High School Kills Color-Coded ID Program 406
theodp writes "Anaheim Union High School District has killed a controversial incentive program that assigned students color-coded ID cards and planners based on state test scores, required those who performed poorly to stand in a separate lunch line and awarded the others with discounts. The program was designed to urge students to raise scores on the California Standards Tests, but it also raised concern among parents and students who said it illegally revealed test scores and embarrassed those who didn't do well."
Wow, just write an 'F' on their forehead (Score:4, Insightful)
Separate lines for lunch? Who could ever think this was a good idea. Sure, let the students doing well get some perks, just don't go around printing "Dumb" on the lesser achieving kids' foreheads. At least they wised up, even if it did take some external pressure to scrap the idea.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Main problem I see would be reversial. Once you've created a social group, even one based on failure, those members of it will seek to make the best of it. It could easily lead to a cool-to-be-dumb situation, where those in the failgroup are proud to be a part of it and look down on the boring lameness of the higher achievers.
Re: (Score:2)
Good on them. If they can make working at McDonalds feel better than doing an interesting job, then so be it.
Re: (Score:3)
The result of a test taken in 5 grade (*1) could adversely affect future asperations through peer pressure of the group.
Note #1: I couldnt find out whether this scheme applied to all or just some of the Standardised Tests and so assume it work across all the tests, which start from Grade 5 (10-11 years old).
Re: (Score:3)
US funds K-12 very well (Score:4, Informative)
In fact, we're near the top for the amount of money we spend per pupil.
The problem is much of that is wasted: bloated administrations, feel-good PC courses that don't help core education, and teachers unions that flat-out admit they don't give a damn about students.
Add to that apathetic parents, and you have a crappy school system that won't get better no matter how much money we pump into it.
Re: (Score:2)
So.... what you're saying is they naturally recreate how social cliques work in high school?
You mean your typically below average intelligence individuals such as jocks and bullies didn't look down upon the high achieving nerds? God damn it must be raining cats and dogs.
Re:Wow, just write an 'F' on their forehead (Score:4, Interesting)
How 'bout this. Starting with 5th grade give $1000 cash per year to each student in the top 5%. Then, the best might have $8000 ready for college and stand a fighting chance of actually being able to pay for it.
Re: (Score:2)
The problem with this is, the kids who need the money will blow it way before college, but if you do something like giving them a bond that they cant cash out til they graduate it removes the incentive for the student (at least until the last year or two of high school when it's not the distant future anymore).
Maybe the best approach would be a combination. $200 cash, and $800 into a bond or CD that matures when they graduate. That way they would have a short term motivation as well as a long term benefit.
Y
Re:Wow, just write an 'F' on their forehead (Score:4, Insightful)
That sounds like a wonderful idea and I would have really loved it as a primary/secondary school student. But, that would have cost my high school $21,000 (400+ graduating class) for my graduating year... not to mention how that profit motive and even survival pressure from home would have further affected cheating at the top.
And why cater to the top 5%? They're already the most likely to get scholarship funding.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And why cater to the top 5%? They're already the most likely to get scholarship funding.
Thank you very much for saying that.
I was just about 3rd in my class. #1 guy was #1 across the board, so he snapped up thousands of dollars of scholarships. I got $800.
#1 guy was from a wealthy, college educated family. He got a car for graduating, had an iphone, went on vacations to other countries, etc. I was from a working-class family, walked 2 km to school, and couldn't afford braces for my teeth or new sneakers. I needed those scholarships more than he did, and arguably, his domestic situation (not to
Re: (Score:3)
You don't get offered money outright for getting a high GPA. Those capable of getting that high GPA through high school, however, are *much* more likely to receive financial aid in the form of scholarships because of their better-honed intellect and writing capabilities.
While it seems callous, to ask about another's daughter: How many competitive scholarships did she apply for? Write papers for?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
This inference is so stupid I gave up my mod points in this article just to point out that the inference you are making is COLOSALLY stupid. Like most glibertarian shibboleths, it has zero basis in fact.
Re: (Score:2)
You've never met an economist, have you?
Re: (Score:2)
I'm no libertarian, but looking back at history, colleges have always responded to an increase in students' ability to pay with higher prices...
Re: (Score:3)
This inference is so stupid I gave up my mod points in this article just to point out that the inference you are making is COLOSALLY stupid. Like most glibertarian shibboleths, it has zero basis in fact.
