Florida Teen Expelled and Arrested For Science Experiment 1078
First time accepted submitter ruhri writes "A 16 year-old girl in Florida not only has been expelled from her high school but also is being charged as an adult with a felony after replicating the classic toilet-bowl cleaner and aluminum foil experiment. This has quite a number of scientists and science educators up in arms. The fact that she's African American and that the same assistant state attorney has decided not to charge a white teenager who accidentally killed his brother with a BB gun has some thinking whether this is a case of doing science while black."
Lets not (Score:5, Interesting)
Lets not attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.
And in this case, I hardly believe its about one being black,although it could play a part, it beingthe us,it seems more a thing about one being gun related and the other science related.
We all know what many americans hate most.
Every boy used to do this (Score:5, Interesting)
When I was in school, it was basically a full time job for many of us boys to figure out ways to make ever larger and more dramatic explosions happen. We used to fill trash bags full of methane from the lab, seal them with tape, then release them with a lit fuse and watch this huge fireball in the sky (I stopped before the principal took notice, so I didn't get caught:). I mean, kids just do stuff like that.
The difference today is the zero-tolerance rules in many public schools where even a little 6-year-old boy making a shape of a gun with his hand and going "bang!" at another kid is grounds for suspension.
As usual, bureaucracy gets it wrong. That girl should be reinstated and an apology should be issued, otherwise she'll be barred for life from many professions (albeit, as a minor theoretically her record is sealed, but in reality she's screwed).
And racism? That was just an extra little tidbit the OP added to spice things up. Ridiculous.
More likely "Zero Tolerance" gone insane, again. (Score:5, Interesting)
The "solution" then is to treat EVERYONE badly. I'm not that old, and my school had a policy of "both kids in a fight get punished." Didn't matter if you got jumped for being a geek with pacifist philosophy. OTOH, it was a learning experience about bureaucracy, government and pacifism. I dumped the pacifism, and the next kid that jumped me, I earned every ounce of my administrative punishment because I had no incentive NOT to do so. Zero tolerance and "everyone involved is equally guilty" is bunk, and a bad idea.
a chemical explosion in a school bathroom is ok? (Score:5, Interesting)
I clicked the link already angry at what I expected to find - a story about an ignorant, probably racist bureaucrat ruining a smart kid's life for no good reason.
But as someone who (as a kid) did more than my share of disruptive, loud, messy things, I can tell you that even before 9/11 and IEDs and "zero tolerance" doing this in a school bathroom would have resulted in punishment. This wasn't a classroom experiment - no teachers were aware of it - and, like it or not, Drano (or an equivalent toilet cleaner) is a pretty harsh chemical.
This won't be a popular post, but I don't think the story lives up to the headline.
Re:America has become pussy nation (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, I suspect if this had happened 20 to 30 years ago, there would not even have been a reprimand for performing the experiment, rather using said experiment (if it was considered a failure), as a learning experience to figure out where the student went wrong.
At most, I would have been yelled at for not using a fume closet...
Hell, I went to school in South Africa in the late 80's early 90's.... our science labs had green and black marks all over the ceiling from various "failed" but awesome experiments :)
How can I contribute... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm glad I was a teen 20 years ago (Score:5, Interesting)
I was far from a bad teenager. I loved science though and if it went bang that was all the better. Draino and aluminium foil? Jesus. I made fertiliser bombs. I synthesised Nitrogen triiodide and all manner of other fun compounds.
One bonfire night I once had a visit from the police due to my homemade titanium salutes. They were amused and told me not to blow my hands off. These days I'd go to jail for a million years.
Re:this is sad, just sad... (Score:4, Interesting)
I've had several cases where I needed to deal with public school administrators in a few places around the country. Usually it was computer security issues such as kids doing bad things from the school, or things like school machines infected and sending out spam. Similar kinds of things happen from businesses and universities a lot more because there are more of those around. But I can tell you that a much much higher percentage of the public school administrators are just plain totally incompetent, not just about computers and networks, but just about everything they do, including communicating in English. These people are so stupid in general (a few exceptions exist) I have to call them a totally separate breed. That's how bad it is. I would characterize half of them as wanna-be-politicians who just could not cut the rough and tumble world of dealing with adults who can fight back.
