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The Almighty Buck Technology

Tale of Two Tech Hubs: Silicon Glen & Chandiga 263

Posted by michael from the it-was-the-best-of-times-it-was-the-worst-of-times dept.
securitas writes "A pair of stories about two technology hubs in different parts of the world contrast and document their efforts to flourish as regional technological centers: Scotland's Silicon Glen and India's Chandigarh. The BBC explains that Silicon Glen is still struggling to recover from the technology bust with 15,000 jobs lost in the last year alone. 'Scotland's electronics sector contributes one-seventh of its gross domestic product, directly employs 45,000 workers, and accounts for more than half the country's exports,' which are down 50%. Meanwhile, the New York Times reports on northern India and the birth of a technology boom, as a group of government officials, consultants and high technology entrepreneurs is trying to transform the city of Chandigarh from a 'sleepy farm state capital into the "technology hub of northern India."' The city is competing with other Indian cities by offering 'lower labor costs than India's "first tier" technology hubs, places like Bangalore, Hyderabad, Bombay and Gurgaon, outside New Delhi.' As Chandigarh competes with its rivals for call centers and software development parks, some of those cities are experiencing a labor shortage of skilled workers. These aren't the only two places with such reversals of fortune - how does your region fare?"
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Tale of Two Tech Hubs: Silicon Glen & Chandiga More

Tale of Two Tech Hubs: Silicon Glen & Chandiga

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  • I find it amazing (Score:5, Interesting)

    by musingmelpomene ( 703985 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @02:40PM (#7543176) Homepage
    That with all the complaints people make about young people working in the garment industry for low to poverty-level wages in third-world nations, no one has yet figured out that basically, by letting technology companies take jobs overseas, we're encouraging the same thing on a different level. Just because it's more white-collar doesn't make it less of a sweatshop.

    • Re:I find it amazing (Score:5, Insightful)

      by gid13 ( 620803 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @02:54PM (#7543253)
      I don't know for sure, but my guess is that the tech industry jobs in India pay more than sweatshop jobs.

      In any case, it seems to me that an interesting solution would be for "wealthy" countries to impose minimum wages on companies that do business in their country but employ people in other countries. E.g., if Nike had to pay its African workers, say, half of the U.S. minimum wage, or else be forbidden from doing any business at all in the States.

      That way, Americans would be less freaked out about losing their jobs to foreigners because it wouldn't happen so much, and the sweatshop employees that remained would actually be getting a significant level of monetary help.

      Of course, I have a suspicion that Indian tech workers make more than U.S. minimum wage, and as far as I can see, there isn't too much that can be done about that given American ideals. In particular, capitalism is supposed to promote efficiency by rewarding people who do things cheaper. And if Indians provide better tech value, it seems to me that it's the American way to farm out those jobs.

      • Re:I find it amazing (Score:2, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Just to give you a reference point - I make about $3 an hour (about $2.50 after taxes). I think I'm among the higher paid employees and this is in Bombay, where the cost of living is significantly higher than Bangalore - I suspect programmers get paid less there.

      • There was a recent article from CNN.COM about india outsourcing and the number I recall was 4.5$ per hour. I do not know what the US minimum wage is.

      • Lets be real here (Score:4, Insightful)

        by C10H14N2 ( 640033 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @04:22PM (#7543626)
        There are scarcely 550,000 people in the US whose incomes exceed $500k. That's equivalent to half the population of Rhode Island and would yield 50k people in California--a state home to 27 million. These are the people who are making judgements about offshore outsourcing. I hardly think the opinions of 0.44% of the population represents 'the American Way.' Does it wholly escape people how close, yet how few, 'the superrich' are? Their lives and their interests are by definition NOT 'the American Way' any more than any other group of 0.44% can catagorically represent an entire population unless 'the American Way' is some begging Dickensian euphemism for willingly being walked on and thrown out with the trash.
        • The US is a nation of over 280 million individuals. 5 million of those individuals make more than $1 million a year. And thats just the $1 million cut off point. If lowered to $500,000 a year there's way more than 5 million.
      • Forcing US companies to play by US rules won't help. They'll simply contract everything out to less accountable companies and claim "positive deniability". Much like Walmart did here in the United States... "Yes, we were paying the contracting firm much less than we would have had to spend to hire our own janitorial staff, but we had NO reason to suspect they were using illegal immigrant labor!"

