Florida Teen Expelled and Arrested For Science Experiment 1078
First time accepted submitter ruhri writes "A 16 year-old girl in Florida not only has been expelled from her high school but also is being charged as an adult with a felony after replicating the classic toilet-bowl cleaner and aluminum foil experiment. This has quite a number of scientists and science educators up in arms. The fact that she's African American and that the same assistant state attorney has decided not to charge a white teenager who accidentally killed his brother with a BB gun has some thinking whether this is a case of doing science while black."
Playing the race card again (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
The democrats are a center right party, we have no left party. The US has huge institutionalized race problems. You can simply compare punishments for the same crime meted out by our justice system to prove that.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Interesting)
The democrats are a center right party, we have no left party.
Depends on your ideological POV, doesn't it? Consider...
* From the Limbaugh standpoint, the DNC is a frothing group of neo-marxists out to take down the USA by any means possible.
* From the MSNBC fan's standpoint, the DNC is a fair-minded champion of tolerance and diversity whose policy set sits far to the right of that found in the EU.
* From my standpoint, both the DNC and the RNC are a bunch of posturing hypocritical leeches on society who don't give a shit about anything but gaining power, money and control. Their only real difference is in how they each want these things exerted, and on whom, but their goals are the same so long as they are the ones in charge when the dust settles.
Ideology? Pfft! That's simply the truncheon they use to keep their respective troops in line.
A pox on both your frickin' houses.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
Right wing dictators the world over and throughout history disagree with you.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Interesting)
Embezzling their oil wealth? By taking multinationals mostly out of the trough and using what would have been corporate profit on social programs? I think that you are confusing embezzling the native population with removing predatory companies from taking their customary lion's share of the national wealth. The people elected him and loved him dearly right to the very end. For the most part those who disliked Chavez wanted to go back to the status quo of the rich always getting richer at the expense of both the environment and the poor.
There are systems that can work well which are not heavily capitalistic. I'm not a huge fan of Castro but, read about their vermicomposting program. I am jealous of them because it sounds like they are building a quite sustainable economy on their island, and probably eat better than the average USA consumer (that is what we are called now, right?). One of the main reasons they are able (forced) to do this is that they aren't "helped" by the agrichemicals that US corporations would love to be able provide them with.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
Castro yes, Chavez no.
Chavez I don't think goes to the level of dictator. He was elected and using elections no worse than many precincts in America stayed in power. He was definitely authoritarian though.
Yes, I think you're a pretty pathetic dictator if you rely on the democratic will of the people.
Castro and Cuba are an odd example, because they were basically forced to become paranoid thanks to the US's economic embargo and earlier attempst to overthrow Castro. They are in a similar position to Israel, i.e. with implacable enemies at very close range.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
To pretend that racism has completely faded away is to ignore reality, however uncomfortable it may make some people feel.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
What does a kid with a BB gun have to do with this? Nothing, but it "creates the narrative".
Funny, if you drop the quotes, instead of "creating a narrative", the BB gun story actually creates a narrative. Namely a narrative where an ADA is out for blood in one instance of possibly reckless behavior from a child that didn't cause anybody any harm, but ignored another instance of possibly reckless behavior from a child that resulted in the loss of life. Whether this has anything to do with race is of secondary importance. The primary issue is the apparent lack of consistency in the severity of prosecution from this ADA.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Informative)
It's only an apparent lack of consistency if you use the two items to create the context in which to judge the responses. Here's the more likely scenario:
* There was no punishment forthcoming in the accidental shooting case because, after determining that there was no intent involved, and that it was, in fact, accidental, no punishment was deserved. Since there was no possibility of the parents suing themselves for damages, or that affecting the greater population, it got left at that.
* The incident on school property was punished because A) There was clearly an intent to make the explosion and B) it was on school property. That means lots of children who could potentially have been harmed, and that means lots of parents who could potentially sue the school system. Even if no one got injured, the potential for injury might be enough to have a jury in a civil suit feel that the plaintiff is "entitled" to "damages."
In that second case, everyone suffers. If the school has to pay out money to one set of irate parents, other suits will likely follow as everyone thinks they need to "get theirs," too. But guess who is on the hook? The school district, funded by property taxes or whatever they use in Florida. Thus, the community is the ones putting up the money to pay out to some jack-ass members of the community who want to take advantage of the situation. Being able to say "Look, no one got hurt but we have dealt with the perpetrator to the fullest extent of the law" goes a long way in staving off civil complaints, or having them be validated by a jury if someone thinks of doing it anyway.
It's all a CYA move. Does it suck? Yes. is it fair? No. Is life fair? Hell no. But unfortunately, we live in a chicken-shit, overly litigious society where these things happen. My mother is a public school teacher and the district where she teaches has had to deal with things like this in the past. "Science" wasn't involved, but the schools have been sued in the past, and in one incident $5,000,000 was awarded for "negligence" by the administration because two guys were fighting over a girl and one went through a plate glass window. Public schools are strapped enough for cash as it is, and losing $5,000,000 when you're already in budget shortfalls due to declining real estate values (and thus property tax revenue) is tough.
I would wager anything that was what they were concerned with above anything else.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
It is standard practice. Charge as much as you can possibly get away with and plea bargain down from there.
In that case, why wasn't the "standard practice" applied to the boy?
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
The boy had no intent. It was an ACCIDENTAL shooting.
And you're not mentioning that the mother and the boyfriend aren't being charged with endangering the life of a child by letting a 10 y.o. and a 13 y.o. shoot BB guns at each other.
In the real world you need permission to do things that will explode
But you don't need permission to shoot someone in the head?