When I actually was in school, I noticed a few administrators were actually good people. Most went on to other jobs elsewhere (probably because they could not deal with the stupidity above them). One later got elected to Congress. The stupid ones stayed where they were.
The teachers, however, were almost all very good people. One friend I met in college who went through teach education graduating at the top of his class and earning other awards, ended up quitting from education after 5 years simply because he could not stand the bureaucratic BS from stupid people.
I thought people involved in educational process are better than this...
A few are. Gotta look hard to find them.
Re:America has become pussy nation (Score:4, Interesting)
By today's standards: what a waste of time and money. How is that going to help at standardized test time.
Really... just about every institution needs to be wiped and started again.
Re:what makes it fun (Score:4, Interesting)
This, completely. As I've remarked elsewhere, if this kind of logic had been applied when I was a kid I'd have been in prison. A LOT. I'd have also not got a master's degree in chemistry from a damn good Uni. One of my friends would have not ended up getting a PhD in the physical properties of high explosives and working someplace where he can't tell us a lot about what he does (it's either nukes or defeating armour, I just don't know which.)
AC - I don't want to end up on a no-fly list!
Re:Racist a little? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Interesting)
As much as I want the post to be funny, I'm slowly thinking it might be truth. You just need to look at the esteemed leaders of the House Committee on Science.
Re:Three Minutes on Youtube... (Score:5, Interesting)
...tells me that it is massively unlikely this was intellectual curiosity. Some kid thought it would be funny to make a huge bang at a place where huge bangs are known to cause massive administrative overreaction.
I don't understand, isn't that what intellectual curiosity is, at least if you're a teenager? This is how most scientists and engineers started out, by doing stupid experiments or building stupid things. That's how people learn.
Imagine where the economy would be today if every kid who tried to DDOS their school system had been tried for using a cyber weapon on school property.
Re:America has become pussy nation (Score:5, Interesting)
Shoot. When I was in high school (in the very early 1980s), we made nitroglycerin and nitrogen triiodide as part of chemistry class.
The instructions for making nitroglycerin were in the high school chemistry text book, and it even helpfully explained how to improve the rate of the reaction for faster production.
The guys making nitrogen triiodide were doing so in the enclosed vent chamber, and they sternly warned the instructor not to throw open the door. He failed to heed their warnings, and it exploded and burned off his hair and eyebrows. There were no lectures or discipline -- he acknowledged that they had carefully warned him not to be careless.
What they did with the liquid suspension was rather creative. :) It's basically inert while in suspension, but very unstable when dry. So they took eye droppers and wandered the halls of the school, randomly dropping drops of it on the floor. It dried in time for classes to swich. Lots of little firecracker bangs as people walked down the hallway and activated the dried samples on the floor. :)
As a junior high student (and high school student), I used to go around the school demonstrating potassium permanganate and glycerin for various classes. It was a great way to get young minds interested in the sciences and fascinated with chemistry.
Now, all 4 of my children have had high school chemistry (youngest is just now finishing it up). There is NO experimentation or lab work -- they are not allowed to touch any chemicals. The teacher is not even allowed to do the potassium permanganate experiment -- it is deemed too likely to cause students to become terrorists. I'm thoroughly disgusted by what has happened to the educational process in this country.
My oldest is graduating college in 2 days. Over the last 4 years, he has brought home horror stories about the rigid mindset that he has experienced in the classroom. Nearly all the college instructors (and this is at a large public university) absolutely insist that their perspective be parroted back -- there is zero tolerance for discussion and debate. People with differing beliefs and perceptions are publicly ridiculed and humiliated.
When I was in college at Texas A&M, my philosophy prof was the faculty advisor for the Gay and Lesbian student association. Despite the fact that he and I shared very few common positions on the topics discussed and written about in class, we got along well. He commended me at the end of the class, saying that I had presented my positions with clarity and precision, and I achieved a high A in his class. Apparently, that experience would be rare now.