      • Re:I find it amazing (Score:5, Insightful)

        by fbg111 ( 529550 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @06:33PM (#7544224)
        That way, Americans would be less freaked out about losing their jobs to foreigners because it wouldn't happen so much, and the sweatshop employees that remained would actually be getting a significant level of monetary help.

        You're assuming that Indian IT workers aren't already getting a significant level of monetary help. There's an article about this very phenomena in the latest issue of Fortune magazine, and one point it makes is that $2000/month salary for Indian call-center workers is princely. A 23-yr old Indian male was interviewed and said his goal is to own a house and a car by the time he's 28. He already has the car (and motorcycle).

        The problem is, Americans see our $60,000/year jobs going over to India and morphing into $24,000/year jobs, and we automatically think "sweatshop!" "exploitation!". But that knee-jerk reaction doesn't take into account that India is a developing nation, the cost of living there is significantly less, and the (1 dollar : 46 rupee) exchange rate further magnifies the wage disparity in our eyes.

        In any case, it seems to me that an interesting solution would be for "wealthy" countries to impose minimum wages on companies that do business in their country but employ people in other countries. E.g., if Nike had to pay its African workers, say, half of the U.S. minimum wage, or else be forbidden from doing any business at all in the States.

        A better solution would be for America to adapt to globalization. That's not impossible, as so many seem to believe/fear. In fact, self-organizing adaptation is one of main strengths of capitalism. We did it when the Japanese took over the auto industry, and have been doing it with the steel industry, for two examples. We're the most creative nation in the world, and just as importantly, we have the economic, legal, and social structures to allow us put that creativity into practice. There's no reason we can't apply those advantages to the problems that globalization brings. Turn lemons into lemonade, so to speak.

        And we can start with our dismal educational system. As one Indian business leader stated in that Fortune article, we need to retool our educational system so that it gives people the knowledge, skills, and work ethic needed to both create and take advantage of new economic opportunities that will inevitably arise with globalization.

        Regardless, globalization may be painful for some, but if it helps bring the rest of the world out of the dark ages, then consider it a long-term investment that will eventually pay itself off ten-fold. Who knows, maybe one day, democratic, affluent India and (dare I say it) China will be exporting their call-center and IT jobs back to the US.

        • Re:I find it amazing (Score:3, Insightful)

          by enjo13 ( 444114 )

          Who knows, maybe one day, democratic, affluent India and (dare I say it) China will be exporting their call-center and IT jobs back to the US.

          Which would mirror what's happened in the car industry. It's been very interesting, but over the last few years so many of those auto jobs that where 'lost' to Japan and Korea have now returned.. this time it's those same Japanese and Korean auto makers actually building cars in the states. Turns out that it's cheaper and more efficient (the hallmarks of those co

      • In any case, it seems to me that an interesting solution would be for "wealthy" countries to impose minimum wages on companies that do business in their country but employ people in other countries. E.g., if Nike had to pay its African workers, say, half of the U.S. minimum wage, or else be forbidden from doing any business at all in the States.

        Fair enough if you scale the wage by purchasing power. It makes no sense to compare American minimum wage to an Indian salary when you can buy milk for around 30 c

    • What I find amazing that it's the same people who think nothing of paying $20 dollars for a t-shirt or $150 dollars for pair of sports shoes that they know are made by workers earning next to nothing in sweatshops in South East Asia that are the first to complain when jobs in their own industries start being lost to overseas firms.

      If you're happy to reap the benefits of a global economy when you go to Gap or Footlocker then you should be ready to accept the consequences when the same global economy dictate

    • Re:I find it amazing (Score:2, Insightful)

      by anirban ( 677237 )
      Yeah you are right pal. For example I work for a US based company (Cognizant Technology Solutions) & I am an Indian , a fresher , finished my B.tech & get Rs 15000 which a lot for a fresher but it is nothing in US only near about $300 ($1 = Rs50 ) where as as much as I know a B.tech frsher in US will get atleast $ 5000 , more than 10 times. Now to cut cost companies follows the Off shore On site model for this some people like me get some money but that does no good to my country coz the industri
      • Thanks for the "On Site" insight. Something I'm curious about: What sort of standard of living do you achieve with Rs 15000 where you live? Do you live in a house or an apartment? Is the place nice? Do you own a car? What kind? Are cars commonly owned there, or do people use public transportation? Are you married? Kids? Who does your housework? What kind of computer do you have? Do you have much "disposable income" to spend on partying or whatever you might choose to do with it, or do you barely

        • Re:I find it amazing (Score:3, Informative)

          by bharath ( 140269 )
          Here are some general numbers that 15K Rs. a month buys you,

          Conversion is almost 45 Rupees to a Dollar.