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:4, Insightful)
What does a kid with a BB gun have to do with this? Nothing, but it "creates the narrative".
Funny, if you drop the quotes, instead of "creating a narrative", the BB gun story actually creates a narrative. Namely a narrative where an ADA is out for blood in one instance of possibly reckless behavior from a child that didn't cause anybody any harm, but ignored another instance of possibly reckless behavior from a child that resulted in the loss of life. Whether this has anything to do with race is of secondary importance. The primary issue is the apparent lack of consistency in the severity of prosecution from this ADA.
I have an older sister, and she would of gladly shot me in the head with a BB gun growing up. It would of gone well with the other crap she did to her little brother growing up.
Not saying this girl did it on purpose, but I'm sure I'm not the only person who had a cruel older sibling.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
That seems quite reasonable to me.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
The way I interpreted the summary is as follows: "Case A wasn't prosecuted, case B was. Case B was less deserving of prosecution than case A. One difference between the two cases is attribute R [...]
(Emphasis mine)
Therein lies the problem: "One" difference. Thing is, there are likely a whole host of differences in the two cases. I'm not saying that either case should or should not be prosecuted, but I am saying that if the two are going to be compared, then how about including more pertinent contrasts than the blindingly obvious subtext of 'he's white and she's black'? You know, contrasts like circumstance, motive, intent...?
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
how about including more pertinent contrasts than the blindingly obvious subtext of 'he's white and she's black'? You know, contrasts like circumstance, motive, intent...?
So you think that the black girl had deeply sinister motives/intents in highly dubious circumstances, whereas the white kid was self-evidently just involved in some light-hearted play that went wrong?
There's a word for those sort of assumptions.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
OK. How about she was a straight A student and he wasn't?
I'm pretty sure those were covered. For example, she was exploring science and he wasn't. Her motive was to learn; his wasn't. She intended to be better at science; he didn't. As you can clearly see all those other differences point more strongly at a bias, and exploring those things makes it more likely that "she was black and he wasn't" is the big difference that the DA actually cares about.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
You might as well try to argue that because one child was a boy and the other a girl, that this story is evidence of sexism.
The more pertinent differences are:
1. One was an accident and one was intentional.
2. One will be perceived by the public as involving a bomb and one will be perceived by the public as involving a gun or possibly even a "toy."
3. There was a recent very public bombing. To fail to prosecute in what could be perceived by the public as a "bombing" case could cause negative political pressure against the DA. Despite the recent public shootings, there are many with a lot of political clout who would see prosecution of a BB gun incident as a move toward stricter gun control and act against it.
I'd say these factors likely weighed a lot more heavily than either child's race. I may not agree that they should be considered factors, and I find it likely that this case will be thrown out, but I have a feeling that if the children's races were reversed (or the same), the situation would remain identical, except we wouldn't have to listen to idiotic stories about how the DA is "racist."
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
How about interpreting it this way. "Case A wasn't prosecuted, Case B was. At first glance, Case B appears to be less deserving of prosecution than Case A, but Case B took place on school property. In Case B there was clearly intent to create an explosion and given recent high-visibility events involving 1) kids being murdered at a school, and 2) innocent bystanders being killed/maimed by an explosion it is predictable that any explosion at a school will be highly scrutinized. Furthermore, in Case B, the so-called experiment appears to have been done without supervision, permission or any safeguards making the "experiment" excuse seem unlikely. Additionally, schools have published weapons policies and zero-tolerance policies, with mandatory consequences for violation. Had Case B taken place away from school property and/or under controlled conditions, it is extremely unlikely that Case B would have been prosecuted."
Note the complete absence of Attribute R. Also note that there was no judgment on the merits of the school's policies. As the parent of a student that was suspended for a zero-tolerance policy violation that even the principal thought was ridiculous, I have strong feelings about zero-thought policies, but that's a rant for another day.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Informative)
Or it could just be a case of two different prosecutors having different standards
RTFA. Same prosecutor in both cases.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:4, Insightful)
Proportionality. That's what the kid with a BB gun has to do with this. An accidental death caused by a white boy gets no punishment. An accidental chemical hazard that kills no one, but is caused by a black girl gets charged with felonies. That's disproportionate. What exactly is the non-racist explanation for that lack of proportionality?
Gateway drugs (Score:5, Insightful)
What exactly is the non-racist explanation for that lack of proportionality?
Think "war on drugs" logic. This chemistry experiment ended up producing what is technically an improvised explosive device, and IEDs like this are a "gateway drug" of sorts to IEDs that terrorists have used within the past month to kill or maim dozens of people.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Funny)
Proportionality. That's what the kid with a BB gun has to do with this. An accidental death caused by a white boy gets no punishment. An accidental chemical hazard that kills no one, but is caused by a black girl gets charged with felonies. That's disproportionate. What exactly is the non-racist explanation for that lack of proportionality?
Maybe they're just sexist?