You may disagree, but I think vim is right about that cause and effect - if a significant percentage of college entrants have subsidies, the price of tuition will tend to increase. Colleges are going to tend to charge as much as they can get away with, and that's not necessarily a bad thing - they want good salaries to attract good teachers and have good lab equipment. It's not "glib" to point out these tradeoffs. Most debated issues involve tradeoffs.
Re: (Score:2)
First thing I'd do is check which line is the longest and then adapt my grades accordingly... 'humiliation' be damned, functionality above everything I say !
All joking apart, how would you manage to give perks to those who do well but _without_ anyone being able to notice that others are not getting said perks and thus by simple logic must be 'dumb' (your words) ?
BTW, I'm not sure everyone with non-top scores are 'dumb'. Frankly, I'm pretty sure I was a big under-achiever at school (15 years ago) simply bec
Re: (Score:2)
All joking apart, how would you manage to give perks to those who do well but _without_ anyone being able to notice that others are not getting said perks and thus by simple logic must be 'dumb' (your words) ?
Open your eyes? I hung out with a rather "diverse" group when I was in H.S. This was before the school equals prison movement got started. So our "hall monitors" were teachers walking from task to task, and an old granny or two. Now a days we have intimidation squads of SWAT and K9 units roaming the halls to teach the serfs they are just slaves to big brother and keep in their place. But I digress.
Anyway, think back to high school a couple decades ago:
1) I get caught in a minor (heck, even major) rule
Re: (Score:2)
The things you describe somehow only seem to work for people who like to "annoy the institution". I'm sure we need our rebels, and in a way I was one too although I never crossed the line where I could get caught for doing something "disturbing" (or even close to it)... I rather was the kid that kept asking the wrong (read: right) questions.
Being observant and critical (and vocal about it) got me in the spotlight probably more than I had anticipated at times, but without exception it always had a positive e
Re: (Score:2)
All joking apart, how would you manage to give perks to those who do well but _without_ anyone being able to notice that others are not getting said perks and thus by simple logic must be 'dumb' (your words) ?
Most of today's schools don't use cash for lunch purchase. Each student has an account that is debited when they go through the line. It would be easy enough to have lower prices be computed for those with better scores. I'm not promoting this idea, just answering your question. It wouldn't be completely invisible, but it could be substantially invisible.
Re: (Score:2)
All joking apart, how would you manage to give perks to those who do well but _without_ anyone being able to notice that others are not getting said perks and thus by simple logic must be 'dumb' (your words) ?
Alternative answer #2... Think of the stereotypical "hot for teacher" pr0n genre... People wanna keep that kind of stuff very quiet, only change would be pairing up would occur based on test scores rather than who catches who's eye... I like this idea, because as an A++ physics student who in his second year of high school physics literally only got two things wrong during the entire year, I get the 23 year old ex- college cheer leader librarian for my "special tutoring session". Heck, even if nothing inap
Re: (Score:2)
All joking apart, how would you manage to give perks to those who do well but _without_ anyone being able to notice that others are not getting said perks and thus by simple logic must be 'dumb' (your words) ?
You'd also be rewarding the wrong kids... there are kids like me out there... when I was in high school, I never did homework, I never studied, I played hookie more often than not in my final year, and I even got kicked out of one high school for telling the headmaster exactly what I thought of him (that he was a pompous self-absorbed officious bureaucrat with no concept of how people actually worked... I was right, but for some reason he didn't appreciate my candor). I also have eidetic memory, and was sti
Re: (Score:2)
I don't see anything wrong with the idea. We're protecting these kids from "humiliation" but it's better to embarass them a bit then to let them fail their way into life where they'll get smacked really hard, no? I like the idea
Re: (Score:2)
I'm pretty sure the kids already know who the dumb ones are anyway. My old school didn't have anything like this program. But if you had asked me to point out the smart kids and the dumbasses, I wouldn't have had any trouble doing it.
Re: (Score:2)
I think we should implement separate lines for lunch in Anaheim City Hall, but I quickly realised it would be pointless as they would all be in the dumb line.
Re: (Score:2)
Which completely ignores how much of ones test scores is not in the control of the student. Resources are tight and children that come from homes where the parents can afford private tutoring have a significant advantage over those that don't. And don't forget about things like learning disorders and poor quality of instruction which might lead to a student getting a poor score.