          Usually a shared rented apt., anywhere between 1500 to 5000 Rs.

          No cars, maybe a motorbike.

          Cheapest computer would cost you around 30K Rs.

          If you live out of your parent's home as many do, most of what you earn is disposable income.

          Cell phone service in Indian cities are probably much better/cheaper than the US

          Bread: 15 Rs.
          Milk : 15 Rs. / Litre (around a dollar for a gallon)?

          Restaurants: Something co
        • 15K p.m. for a 21 yr old is pretty good. A new bike costs 30K-50K. So he can purchase one in a year. Even a car ( possibly 2nd hand ) is feasible if she decides to take on a loan.

          Most people live in apartments, houses are few and far between, and very very expensive. Before the tech boom, it was very difficult for 'bachelors' to get apartments, as they were assumed to be 'not well behaved', and dangerous to the girls in the neighbourhood (I kid you not!!). After the tech boom, suddenly, having a sw enginee

    • Re:I find it amazing (Score:5, Insightful)

      by jgalun ( 8930 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @03:04PM (#7543290) Homepage
      I find it amazing that despite 50 years of successful globalization, we still hear these moronic arguments against jobs moving overseas. After WWII, the US accounted for 50% of world GDP. Europe, Russia, and Japan were destroyed. South Korea, China, and Taiwan were agrarian. etc.

      Since then, Europe and Japan have been rebuilt, and East Asia and India have greatly advanced technologically. America only accounts for 25% of world GDP today - but our standard of living is much higher.

      This is not a zero-sum game, people. Yet every decade, we hear the same moronic complaints. People were worried about Japanese electronic goods. Then they were worried about Japanese cars. Then they were worried about cheap textiles from overseas. Then factories in Mexico. Steel dumping. etc. etc.

      If these predictions had been correct, the United States would have a lower standard of living today than it did in 1945, and a higher unemployment. But the reverse is true - we have very low unemployment today, and a higher standard of living than ever before.

      So suck it.

      As for these jobs being "sweatshops" - please. The fact is that these countries have much worse capital infrastructures, so they need to work their labor much harder to make investment attractive. But it's not like it stays that way forever. Believe me, Taiwan and South Korea and China and India are far better off today after their sweatshop phases than they were before. Or, don't believe me, but believe the people of those countries - do you see the Chinese up in arms because their standard of living has doubled in the past 20 years? Why is it that the democratically elected government of India is moving away from socialism and trying to attract those "sweatshop" jobs? Why does South Korea have such a high standard of living today, if these are simply sweatshop jobs?

      Gimme a break.

      • Wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG. (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward

        If these predictions had been correct, the United States would have a lower standard of living today than it did in 1945, and a higher unemployment.

        In the late '40s, a single blue-collar job could support a whole family.

        But the reverse is true - we have very low unemployment today, ...

        Firstly, the unemployment figures have been cooked to exclude everybody who was so screwed that they gave up and dropped out of civil society. Secondly, low unemployment is driven by a shortage of income. The wealthi

      • Re:I find it amazing (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        I would like to invite you to my state. The state of North Carolina (which is a tad better off than some of its neighbors). There are thousands upon thousands of people here that can NOT get a job. They WAIT in line to get the only job opening at the local mcdonalds. Yes its THAT bad.

        'Well move somewhere else' They CANT afford to. They sold the car last year to eat/pay rent. They live off the goverment because that is the only one that will feed them. They can not sell the house because no one woul

    • Re:I find it amazing (Score:5, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 23, 2003 @03:17PM (#7543339)
      That with all the complaints people make about young people working in the garment industry for low to poverty-level wages in third-world nations, no one has yet figured out that basically, by letting technology companies take jobs overseas, we're encouraging the same thing on a different level. Just because it's more white-collar doesn't make it less of a sweatshop.