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Funny)
The BB gun kid was excercising his American right to hold arms; The science student was engaged in an act of Godless, materialist alchemy.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Interesting)
As much as I want the post to be funny, I'm slowly thinking it might be truth. You just need to look at the esteemed leaders of the House Committee on Science.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
"What exactly is the non-racist explanation"
1. The incidents have nothing to do with each other
2. The circumstances are not even remotely similar
3. One was on school property, the other not
4. One was apparently an accident while the other was deliberate
5. People are absolutely paranoid about improvised explosives after the Boston thing
I completely agree that the kid is getting shafted, but put the damned race cards away.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
I used to dismiss things like "driving while black" until, after a fracas about one such incident in New Jersey, several NJ state troopers came forward and said that it was "unofficial" policy. It's also been statistically documented. If I knew I was more likely to get pulled over because of the color of my skin, I'd be damn resentful for the rest of my life. Want an ever better example? Check out the racial stats on Mayor-for-life "Bill of Rights No Longer Applies" Bloomberg's stop and frisk police state program. Also, given how absurd the government's reaction is, I don't blame anyone for playing the race card or using any other trick to do something about this. I thought it was a temporary suspension, which is no big deal, but apparently she "will be forced to complete her diploma through an expulsion program". WTF? Given the absurdity of "zero tolerance" (aka "zero brains") policies, the principal may have little choice. He did say she meant no harm. But being charged with a felony? WTF? Nobody was hurt. Nobody was likely to be hurt. Schoolyard fights have bigger physical consequences. Since the state has prosecutorial discretion, forget any nonsense about them not having any choice. If I'd been prosecuted this way for some of the "experiments" my brothers and I did as teenagers, I'd be doing life.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
Thirty years ago, my high school chemistry teacher taught our (A.P.) class how to make some explosives. What better way to effectively demonstrate exothermic reactions?
The fact that this nonsense is also occurring in what (IIRC) is the Florida county with the highest teen pregnancy rate is further reinforcement of my belief that, despite all the "STEM! STEM! STEM!" cries, corporate-owned America really wants to keep most people sick and stupid. They've taken a girl who showed some interest and aptitude in real lab science and effectively put her on a welfare track.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
If I'd been prosecuted this way for some of the "experiments" my brothers and I did as teenagers, I'd be doing life.
No kidding. We'd be under the jail. There used to be a time in this great land of ours when kids could play with things like black powder, acetylene, and sodium and all we'd get is a finger wag by the authorities and maybe have to pay for a trash can we would turn inside out.
So would it be all right if... (Score:5, Interesting)
Suppose that she had been a he, had been white, had been the star quarterback and was expelled and charged as an adult for exactly the same act.
No one would say it was about race or anything else of that sort. Would that make it any less outrageous?
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
I would say one could easily lead to the other.
Much like a troubled child does not fear suspension/detention/principals office visits, once you incarcerate enough people a society is no longer going to see that as being outside the norm.
Via the War on (some) Drugs we have made sure that prison is merely a fact of life for many subcultures and no longer out of the norm or to be feared. The War on these drugs is one of the most racist policies we have, NYCs stop and frisk statistics show this as do prosecution rates. A nice middle class kid in college busted for possession is going to get a stern talking too and maybe a visit from the police, a poor kid relaxing after work is going to jail.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm probably going to be crucified for this, but I think he has a good point. There's nothing anywhere to indicate that blacks are genetically more prone to violence on any level. There is nothing anywhere to indicate that they are inherently inferior. However one thing that does stand out is black culture in the US. Note how different it is in the US compared to everywhere else in the world.
First generation or recent generation black Americans tend to be some of the most dignified people I know, and that includes blacks who have served in the military. But the ones who have been here for numerous generations, especially the inner city ones, are more often than not a bunch of douchebags. Many among them literally call having good grades "acting white" and look down upon it.
Again, the mere fact that they're black doesn't predicate them into being that way. However they themselves are equally guilty of establishing the stereotype that they behold. To blame everything on white people doesn't do anything to fix the problem, not to mention is just an asshole thing to do.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Informative)
She is being charged as an adult, so I don't think the records will be sealed. We are thus talking about seriously impairing someones life over mixing a couple cleaning agents in a plastic bottle.
Lets not (Score:5, Interesting)
Lets not attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.
And in this case, I hardly believe its about one being black,although it could play a part, it beingthe us,it seems more a thing about one being gun related and the other science related.
We all know what many americans hate most.
Re:Lets not (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd like to believe that too. I really would.
So explain to me how a white teenager who shoots and kills his brother doesn't deserve to be charged with anything, while the same prosecutor decides that a black teenager who didn't injure anyone needs an adult felony conviction to show her that "there are consequences to actions.".
Perhaps they aren't being racist on purpose, but that's hardly a consolation to the student. Sufficently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.
Re:Lets not (Score:5, Insightful)
I also wonder how it is even possible to charge a 16yo as an adult. Those age limits are put in place for a reason - arbitrarily lifting them because some kid did something "exceptionally stupid" makes them worthless.
And this is really not something that should be punished at all. Other than for doing it on school grounds, presumably without proper supervision and safety measures.
Unintended discovery (Score:5, Insightful)
The girl wanted to find out what happens if she mixes aluminum and drain cleaner. Her findings: under the experimental conditions (unsupervised, on school property, post-9/11), there is a fizz and a bang, a bunch of adults overreact, and you get charged with a felony. :-(
Re:Lets not (Score:5, Informative)
This girl essentially made an IED.
If you think mixing toilet cleaner and aluminum foil is essentially making an IED, then you'd be perfect for a modern school's zero-tolerance enforcement officer. Personally I'd go for the potassium permanganate and glycerine experiment, or dropping metallic sodium into water. I suppose they qualify as WMD's.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Lets not (Score:5, Insightful)
You still aren't explaining, without using race, how one kid who broke the law needs to have the most extreme charges possible filed agasint her, while another who broke a much more serious law (manslaughter) gets nothing.
The thing I find particularly telling is that nobody involved is arguing that this is just. The argument is that a law was technically broken, so they have no choice but to charge her. So why doesn't that argument apply to both people?