Then there's the issues that come with immigrants, you'd be surprised at how much effort it takes in some cases to get them up to s
Re: (Score:2)
How would they decide whose doing better?
The practice tests they give all but show you the answers.
Those that don't do well should be embarassed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Isn't motivating children their parents job? I'm saddened that they even came up with an idea like this. Public humiliation is more likely to destroy motivation than provide it.
Re: (Score:2)
Isn't motivating children their parents job? I'm saddened that they even came up with an idea like this. Public humiliation is more likely to destroy motivation than provide it.
I expect it would provide plenty of motivation .... but not necessarily to work harder. They'd better issue the teachers and "high color" kids with bulletproof vests if they roll this out nationwide - someone will crack.
Re: (Score:2)
They'd better issue the teachers and "high color" kids with bulletproof vests if they roll this out nationwide - someone will crack.
In my day, we called it "honor roll", and the names were listed in the hall on a big board. Sometimes the senors got a preferred parking spot or hall pass or something like that. We didn't have FastPass for lunch lines, but it's not a completely wacky extension of honor roll.
Re: (Score:2)
Isn't motivating children their parents job?
Hate to break it to you, but a lot of parents don't do their jobs very well (this is especially true with the more poorly-performing kids). I knew a lot of kids in school who got bad grades, but who had plenty of ability. They didn't excel academically because their parents encouraged them to excel in everything BUT academics. I also knew kids whose parents were basically not even there at all--not even providing for their basic needs, much less encouraging them to excel.
Re: (Score:2)
That's sad. Truly sad. I have trouble even conceiving that. My children and now my grandchildren are treasures. My only regrets in life were the times I feel like I failed them. I made trips to school many, many times to talk with teachers and struggled so hard with my oldest because she lacked motivation. I wish I had done better even though she turned out well but you always feel like you could have done more. To think that parents don't care about their children's future seems impossible to believ
Re: (Score:3)
Anything and everything to motivate them. Coddling children doesn't do them any favors.
Totally agree with you about the codling. However it is one thing to motivate, it is another thing to humiliate. No matter what the intention, this sort of marking probably would lead to a hostile environment - and hence worsen the outcome rather than improve it.
And at the risk of being Godwinned, visibly marking people by categories doesn't have a very good history.
Re: (Score:2)
The US has a history of separate lines ... but that was based on a visible marker that people could not remove
There was the Dunces cap and that didn't work ...
Perhaps the teachers should be visibly marked depending on how their students perform ?
Re: (Score:2)
Ah, the ubiquitous assumption that student's grades are a function of teacher quality, and teacher quality alone.
I hate to break it to you, but there is a substantial fraction of kids who just don't give a shit. You can be the best teacher in the world, but if there's no will from the student to learn, they won't do well.
An education is like a stool. To get a good, solid one, you need three legs: a committed student, a good teacher, and supportive parents.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Those that don't do well should be embarassed (Score:5, Interesting)
Rewarding is far, far better.
In my daughter's school they offer reward cards; they're a bit like loyalty cards. Instead of the old gold stars, they are now given points that can be exchanged for material goods. A point for handing in homework, an extra point for handing it in early, points for winning competitions, be they sports or academic.
By the end of the first year, if you do the minimum, you'll have enough for a Wii remote, cheap mobile phone, or little MP3 player. By the end of the fifth year, if you are a grade A++ student, attend all the after school clubs, etc, you'll have enough for a netbook.
Sounds good to me.
This is one of the new UK academies, if anyone is interested. And, one year in, is the highest ranking school in the somewhat deprived and poverty stricken area we live in.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That sounds like a great plan, so long as it's consistent.
I've seen reward plans like this where the administrators were fickle with handling out points, you could do really good one day, and shitty the next and you'll get rewarded on the shitty day because the administrator was in a good mood. In that case it doesn't do much to help motivate since its no longer a result of MY action, but my superior's disposition.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah! Stand them in the corner with a pointy hat with the word "Dunce" on it! That'll teach them! Rewarding is far, far better. In my daughter's school they offer reward cards; they're a bit like loyalty cards. Instead of the old gold stars, they are now given points that can be exchanged for material goods. A point for handing in homework, an extra point for handing it in early, points for winning competitions, be they sports or academic...