      I think you are a fool.
      I worked in Bombay for 7 years (4 in Software &
      3 in other industries), also in Bangalore for 1
      year. Nowhere was it a sweatshop.

      My cubicle in Bombay was actually bigger & more comfortable than my first office in the Silicon
      Valley - I was a permanent employee at both
      places.

      The sweatshop like conditions exist only in
      unskilled labour jobs - not for engineering ,marketing jobs or any white collar jobs in
      Bombay.

      I will be going back to Bombay to work next year.

      Dollar to rupee conversions are meaningless when
      you compare wages.

      In Bombay, I can go to a very good restaurant (a
      fine dining place, not the equivalent of Denny's)
      & have dinner with wine & appetizers & dessert for
      around 10$. If I go to a Denny's like place, you
      can have a decent meal for 2$.

      I can take a taxi-cab for 15 miles for 5$ or so.
      I can pay a maid to come in everyday for 20$ a
      month. I can get an oilchange for my motorbike
      for 1-2$ all included.

      You can rent an apartment in the suburbs for
      about 200$.

      After coming to the US, my lifestyle has improved
      in someways, but has gone bad in other ways -
      which is why I am going back next year.

    • Just because it's more white-collar doesn't make it less of a sweatshop.

      And just because you say so it doesn't make it a sweatshop either! There is enough demand for tech workers in India still that no employer could take such advantage, its still a free country.

      Get practical, most companies which will try to keep the tech jobs here and pay high end salaries will perish because people will not care as long as a competitor offers the same service for less. Trying to give the issue a humanitarian angle will

  • ...how does your region fare?

    Luckily we have so many unemployed computer geeks here in the U.S. we should see lots of replies. Oh did I mention that things are really awful here job-wise?

    • I've been thinking of moving, the problem is, what language do I study? There don't seem to be many jobs anywhere in the English-speaking world for IT professional-types. What language should I be picking up if I want to get a Unix sysadmin job where I sit in a back room writing scripts and fucking with archaic computers all the time?
      • What language should I be picking up if I want to get a Unix sysadmin job where I sit in a back room writing scripts and fucking with archaic computers all the time?

        English? I'd have thought there are lots of such Unix-sysadmin jobs in US universities, perhaps not great-paying but enough to get by on (we recently lost ours, who got a better offer elsewhere).

    • Well Scotland is a low-cost location by the standards of the USA. That's why American industries moved there in the first place (that, and "development grants").

      But it's still high-cost compared to other "developing" parts of the world.

      If the employment situation is getting worse in a place like Scotland, then it's not going to improve much in the USA any time soon. Not for nuts-and-bolts work.

      Educate and train your populace, and give creative people the opportunity to do their thing. It's the only way t

  • Screwdrivers (Score:2, Informative)

    by RabidStoat ( 689404 )
    I always thought a fair bit of the high tech investment in Scotland was more as a result of aggressive Government back inducements to companies to set up in Scotland. I seem to remember at one point a lot of the "high tech" jobs were in fact just in final assembly - bolting the real guts of the equipment together after the hard stuff was done in the far east. A policy like that is always vulnerable to some other government making more attractive offers to companies.

    • Re:Screwdrivers (Score:3, Insightful)

      by jonbryce ( 703250 )
      The main advantage of having a screwdriver plant in Scotland is that you can put "Made in Great Britain", or "Made in Scotland" on your products, even if most of the work was done elsewhere. It can also help get round qutoas and import duties.

      The thing is that nobody really cares about where it is made as long as it works, the WTO has reduced most import duties, and the cost savings from having the screwdriver work done elsewhere more than offset it anyway.

    • Re:Screwdrivers (Score:4, Informative)

      by SmackCrackandPot ( 641205 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @05:21PM (#7543880)
      I seem to remember at one point a lot of the "high tech" jobs were in fact just in final assembly.

      That was true. Many of the semi-conductor companies moved their manufacturing plants abroad due to the bad reputation that the chip fabrication plants had gained. This also matched the goal of bringing employment to the unemployed manufacturing workers in the area. But with the competition from India for these jobs, the planners are being forced to look higher in the food chain, the R&D positions.