Re:Lets not (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Lets not (Score:5, Interesting)
Speaking of double standards, I think it's rather unfair to jump to the conclusion that the DA charged her because she's black. You'd need to show a history of bias to make an insinuation like that less than libelous. The Huffington Post op-ed [huffingtonpost.com] makes loud protestations that it's not accusing anyone of anything, which might be enough to avert a libel charge. It does fall far short of decency, though. Mr. Lava makes no attempt to consider other possible differences between the cases of the white boy and the black girl, like the age difference between the kids or the fact that the BB gun accident happened at home and the chemistry accident happened at school.
Actually, I think you are wrong.
The girl who killed her brother was 13 and she held a gun 6 inches from her brothers head and fire it. Even if it was just an accident, she purposely put a gun (bb gun, but still a gun) to the head of her brother and pulled the trigger. She knew it was a bb gun, she knew it shot bb's. And yet, she still put it to the head of her brother and pulled the trigger.
You grasp that yet? That girl is not being charged. At 13, she is more then old enough to know better then to put a gun to anyone's head and pull the trigger. I knew better then that when i was 13, shit, I knew better then that when I was 7 (first time i got to play with a bb gun).
So, we have a case, where a girl purposely put a gun to someones head and killed them, and is not being charged. Then we have this case where a girl does an science experiment on school grounds, made a very small explosion, and she is getting charged as an adult. No one was hurt. She wasn't trying to hurt anyone, she was just repeating a science experiment. Did she do wrong? yes, she should of been supervised, or at least, not on school grounds when she did that.
So, what is the difference between these 2 stories? 2 young girls, one is 13, and the other is 16. While there is a difference in age, it's not really that much. And it doesn't matter, as both should of known better then to do what they did. So what is the difference? One girl is white and the other is black. And the white girl did a far worse thing, far worse. Even thinking the bb gun was unloaded is no excuse for pointing it at the head of someone, at close range and pulling the trigger.
So you keep saying there isn't any proof that the charges are racial motivated and those of us who can grasp the obvious will keep discussing them.
For the record, I am white, and if I was the DA, that white girl would of faced charges (as a kid, not as an adult) and the black girl wouldn't of.
Re:Lets not (Score:5, Insightful)
Lets not attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.
And in this case, I hardly believe its about one being black,although it could play a part, it beingthe us,it seems more a thing about one being gun related and the other science related.
We all know what many americans hate most.
While there is a theory for that, it doesn't line up with the statements released. They're specifically citing the dangerous nature of the girls activities and the hallowed ground aspects of a school along with actions need consequences. I'm all for punishing the girl. Having actually read a few of the articles she did something stupid. Detention would be light. A suspension for a few days should be the most she gets in my opinion. Expulsion and charges are extremely overboard and charging her as an adult comes out of nowhere, considering both the lack of malice, the lack of injury, and uprightness of the accused. She didn't run away she was there when they came for her and owned up for her actions. She had support from students, teachers, and the principal directly. If this isn't a case for SOME sort of leniency what is?
I don't think that this is race related (Score:5, Informative)
Public schools have morphed into (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd have a rap sheet a mile long if I was in school and I only graduated 14y ago. And I didn't even do anything bad!
Re:Public schools have morphed into (Score:5, Insightful)
That coupled with "zero tolerance" which equates to "no thinking by staff" we are ruining a generation of kids.
At least we are teaching them that those with authority and political power are not to be trusted.
America has become pussy nation (Score:5, Insightful)
America is a bunch of pussies now. Had something like this happened in the 50s-80s..maybe even the 90s, the result would have been a stern reprimand and at most a couple days suspension. This "Daddy" syndrome needs to end. I doubt even the French would freak out the way the school and DA have.
Re:America has become pussy nation (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, I suspect if this had happened 20 to 30 years ago, there would not even have been a reprimand for performing the experiment, rather using said experiment (if it was considered a failure), as a learning experience to figure out where the student went wrong.
At most, I would have been yelled at for not using a fume closet...
Hell, I went to school in South Africa in the late 80's early 90's.... our science labs had green and black marks all over the ceiling from various "failed" but awesome experiments :)
Re:America has become pussy nation (Score:4)
There are props that I made for Video productions I did in high school (87-91) what would have gotten me thrown in jail today.
I spray painted a plastic water gun black for one production. That in itself would have gotten me expelled, thrown in jail, or worse, but then it didn't even get me in trouble. We ran around the grounds taking video for another production, and who knows what that would have caused.
In those days I didn't usually feel that school admin. was all that enlightened... but they were wise and patient by today's standards.
Re:America has become pussy nation (Score:5, Interesting)
Shoot. When I was in high school (in the very early 1980s), we made nitroglycerin and nitrogen triiodide as part of chemistry class.
The instructions for making nitroglycerin were in the high school chemistry text book, and it even helpfully explained how to improve the rate of the reaction for faster production.
The guys making nitrogen triiodide were doing so in the enclosed vent chamber, and they sternly warned the instructor not to throw open the door. He failed to heed their warnings, and it exploded and burned off his hair and eyebrows. There were no lectures or discipline -- he acknowledged that they had carefully warned him not to be careless.
What they did with the liquid suspension was rather creative. :) It's basically inert while in suspension, but very unstable when dry. So they took eye droppers and wandered the halls of the school, randomly dropping drops of it on the floor. It dried in time for classes to swich. Lots of little firecracker bangs as people walked down the hallway and activated the dried samples on the floor. :)
As a junior high student (and high school student), I used to go around the school demonstrating potassium permanganate and glycerin for various classes. It was a great way to get young minds interested in the sciences and fascinated with chemistry.