I went to work today. On time even. That makes several days in a row. Where's my gold star? Do I get points for coming to work and doing my job? How many extra points do I get for staying after work to perform server maintenance after hours?
My point here is school used to be the JOB and main purpose in life for damn near every person under the age of 18. Since when does every little action deserve a reward, trophy, or extra "points" for merely doing your JOB? Sure as hell doesn't work that way for th
Re: (Score:3)
You work, you have some disposable income. That some of that income goes to gas/rent/utilities does not change the fact that you have a direct reward for the work that you do. No such thing exists with schoolwork - unless you get some kind of incentive to perform.
You can try to make the situation more complicated through word salads and Gumby-style reaching, but it's really pretty simple.
Work Reward.
Re: (Score:2)
I'd prefer not to give any rewards that don't have any direct connection to their current area of education. The profit motive with little/no oversight always breeds cheating. Furthermore, if that's not so much a problem (though I doubt it), when the rewards stop, they may stop attempting to achieve.
Instead, the goal should always be to satisfy and enhance intellectual curiosity.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If this high school is anything like my old one, I think the smart kids would probably be more embarrassed by this than the dumb ones. I took way more abuse for being smart than any dumbass ever did for being a moron.
Re: (Score:2)
Oh good, give the Jocks just one more reason to feel bad about themselves. That won't have any negative repercussions.
Re:Those that don't do well should be embarassed (Score:4, Insightful)
Flogging? Wimp! We should merely shoot the lowest 10% every year to weed out those who are holding the others back! Second chances be damned...
Re: (Score:2)
Very important question and distinction.
Do you mean shoot the lowest 10% of each graduating class or shoot the lowest 10% of students each year?
Because in the first case you'd start with 100 students in a graduating class and end with 90. In the second case you'd start with 100 and end with 34.
Re: (Score:3)
Give some meaning to a high-school diploma. Many schools promote students out of the school, even students who don't meet minimum the attendance requirements.
Bull fucking shit.
Long story short: I grew up with a chronic illness that kept me out of school for months at a time, I still took the tests and did the busy work and aced everything. The school administration failed to accept my handicap and informed me that I would be stuck in high school until I was 21 due to my absences despite being on the honor roll. And then they had the gall to tell me that I wasn't allowed to take my GED until I was 18.
You only get to graduate if you play their authoritarian game,
Re:Those that don't do well should be embarassed (Score:4, Interesting)
So you hate immigrants and poor people.
But then you say: No, that's not what I said. I said we should punish the people with low-achievement.
And this is where intelligent people point out that you have proposed a policy that would continue to ensure that poor people receive fewer opportunities to improve themselves to improve their path in life and to help make sure that as many immigrants as possible are funneled into that "poor people" bracket regardless of their actual intelligence. Sure, it's not targeted directly at those people, but it includes them far more often than other groups. It's subtle, but you're blind if you can't see it.
So yeah... that's a great plan for furthering the dominance of rich, white, corporate America. And thank God (just the Christian one, of course), because those rich, white, corporate Americans need help right now.
Re: (Score:2)
Next thing you know they'll be putting them in stocks.
So, jocks and cheerleaders to the front again? (Score:2)
Re:So, jocks and cheerleaders to the front again? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Funny. Here in Finland the back of the bus is traditionally reserved for the troublemakers. Just like the back of the classroom. Further away from the authorities (bus driver, teacher), less surveillance.
In the UK we all wanted to ride on the back of the bus - especially the middle seat that looks down the isle. I've no idea why, but I remember learning about Rosa Parks in primary school and wondering why on earth she didn't want to sit at the back.
Re: (Score:3)
Not just in Finland. When I was taking the bus (Long Island, NY), it was jocks and popular kids in the back and nerds in the front. I'd often ride in the first row.
Re: (Score:2)
Same in the US when I was in school.
Re: (Score:3)
I've never understood this, but I grew up in the country. Where I was, your location on the bus was dictated by age. And you looked FORWARD to being at the back of the bus. Back seat was basically the grade 11's and 12's, and it worked its way younger until the youngest at the front.
"What is your classification, student?" (Score:4, Insightful)
"Classification RED, friend computer!"
"I'm sorry, that information is not available at this time."
Re: (Score:2)
Sorry, no car analogy this time ;-)
Don't we already classify students, making it obvious when they do not perform well by putting them in cohorts which take lower division coursework together?