Re:Lets not (Score:5, Interesting)
Speaking of double standards, I think it's rather unfair to jump to the conclusion that the DA charged her because she's black. You'd need to show a history of bias to make an insinuation like that less than libelous. The Huffington Post op-ed [huffingtonpost.com] makes loud protestations that it's not accusing anyone of anything, which might be enough to avert a libel charge. It does fall far short of decency, though. Mr. Lava makes no attempt to consider other possible differences between the cases of the white boy and the black girl, like the age difference between the kids or the fact that the BB gun accident happened at home and the chemistry accident happened at school.
Actually, I think you are wrong.
The girl who killed her brother was 13 and she held a gun 6 inches from her brothers head and fire it. Even if it was just an accident, she purposely put a gun (bb gun, but still a gun) to the head of her brother and pulled the trigger. She knew it was a bb gun, she knew it shot bb's. And yet, she still put it to the head of her brother and pulled the trigger.
You grasp that yet? That girl is not being charged. At 13, she is more then old enough to know better then to put a gun to anyone's head and pull the trigger. I knew better then that when i was 13, shit, I knew better then that when I was 7 (first time i got to play with a bb gun).
So, we have a case, where a girl purposely put a gun to someones head and killed them, and is not being charged. Then we have this case where a girl does an science experiment on school grounds, made a very small explosion, and she is getting charged as an adult. No one was hurt. She wasn't trying to hurt anyone, she was just repeating a science experiment. Did she do wrong? yes, she should of been supervised, or at least, not on school grounds when she did that.
So, what is the difference between these 2 stories? 2 young girls, one is 13, and the other is 16. While there is a difference in age, it's not really that much. And it doesn't matter, as both should of known better then to do what they did. So what is the difference? One girl is white and the other is black. And the white girl did a far worse thing, far worse. Even thinking the bb gun was unloaded is no excuse for pointing it at the head of someone, at close range and pulling the trigger.
So you keep saying there isn't any proof that the charges are racial motivated and those of us who can grasp the obvious will keep discussing them.
For the record, I am white, and if I was the DA, that white girl would of faced charges (as a kid, not as an adult) and the black girl wouldn't of.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Interesting)
The democrats are a center right party, we have no left party.
Depends on your ideological POV, doesn't it? Consider...
* From the Limbaugh standpoint, the DNC is a frothing group of neo-marxists out to take down the USA by any means possible.
* From the MSNBC fan's standpoint, the DNC is a fair-minded champion of tolerance and diversity whose policy set sits far to the right of that found in the EU.
* From my standpoint, both the DNC and the RNC are a bunch of posturing hypocritical leeches on society who don't give a shit about anything but gaining power, money and control. Their only real difference is in how they each want these things exerted, and on whom, but their goals are the same so long as they are the ones in charge when the dust settles.
Ideology? Pfft! That's simply the truncheon they use to keep their respective troops in line.
A pox on both your frickin' houses.
Re:Florida (Score:1, Interesting)
You're an idiot.
Spoken, no doubt, by an anonymous coward from Dixie who just can't come to grips with the extent that racism still pervades The South. No, the idiots are the officials who are making this chickenshit case and ruining a young woman's life.
Oh, please. I have brown skin living in South Carolina, and have never encountered any racism. I had to take a trip to New Jersey to have that experience for the first time (although I will say even in New Jersey it's atypical, I go there often and never have any problems). The United States really doesn't have much a problem with racism when you compare it to someplace like Europe, where you can attend a soccer game and start hearing racist chants against non-white players from the crowd. Have you ever been to a sports game and seen this happen in the US?
This is more a case of the stupidity that takes over a population every time we see a terrorist attack. When 9/11 happened, airport security started freaking out over engineering students carrying circuit boards (because exposed wires must mean it's a bomb or something). Now we had the Boston bombing and a minor explosion as a result of an accident of curiosity which doesn't actually hurt anyone is going to cause an overreaction. Right now, in so short a time after Boston, a white student would have gotten the same treatment.