Now, all 4 of my children have had high school chemistry (youngest is just now finishing it up). There is NO experimentation or lab work -- they are not allowed to touch any chemicals. The teacher is not even allowed to do the potassium permanganate experiment -- it is deemed too likely to cause students to become terrorists. I'm thoroughly disgusted by what has happened to the educational process in this country.
My oldest is graduating college in 2 days. Over the last 4 years, he has brought home horror stories about the rigid mindset that he has experienced in the classroom. Nearly all the college instructors (and this is at a large public university) absolutely insist that their perspective be parroted back -- there is zero tolerance for discussion and debate. People with differing beliefs and perceptions are publicly ridiculed and humiliated.
When I was in college at Texas A&M, my philosophy prof was the faculty advisor for the Gay and Lesbian student association. Despite the fact that he and I shared very few common positions on the topics discussed and written about in class, we got along well. He commended me at the end of the class, saying that I had presented my positions with clarity and precision, and I achieved a high A in his class. Apparently, that experience would be rare now.
Re:America has become pussy nation (Score:4, Interesting)
By today's standards: what a waste of time and money. How is that going to help at standardized test time.
Really... just about every institution needs to be wiped and started again.
Weapon (Score:4, Insightful)
So now anything that blows up is automatically a weapon? I hope their school buses don't run on gas or diesel engines, then they would have to charge all the bus drivers with bringing weapons to school every day.
This is almost as stupid as suspending a 7 year old for having a pastry that's vaguely gun-shaped.
http://www.loweringthebar.net/2013/03/pastry-gun.html [loweringthebar.net]
Re:Weapon (Score:5, Funny)
Oh sure, let the kid have his pastry, then the next thing you know, he's lunging at you with a banana.
Every boy used to do this (Score:5, Interesting)
When I was in school, it was basically a full time job for many of us boys to figure out ways to make ever larger and more dramatic explosions happen. We used to fill trash bags full of methane from the lab, seal them with tape, then release them with a lit fuse and watch this huge fireball in the sky (I stopped before the principal took notice, so I didn't get caught:). I mean, kids just do stuff like that.
The difference today is the zero-tolerance rules in many public schools where even a little 6-year-old boy making a shape of a gun with his hand and going "bang!" at another kid is grounds for suspension.
As usual, bureaucracy gets it wrong. That girl should be reinstated and an apology should be issued, otherwise she'll be barred for life from many professions (albeit, as a minor theoretically her record is sealed, but in reality she's screwed).
And racism? That was just an extra little tidbit the OP added to spice things up. Ridiculous.
Re:Every boy used to do this (Score:5, Insightful)
She is being tried as an adult, as such, the records will not be sealed. She is unfortunately fucked for life if she is found guilty...
And I really hope that whatever judge gets this case, tosses it out for stupidity reasons, and bitch slaps the educational establishment for this travesty.
Re:Every boy used to do this (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't count on it...
What science? (Score:5, Insightful)
Was this really a science experiment? She was mixing household chemicals in a plastic bottle on school property. It had nothing to do with her science class. It's more likely she got this stuff out of the janitor's closet or something like that. It sounds more like a kid being stupid rather than one experimenting.
Not that I agree with the penalty in any way. Detention or suspension would be ok here since no real harm came from it. It doesn't merit police involvement, or comparison to an accidental shooting.
Re:What science? (Score:5, Insightful)
On the one hand, you're right, and calling it a "science project" and a s"science fair experiment" is playing with language.
On the other hand, since when should science encompass things only inside science class? Whether the experiment was "does the explosion really happen?" (as claimed), or "how will people react to this awesome explosion" (also likely), it's still no stretch to call it science. So the one thing I disagree with you on is this apparent dismissal.
But, I think overall you and I are in agreement. In my view there is are appropriate and inappropriate place to do such an experiment where you have an idea that the result might be something like an explosion. Maybe doing this type on one's own on school grounds is inappropriate -- though I'm sure there are arguments to be made on both sides for that statement. But does it deserve zero-tolerance, expulsion, and a criminal charge of a 15-year-old as an adult? I can't imagine anyone would think so (though, apparently, some do...)
Was it really a felony? (Score:5, Informative)
No. Apparently they have charged rape suspects as Juveniles in that area, but a good student who hurt nobody will be tried as an adult??? It will never drop off her record. Freaking insane.
There is a petition to get the charges dropped and it has well over 10k signatures already:
http://www.change.org/petitions/the-bartow-police-and-bartow-high-school-drop-charges-against-kiera-wilmot?share_id=dFwlXuyxHk&utm_campaign=signature_receipt&utm_medium=email&utm_source=share_petition [change.org]
More likely "Zero Tolerance" gone insane, again. (Score:5, Interesting)
The "solution" then is to treat EVERYONE badly. I'm not that old, and my school had a policy of "both kids in a fight get punished." Didn't matter if you got jumped for being a geek with pacifist philosophy. OTOH, it was a learning experience about bureaucracy, government and pacifism. I dumped the pacifism, and the next kid that jumped me, I earned every ounce of my administrative punishment because I had no incentive NOT to do so. Zero tolerance and "everyone involved is equally guilty" is bunk, and a bad idea.
a chemical explosion in a school bathroom is ok? (Score:5, Interesting)
I clicked the link already angry at what I expected to find - a story about an ignorant, probably racist bureaucrat ruining a smart kid's life for no good reason.
But as someone who (as a kid) did more than my share of disruptive, loud, messy things, I can tell you that even before 9/11 and IEDs and "zero tolerance" doing this in a school bathroom would have resulted in punishment. This wasn't a classroom experiment - no teachers were aware of it - and, like it or not, Drano (or an equivalent toilet cleaner) is a pretty harsh chemical.