There are a ton of nerds here. Most of us probably took AP coursework throughout HS and some of us may have been honors students in undergrad. We then went on to graduate programs afterward. I want to know how this will be viewed any differently than knowing that you were absolutely terrible in Gym and History classes
Re: (Score:3)
I think its kind of funny that the negative impact of being lower-scoring, instead of driving the kids to become higher-scoring, drove them to complain about how it hurts their feelings. Its so ironic you can taste metal.
Saying it hurts your feelings to be classified as lower achieving has no impact on the reality that one is actually lower achieving. It changes nothing, and you're still dumb whether or not someone says it. If there is anything to learn from this complaint it is that the program did not
Education (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
That would require effort. They chose the path that left it all up to the kids.
Encouragement, not punishment. (Score:2)
By all means reward children for doing well, but certainly not punish those who struggle. Everybody is different and will excel at different subjects and it's entirely possible that some may be undiagnosed dyslexics or even have eyesight issues.
In any case, children should be praised for the work they
Re:Encouragement, not punishment. (Score:4, Insightful)
It's human nature in general - not just for students - that we are more successful and more happy when we do things that challenge and excite us than when we do things for the sake of rewards or to prevent punishment. What's even worse is that once we've done something for reward it is even less appealing when we stop receiving the award again.
For example, somebody who take photos for fun decides to become a professional photographer. Once they start getting paid it becomes yet another job and loses the fun. Even when they quit doing it for pay it still doesn't hold the appeal it did before.
The same goes for children and education. Telling a class they will get a pizza party if they all pass an exam is an awful strategy for motivating students. If you instead instill excitement and interest in the topic itself they will not only do well on the exam but they often will go BEYOND the requirements of the exam because they are excited about the topic.
Re: (Score:2)
They need to put you in charge of that school system. I've already posted on this topic or I would mod you up. Most intelligent post I've seen so far.
Re: (Score:2)
We stopped offering rewards based on cohort goal attainment a long time ago. We found that students would get the bad news of not being eligible to receive their prizes, get their assignments/tests back, then, later, swap scores to find out who "screwed it up" for everyone else. That child was then mocked and ostracized.
What is best, as you say, is to work hard at finding the best ways to interest *every* student in the classroom. And that's hard work.
I bet some kids revel in being in the "bad" lines. (Score:3, Interesting)
For the same reason kids wear their pants around their asses, if it makes them look "bad," they would revel in it. These are the same kids flunking out already anyway. Perhaps if you just come right out and call their behavior 'stupid' instead of trying to coddle them, perhaps if you worry more about their futures instead of worry about offending them, it might help some tiny fraction of them.
In today's culture, I picture the kids in the "smart" lines being bullied and ostracized instead of the other way around, though.
Re: (Score:2)
They revel in it as a defense mechanism. They're not going to sulk in the line. They're going to find people like them and claim that their area is better by virtue of them being there. It's called being human.
Take a bad kid, teach him/her well, let the child show mom/dad/grandma/social worker how amazingly hard they've worked in school and you'll see that attitude change. But it won't change without that special attention... the special attention the high achievers receive from advanced elementary school
You will know soon enough... (Score:2)
"revealed test scores and embarrassed those who didn't do well"
Sheesh! That will happen soon enough. "Do you want fries with that..."
'nuf said.
Unintended effects (Score:5, Insightful)
(A) Test scores are heavily correlated with demographic factors such as race and social class. In fact, there's some evidence that they're correlated more with those sorts of demographics than they are with factors like time spent studying. So whether it was intended or not, it's quite possible that the effect of this would have been to separate out, with official sanction, the generally wealthier white and Asian-American kids from the mostly poorer black and Hispanic kids, and treat the first group better than the second group.
(B) For kids who's friends are generally anti-intellectual, they might be more embarrassed to be in the "smart" line rather than the "stupid" line. If you're in a crowd where most everybody is heading nowhere in life and knows it, they will often single out the people who are going somewhere for bullying to try to make themselves feel better about their utter lack of prospects.
(C) Threats only get kids to fake learning, not to really learn stuff. You can get kids to pretend to go to study groups but really just hang out with friends. You can get kids to cram for the next exam and promptly forget everything the next day. You can get kids to cheat on their test to avoid school or parental consequences. But you can't get kids to really learn and internalize what they're supposed to know with threats - for that you need to actually give them a goal that their learning will help accomplish.