Re:Florida (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't know if it will actually turn out that way, I had it drilled into me up through high school that marijuana was basically heroin, that condoms didn't work, that premarital sex would destroy my life, that God hates both of those things and that homosexuality is evil. Granted, I hate being high, was unsuccessful in most attempts to get laid, and am not gay, but none of that was due to what they told me in classes. Moreover I'm agnostic now. So hopefully zero tolerance will have an opposite effect and get kids to realize from an early age that they MUST fight for their rights. Still, I'd rather us not run that experiment. If when I'm an old man, I have to submit to a prostate check every time I get on a hoverbus because these youngsters were trained with zero tolerance not to question authority, I'm gonna be pissed.
She's a Model Student (Score:5, Interesting)
My immediate response to this item was to wonder whether the student in question was a constant annoyance to the teachers and administrators. The original article makes it clear that she is a model student: "Kiera Wilmot got good grades and had a perfect behavior record. She wasn't the kind of kid you'd expect to find hauled away in handcuffs and expelled from school, but that's exactly what happened after an attempt at a science project went horribly wrong."
That additional information (which really should have been in Slashdot's summary, as it was properly used in the reporter's lede) makes it clear that the student is being wronged. Whether she is being wronged as a result of racism or as a result of the inherent stupidity of zero-tolerance policies (policies from which exceptions are often made for the children of the wealthy and/or powerful) remains to be determined. Perhaps both are involved.
This is a teachable moment for the school. It is an opportunity for students and faculty together to examine the nature of fairness and the nature of bureaucracy. I hope there are some tenured faculty members at the school who are interested in making good use of the opportunity.
My own suspicion is that the administrators should be fired, but I think that way about a great many administrators.
Re:Playing the race card again (Score:5, Interesting)
Embezzling their oil wealth? By taking multinationals mostly out of the trough and using what would have been corporate profit on social programs? I think that you are confusing embezzling the native population with removing predatory companies from taking their customary lion's share of the national wealth. The people elected him and loved him dearly right to the very end. For the most part those who disliked Chavez wanted to go back to the status quo of the rich always getting richer at the expense of both the environment and the poor.
There are systems that can work well which are not heavily capitalistic. I'm not a huge fan of Castro but, read about their vermicomposting program. I am jealous of them because it sounds like they are building a quite sustainable economy on their island, and probably eat better than the average USA consumer (that is what we are called now, right?). One of the main reasons they are able (forced) to do this is that they aren't "helped" by the agrichemicals that US corporations would love to be able provide them with.
So would it be all right if... (Score:5, Interesting)
Suppose that she had been a he, had been white, had been the star quarterback and was expelled and charged as an adult for exactly the same act.
No one would say it was about race or anything else of that sort. Would that make it any less outrageous?
Re:Florida (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm from rural Georgia and during a trip to Birmingham, Alabama I felt like I had traveled back in time over 30 years. It reminded me a lot of the attitudes I saw in my youth. There are still a lot of people who were raised in a prejudiced environment but things have improved much. I was recently talking with a very country friend of mine who said something that would be labeled racist by most here although he probably didn't intend it as such, he called a guy a "black asshole." He stopped and kind of looked down for a second and said "I really shouldn't say it was because he was black, it ain't got nothing to do with that, he's just an asshole." I was kind of surprised that he made the distinction because for him identifying people by color is just natural.
Re:Florida (Score:2, Interesting)
Having travelled all over the US (and living outside of it), I can say with some certainty that the racial *undertones* of the southern culture are extaordinarily stronger than they are anywhere else I've been in the English speaking world.
While racism is always somewhat present, even in a place like Ontario, Canada, where natives are still often treated with scorn, even if it's not endorsed publicly, it happens on the street constantly.
I'd never heard the word "nigger" used in a derogatory sense in my life (outside of television and movies) until I was in a small town in Virginia about 10 years ago, and I overheard it during a conversation in a gas station parking lot.
I've since heard it a dozen times or so, always in Albama, Georgia, South Carolina, Louisiana, Texas.... Never heard it, except in a joking context in Canada or Oregon or Massachusetts or Minnesota.
Bear in mind I was usually in small towns and I'm a big bald white guy who was driving a (rented) pickup truck. I'm fairly certain that those guys wouldn't have talked so freely if they didn't think I was "one of them".