This won't be a popular post, but I don't think the story lives up to the headline.
Re:a chemical explosion in a school bathroom is ok (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:a chemical explosion in a school bathroom is ok (Score:4, Insightful)
I had dinner with a H.S. teacher recently and I was amazed at how things have changed. For example, it's now SOP for them to call the police when two kids get into a FIGHT. Even a basic fistfight with no weapons and no serious injuries. "Ridiculous" is right.
How does a kid being bullied not count as assault? Certainly when I was at school there was a lot of bullying going on and the school simply didn't care (even when people inevitably ended up injured). Whilst I'll agree that the first port of call should be for it to be handled internally in the school, if that doesn't work shouldn't the police be involved if only for the protection of the kids on the receiving end?
Re:a chemical explosion in a school bathroom is ok (Score:5, Insightful)
No one is saying it's OK. We're saying it's not a felony. Make the kid clean up the mess and suspend her for a week. Problem solved.
Excessive criminalization is a much bigger threat to us all than kids with drano bombs.
Re:a chemical explosion in a school bathroom is ok (Score:5, Informative)
Re:a chemical explosion in a school bathroom is ok (Score:5, Informative)
Re:a chemical explosion in a school bathroom is ok (Score:4, Informative)
It's sodium hydroxide which is basic, not acidic. Yes, it turns the fats in your body to soap, and is a very effective way to melt down a body, but the process is very slow.
As someone who has had an experiment of this very nature go haywire in my face I know from first hand experience that it's very unpleasant. But...please don't try to make out that the solution will melt someone's skin off in front of their eyes, the victim will have plenty and plenty of time to get water on the burn to dilute and remove the hydroxide. In the eyes won't be some easy, but I would be highly surprised if someone lost their vision provided they reacted in any kind of normal way: "holy shit, my eyes sting like living hell, I'd better wash them out with water *immediately*!!!"
Yes, an explosion in the face won't be good, but again, for a hydrogen explosion like this to do any real damage to life or property it has to be in a confined space and produce a lot of gas. In the open air you would have to make a monsterous amount of gas, and even then we'd be talking about a mild concussion and possibly ear-drum damage.
Anyway, the point of my response is to try and provide some rational perspective of the true *danger* and *risk* involved here.
Three Minutes on Youtube... (Score:5, Insightful)
When I first read this, I thought it was horrible. One of the articles linked in the story here called it a botched experiment. What kind of loony racist throws the book so hard at a kid who messed up a project? Then I went looking for the "experiment" and learned there was pretty much definitely nothing botched about this. Youtube is full of works bombs, which is apparently what these are called. A popular chemistry blog I stumbled into explains these are actually illegal to make. And I really don't see what else you could do with these components.
Now, this kid certainly doesn't deserve to be tried as an adult for multiple felonies just because they made a total dipshit choice that hurt nobody. But what's going on here is just usual-business prosecutorial excess, not racism. Ruining dumb high school kids' lives is practically what these fuckers live for lately, regardless of skin tone.
Re:Three Minutes on Youtube... (Score:5, Interesting)
...tells me that it is massively unlikely this was intellectual curiosity. Some kid thought it would be funny to make a huge bang at a place where huge bangs are known to cause massive administrative overreaction.
I don't understand, isn't that what intellectual curiosity is, at least if you're a teenager? This is how most scientists and engineers started out, by doing stupid experiments or building stupid things. That's how people learn.
Imagine where the economy would be today if every kid who tried to DDOS their school system had been tried for using a cyber weapon on school property.
what makes it fun (Score:5, Insightful)
Its exactly that kind of stuff that got me into chemistry in the first place
Re:what makes it fun (Score:4, Interesting)
This, completely. As I've remarked elsewhere, if this kind of logic had been applied when I was a kid I'd have been in prison. A LOT. I'd have also not got a master's degree in chemistry from a damn good Uni. One of my friends would have not ended up getting a PhD in the physical properties of high explosives and working someplace where he can't tell us a lot about what he does (it's either nukes or defeating armour, I just don't know which.)
AC - I don't want to end up on a no-fly list!
How can I contribute... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm glad I was a teen 20 years ago (Score:5, Interesting)
I was far from a bad teenager. I loved science though and if it went bang that was all the better. Draino and aluminium foil? Jesus. I made fertiliser bombs. I synthesised Nitrogen triiodide and all manner of other fun compounds.
One bonfire night I once had a visit from the police due to my homemade titanium salutes. They were amused and told me not to blow my hands off. These days I'd go to jail for a million years.
My son was expelled for... (Score:5, Insightful)
My now 17 year old Son was expelled from high school two years ago for... get this... popping a regular old helium balloon. He was charged with Disorderly Conduct (the catch-all "when we want to charge you with something" summary crime in Pennsylvania) but we managed to get that dismissed at the Magisterial District Court after about $15,000 in legal fees, most of which was spent trying to obtain school surveillance video showing that the balloon popped when he leaned up against a wall, pinching the balloon between his backpack and the wall, causing it to pop.
We've home-schooled him since then. It's truly amazing how absolutely brain-dead our government has become. It really does destroy everything it touches, including the education system.
As the saying goes, "zero tolerance = zero common sense"
She's a Model Student (Score:5, Interesting)
My immediate response to this item was to wonder whether the student in question was a constant annoyance to the teachers and administrators. The original article makes it clear that she is a model student: "Kiera Wilmot got good grades and had a perfect behavior record. She wasn't the kind of kid you'd expect to find hauled away in handcuffs and expelled from school, but that's exactly what happened after an attempt at a science project went horribly wrong."