Re: (Score:3)
Here's another way of looking at it:
Imagine a society in which only a couple of you know has anything beyond a high school education. This could be in the inner city, it could be in Appalachia, it could be in the middle of rural Kansas. There's basically no difference in expected income between those who made the effort to get a high school degree and those who didn't, because most everybody who can get a job is working at about $6-10 an hour (retail, fast food, etc).
Now, when a kid in that society gets int
It's about money (Score:5, Insightful)
This is what comes from tying performance to pay. I know schools here are awarded more money from the state as well as teacher performance bonuses for better scores on standardized tests. It's had this kind of push here as well. Lots of schools have even been caught cheating to get their scores up. Desperation brings on this kind of craziness.
Re:It's about money (Score:4, Interesting)
Not sure if she has that job anymore.
Re: (Score:3)
What is the option? Let the one disrupt the class so none are educated? We (in education) are under the tyranny of the minority, catering to those on the dark fringes. It surely isn't helping the 80% that want to be there and learn. Penalize the good because we're too afraid to penalize the bad?
Great idea! (Score:3)
Let's start by color coding the ID's of the people who thought of this plan to a bright red banning them from using the lunchrooms altogether.
AFAIK, the most effective way to motivate children to perform better in school is to actually treat them the same as better performing children; people tend to behave in the way you treat them.
....and made the smart kids targets as well (Score:3)
As a parent I'd be more worried about my kid being targeted for being smart than stupid. Maybe in addition to a nice bracelet they should give the good scorers Jujitsu classes as well so they can protect themselves from the jocks.
Re: (Score:2)
That was my thought also. "Billy? You're in the green line? Hey, everyone! Billy's a NEEEERRRRDDDD!!!!" Cue a choice for Billy: 1) Years of torment if he maintains those high grades, or 2) Being left along if he drops his scores back down to average. Way to promote being average instead of pushing yourself to get your best potential.
Secret ?!? (Score:2)
What, test scores are secret now ? So much easier to manipulate them in that case...
Or better yet.. (Score:2)
Actually fail them when they fail? Rather than slow a senior English class down to the level of the kid with a third grade reading level, just fail the people that can't keep up. That is motivation in itself. There are no one worries about bad grades or failing anymore because they know that they will be babied through school and not have to lift a finger to get their diploma.
If it weren't for No Child Left Behind then schools wouldn't have as much need to come up with off the wall programs like this.
Alfie Kohn (Score:2)
Alfie Kohn's body of work makes good reading for a sensible approach to education based on how kids actually learn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfie_Kohn [wikipedia.org]
In this instance, his book "Punished by Rewards" is required reading.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=alfie+kohn&x=0&y=0 [amazon.com]
Essentially, when we reward for high scores (instead of focusing on improving actual learning), we get these kinds of decisions and further reinforcement of counterproductive outcome
What is this? (Score:2)
No Lunch Left Behind?
Looks like the district didn't have metrics (Score:2)
That way the parents would have had an idea how their kids were going to benefit from it. It removes all the emotion from it and all the "good kids deserve perks" or "humiliation works to make things better" wh
Re:Or... (Score:4, Insightful)
Standardized exams are awful measures of intelligence or ability. They are strictly measures of how well you do at taking exams. This is one of the greatest failings of our education system - that we teach to exams instead of encouraging creativity, instilling excitement, and developing real world skills.
And this is coming from somebody who was a very good test taker.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm open to ideas for alternatives, though.
Re: (Score:2)
I see that written a lot.
What I don't see written about are the problems associated with poor, rural or otherwise backwater high schools graduating students at the top of their class who are not only unprepared for college, but also less educated than their counterparts at "better" schools in a different part of the state of country.
That, incidentally, is what's behind the push for standardised testing.
Say what you want about tests and test-t
Re: (Score:2)
I'm always amazed that people think the schools should raise children. It's the parents responsibility to motivate their children, after all, every child is different and what will motivate one child may well destroy another one's desire to learn at all. This kind of crap has no place in a school system where the struggle for acceptance from your peers is already a vicious war. Just what we need more nastiness but from those supposedly there to provide support and help. How about mandatory study hall wh
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
God forbid you should feel bad about being a dickhead. You know, some people really are stupid, or at least not as smart as you think you are. Some people put forth effort yet fail to achieve. How about those people? Should they be humiliated? Maybe if you have a child and he's a difficult one to potty train you'd make him walk around with a diaper on his head to motivate him?