That additional information (which really should have been in Slashdot's summary, as it was properly used in the reporter's lede) makes it clear that the student is being wronged. Whether she is being wronged as a result of racism or as a result of the inherent stupidity of zero-tolerance policies (policies from which exceptions are often made for the children of the wealthy and/or powerful) remains to be determined. Perhaps both are involved.
This is a teachable moment for the school. It is an opportunity for students and faculty together to examine the nature of fairness and the nature of bureaucracy. I hope there are some tenured faculty members at the school who are interested in making good use of the opportunity.
My own suspicion is that the administrators should be fired, but I think that way about a great many administrators.
Forget the Race Issue Here (Score:5, Insightful)
I do think the race issue is worth discussing. As well as the gender issue.
But there's something more fundamental and less likely to stoke passions at play here:
DOING SCIENCE IS ABOUT MAKING MISTAKES. Her "punishment" should be to write a paper on what she was trying to do and why the results were not what she expected. Simple, end of story.
There should be no real punishment of any kind, much less the over the top expulsion and arrest.
The simple fact is that she should be encouraged to make mistakes, not punished for them. And the most basic problem we are dealing with is that our school systems don't understand this fact.
Re:Florida (Score:4, Insightful)
Sorry, but schools are run by bed wetting morons all over the country.
But you keep going with that shit because I believe we should clearly know who all the stupid fucking morons are.
Re:Florida (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Florida (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, but the school is supposed to be the a source of wisdom and knowledge for developing adults. Instead of being the voice of reason that acknowledges and points out the heightened sensitivity to the child (and yes, a 16-year-old is still very much a child when it comes to making non-malicious mistakes like this), and teaches her to exercise better judgement, the school system is teaching her that if her curiosity leads her to accidentally crossing the line on what will freak out parents, the who system will come down on her and try to throw the book at her.
Although, after reading what I just wrote, that's probably a pretty accurate and depressing lesson of our current paranoid state. Still, I don't think kids should be subjected to such treatment.
It's an experiment now? (Score:5, Insightful)
I've seen this news elsewhere and Slashdot was the first place to call it a science experiment. I guess it could be, in the same sense as a Diet Coke & Mentos experiment or an "effects of flour on your best friend's head" experiment.
What's being done to her is completely ridiculous and she deserves nothing more than maybe a nasty look and a mild talking-to, but let's not stoop to yellow geek journalism
Re:It's an experiment now? (Score:5, Insightful)
You could say the same of popping a paper bag between your hands, where do you draw the line between "bomb" and "harmless fun thing that goes pop?"
Re:Florida (Score:5, Insightful)
However I can see the same thing happening in up where "All dose Yankees live" It is part of the dumbing down of our system of discipline.
Our system has been so intent of getting the bad guys that they are willing to let hundreds of innocent people go to jail vs letting one real criminal go free.
We spend more time trying to find ways to get kids kicked out of school and or locked up in prison. Then we do trying to keep kids in school and out of prison. We are all humans and we make mistakes. If we don't make mistakes, we don't learn from them. Does that mean that there are no consequences, no. They are consequences but they don't mean permanent marks on your life for getting caught for making a simple mistake.
For this teen, It probably should have lead to Detention, or perhaps up to a week suspension, because setting off unsupervised explosions (even small ones) is wrong. But being that didn't cause any damage, or was meant to the punishment should face that fact.
Her biggest mistake was that she wasn't a big football player, if that was the case she would have gone off with a kids will be kids and ignored.
Re:Florida (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Florida (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you may be missing the point of condemning racism if you find it acceptable to casually condemn an entire region as being of similar mind. That said, the south wouldn't have as much trouble with racism as it does, if it weren't for the pervasive denial of racist things as racist. So don't take my post as defending that.
Re:Florida (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly, and that goes on a lot, even among otherwise intelligent people. "That *large diverse group* is so bigoted!"
Not only are comments like that repulsive because of their innate stupidity, they're harmful because they are recasting the basic elements of racism and bigotry in a more socially tolerable guise, against a group that the poster feels it's OK to condemn based on stereotypes.
And I'm not from the south, so this isn't defensiveness. It's irritation. Just think about what you say.
Re:Florida (Score:5, Insightful)
This has nothing to do with religion. This is the fault of so-called "educators." They have become thoughtless, lazy, and self centered. Don't think so? They pass these so-called zero tolerance policies and blindly enforce them. It lets them discipline anyone for the slightest infraction so that they don't have to deal with the real issue of discipline within their own classrooms. It's far easier, from a teacher's perspective, to get a kid suspended or expelled rather than having to deal with discipline and the child's parents. In my school district, these zero tolerance policies are used in to go after the really bad kids instead of instead of going after them for the real issues. The attitude of most teachers and administrators is that so what if an innocent kid gets caught up in the rules, rules are rules. It's just easier to follow the rules than it is to enforce the spirit of them. It's amazing that educators just aren't thinking.
I think it's great that some teachers spoke up for this kid, but the union and the board should do this as well.
I also blame parents, but the parents of this kid are the problem. IT's the problem kids that have the loudest screaming parents only because if their kid gets suspended they have to take vacations days to watch them.
Honestly, I can't stand the way we treat kids today. We say they're important and then do everything we can to show them they aren't.
Re:Florida (Score:5, Insightful)
Your last line is spot on.
Zero tolerance policies are for zero brained educators.
Re:Florida (Score:5, Informative)
I agree completely.
Polk County School's justification for expullsion was (from TFA)
Anytime a student makes a bad choice it is disappointing to us. We urge our parents to join us in conveying the message that there are consequences to actions.