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not all crybaby. I have a nasty redneck side and things like you bring it out in me. I think that's why I despise you so, you make me feel bad about having the evil part of me come out. I don't like you and if you were gone I doubt anyone would miss you. Have a nice day. :)
Re: (Score:2)
In the real world , being a smartass who thinks he's better than everyone else , isn't going to be very useful either.
The situation described is the exact problem with the school system : you are taught that you are not allowed to make any mistakes. ,and how to blame it on someone else.
But everyone makes mistakes , so what they actually learn is how to hide that they made mistakes
The best quality in an employee is someone who can admit mistakes and learn from them , not someone who believes they are perfect
Re: (Score:3)
Think about that.
Now read your post.
Now look at me.
Now look at your post.
Now look at Hognoxious.
Now who is insightful?
Re: (Score:3)
There is also the fact if they are marked as stupid then they will work to meet that expectation.
I have seen a lot of actually smart and talented kids just barely pass school, just because they were labeled as such. Usually a kid at an early age will find what his place in life is and stick with it.
Oh well I guess I am not smart, but I am good at sports so I will be the perfect jock. ...
Well I am not good at sports but people think I am funny so I will be the class clown.
Kids find their Cliques to belong in
Re: (Score:2)
Not to mention, what do you do if a kid just happens to like chartreuse?
Re: (Score:2)
There is also the fact if they are marked as stupid then they will work to meet that expectation.
I have seen a lot of actually smart and talented kids just barely pass school, just because they were labeled as such. Usually a kid at an early age will find what his place in life is and stick with it.
Social scientists studied this and one (rather unethical) experiment went like this: at the beginning of the year they gave a teacher a completely random list of the new students with notes about their intellectual capabilities, a fake IQ-test result, if you will. Then they compared the students results at the end of the year with the random list. They matched rather closely.
Once a child is pegged as being a penny, it is pretty hard to become a quarter. Not because the child is unable or unwilling, but beca
Re: (Score:3)
Once a child is pegged as being a penny, it is pretty hard to become a quarter. Not because the child is unable or unwilling, but because continuous lack of expectation from the teacher is killing all forms of motivation.
Even worse - the teacher doesn't even have to supply these expectations - the kids will do it themselves. A similar experiment was done where they gave a bunch of little kids a math test, and then told half of them they did well, and half they did poorly then tracked their future math prospects. The kids they told did poorly ended up doing poorly going forward - even if those kids had actually done well!
Similarly, they (whoever "they" were) took a bunch of kids and gave them some word puzzles, and afterward
Re: (Score:2)
Stupid doesn't have much to do with it. The education system, especially high school and lower, rewards memory ability above all else. You can have shit-poor reasoning and logical skills and be the top student if you have a really good memory.
I'm sort of the opposite. I have good reasoning and logical skills but a shit-poor memory. I always tried to beat the system by learning the underlying rules and trying to come up with algorithms to allow me to derive information without memorizing massive data sets. I
Re: (Score:2)
Memory ability? You sure? In high school, I had to stop taking biology because it was too much memorisation. Memorising Shakespeare passages was difficult. And yet I was still near the top of my class in an academic-oriented high school. University was another story - when the minimum high-school average to apply for Engineering is 75%, and the actual cut-off is much higher than that, you know you're competing some of the top people in the area. Still, memorisation for some things is key, and I never coul
Re: (Score:2)
christ forbid that any american should feel ever feel bad about being stupid
... after all plenty of stupid people became President.
Re: (Score:3)
That being said, the kids who didn't learn the material well, but did a lot of busy work at home usually passed as well with similar gra
Re: (Score:2)
Every day I see more and more items coming out of our educational system that make me ask 'where the heck are the parents' when these dumbass policies are being implemented?
Working in the brothel?
Re: (Score:3)
Every day I see more and more items coming out of our educational system that make me ask 'where the heck are the parents' when these dumbass policies are being implemented?
Probably at work in a highly classist environment where certain "grades" of people have to share cubes in open plan, some have their own cubes in open plan, some have their own "full wall" cubes in non-open plan, some have an office... Management is allowed to park in the nearby attached parking garage, minions get to find their own spot far away, etc. Probably the plan makes a lot of sense to them.