Yes, Polk County School, I think the 16-year-old understands what the general concept of punishment is and that actions have consequences. I don't see how they're going to be able to explain why a small explosion that produced as much force as any other gas reaction in a sealed bottle deserves expulsion, a felony charge, and being tried as an adult.
This one comment on TFA also seems appropriate:
User: [ideasrule]
Guys and girls, we should be engaging in activism instead of just posting comments! I've collected the sites and emails offered by other users into one place:
Change.org petition: http://www.change.org/petitions/the-bartow-police-and-bartow-high-school-drop-charges-against-kiera-wilmot [change.org]
Police department complaint form: http://www.cityofbartow.net/index.aspx?recordid=103&page=18 [cityofbartow.net]
School superintendent: john.stewart@polk-fl.net
School principal: Ronald.Pritchard@polk-fl.net
The other email someone offered, lbryan.pd@cityofbartow.net, is of "Crime Prevention Practioner" Lyn Bryan and it doesn't work (my email was blocked).
Remember that the school principal is a reasonable person who rightly thinks the girl didn't intend any harm, so we should be supportive of him.
Re:Florida (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't know if it will actually turn out that way, I had it drilled into me up through high school that marijuana was basically heroin, that condoms didn't work, that premarital sex would destroy my life, that God hates both of those things and that homosexuality is evil. Granted, I hate being high, was unsuccessful in most attempts to get laid, and am not gay, but none of that was due to what they told me in classes. Moreover I'm agnostic now. So hopefully zero tolerance will have an opposite effect and get kids to realize from an early age that they MUST fight for their rights. Still, I'd rather us not run that experiment. If when I'm an old man, I have to submit to a prostate check every time I get on a hoverbus because these youngsters were trained with zero tolerance not to question authority, I'm gonna be pissed.
Re:Florida (Score:5, Informative)
If you abhor racism, the very fact that it is stronger here than in many places is a reason to STAY - I can be an active voice against it.
Re: Florida (Score:5, Insightful)
assistant principal hears explosion, sees smoke, runs over and student claims "bomb" is science experiment. Seems reasonable, but teacher knows nothing about it. Of course expell student and possibly charge with crime, after all the things that have been going on recently at schools the school would be neglectful if they didn't expell student and call the police. Would a student be expelled and police notified for bringing a "harmless" BB gun to school or firecrackers? Of course, so should this student. But I'm a little perplexed why skin color was brought into this, or why a story of an accidental death has anything to do with this. People die all the time accidentally and it is not always a crime. Seems submitter is focused on racism rather than just looking at what happened and determining if punishment fit the crime.
Re: Florida (Score:5, Insightful)
The criminal charges are just stupid.
Re:Florida (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm calling *BULLSHIT* on you. I was born in South Carolina and maybe 90% of my family still lives there. For you to say you've *never* seen racism makes you a statistical anomaly far on the tail end of the curve (unless you just stepped off a bus from the North to blog). Even if you're White, you're going to hear comments from people in "safe" company. Racism just doesn't *exist* in the South, it's institutional. It's baked into the culture like apple pie and Memorial Day sales. Even the way people get hired and promoted in small towns like my home town has a racially-motivated undercurrent that favors some.
And, for you to go further to say the US doesn't have much of a problem with racism has to mean you're trying to make a point for an agenda. Just because you've never seen a banana thrown on a NBA court means nothing. Google for some articles about the crap Black pro athletes in the US hear on a regular basis during games. Just because their aren't collective chants doesn't mean there aren't just as many a-holes in the crowds. I've lived in Europe for 7 years. Their flavor of racism is different; it's almost nationalism-based but I agree that they have their problems as well.
I wonder what you mean by "brown skin." Are you Italian? Indian?
I do agree that this story is more about anti-terrorism and overreaction. That you *do* have right.
Re:Florida (Score:4, Funny)
Gallagher said in one of his specials:
"I like the shape of Florida. It looks like we're pissing on Cuba."
Perhaps it was the only time Gallagher has ever been funny.
Re:this is sad, just sad... (Score:4, Interesting)
I've had several cases where I needed to deal with public school administrators in a few places around the country. Usually it was computer security issues such as kids doing bad things from the school, or things like school machines infected and sending out spam. Similar kinds of things happen from businesses and universities a lot more because there are more of those around. But I can tell you that a much much higher percentage of the public school administrators are just plain totally incompetent, not just about computers and networks, but just about everything they do, including communicating in English. These people are so stupid in general (a few exceptions exist) I have to call them a totally separate breed. That's how bad it is. I would characterize half of them as wanna-be-politicians who just could not cut the rough and tumble world of dealing with adults who can fight back.
When I actually was in school, I noticed a few administrators were actually good people. Most went on to other jobs elsewhere (probably because they could not deal with the stupidity above them). One later got elected to Congress. The stupid ones stayed where they were.
The teachers, however, were almost all very good people. One friend I met in college who went through teach education graduating at the top of his class and earning other awards, ended up quitting from education after 5 years simply because he could not stand the bureaucratic BS from stupid people.
I thought people involved in educational process are better than this...
A few are. Gotta look hard to find them.
Re:Racist a little? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Not a science experiment (Score:5, Insightful)
No it wasn't, this experiment was done outside. The police report clearly states this if you had bothered to read. When I was a kid I did the same thing with dry ice and water as well as vinegar and baking soda. Water and baking powder were also interesting but pretty weak. Friends did all sorts of stuff with powdered iodine. All of us turned out just fine, we didn't have our lives ruined or curiosity killed. My teachers wouldn't have allowed me to do this but they might have demonstrated the reaction to our class as they did many other things. We're destroying our kids...