      Scotland also does have a software engineering industry (oil industry in Aberdeen, financial in Edinburgh, some Arts in Glasgow and Dundee). Edinburgh has a small non-financial software industry. But the problem (with Edinburgh at least) is that companies can't match US salaries even though house prices in areas with good schools match Bay Area prices. I used to work for a network software company in Edinburgh. There was a constant churn of senior engineers who kept leaving for the US. The management in this company got so fed up, that in the end they decided to only recruit senior staff from outside the company. Eventually the company was bought out by the Shiva Corporation, which in turn was bought out by Intel.

      Even now, the top salaries for a senior software engineer in Scotland is around 30K pounds (45K US dollars), while an entry-level graduate salary is 20K (35K US dollars). A house in Edinburgh is around 250K pounds (350K dollars). Even an one bedroom modern apartment costs around 120K pounds (180K dollars). Old fashioned victorian apartments with large bedrooms are even more desirable (250K pounds), especially by the buy-to-rent-out-to-student market). Housing is cheaper in the space between Edinburgh and Glasgow, but employees need a car to get around. This is a major disadvantage for graduates who prefer to live in urban areas where public transport is available. So a company could either be located in Silicon Glen, and find it difficult to recruit graduates, or be located in Edinburgh and find it difficult to keep senior staff.

      Other problems are that many British companies don't offer their employees the choice of a technical career path, pension schemes are owned by the companies (there's no real 401K plan in the UK), and that many graduates are only attracted to study for a Computer Science degree in order to work in London's financial industry.

  • In My Region... (Score:3, Funny)

    by John Hasler ( 414242 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @02:45PM (#7543212) Homepage
    > These aren't the only two places with such
    > reversals of fortune - how does your region fare?

    Not well. Milk prices remain low.

  • Crying a river.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by dameron ( 307970 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @02:46PM (#7543214)
    I know it's not technically ironic, but man, wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall, or see the look on a lead programmer's face in Banglore when he's told his job is being "outsourced?"

    Seems they've found someone who will do the job for even less scratch. I suddenly find my sympathy gauge tapped out...

    -dameron
    • Before people start chiming in with what would be ironic, let me just make my contribution; If you moved from the silicon valley to bangalore (to use your example) because your job was lost due to outsourcing, and have your job outsourced... back to the US. Just watch, it's going to happen eventually :)
    • I know it's not technically ironic, but man, wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall, or see the look on a lead programmer's face in Banglore when he's told his job is being "outsourced?"

      I'm a programmer in Bangalore, and let me tell you, if my job does get "outsourced" to Chandigarh, I'll simply pack my bags and head off Chandigarh! No big deal, eh? ;-)

      • I'm a programmer in Bangalore, and let me tell you, if my job does get "outsourced" to Chandigarh, I'll simply pack my bags and head off Chandigarh! No big deal, eh? ;-)

        That's not really outsourcing, now is it? In the US, we call it relocation, because you can follow the job. The vast majority of Americans whose jobs have run off to India and China couldn't follow their jobs if they wanted to. Other contries are funny about immigration, see?

        • The vast majority of Americans whose jobs have run off to India and China couldn't follow their jobs if they wanted to. Other contries are funny about immigration, see?

          That's one of the funnyiest things I've heard in a while. Is that what most Americans believe? No wonder less than 1 in 10 have a passport!!

          Listen, getting a work visa to just about any country in the word is childs play, provided you can do something useful. If it's IT you are good at, the world is your oyster.

          • That's one of the funnyiest things I've heard in a while. Is that what most Americans believe? No wonder less than 1 in 10 have a passport!!

            Many Americans do beleve that, but the passport issue is a seperate one. You see, very few of us need a passport to go on a 2-hour car trip. We have a little bit more land mass (than you most likely do, as I'm assuming you live in Europe). Besides, most Americans don't particularly want to stoop to lowering their standard of living by going somewhere else.

            Be an
            • What gives you the idea that Spanish is a gutter language? Spain is a country as dignified and noble as France or England with a similarly interesting history as the other two countries.
              • What gives you the idea that Spanish is a gutter language? Spain is a country as dignified and noble as France or England with a similarly interesting history as the other two countries.

                If not even more so, in my opinion. I'm certianl not talking about Spain and proper Spanish. I'm talking about the Mexican/American mangling (Spenglish) that is spoken by most illegal immigrants from south of our borders in the US.
        • The US is as funny as any. I married an American in 1997 after having cohabited for four years. At the time, we lived in The Netherlands, and I am an Irish national. It took over a year for me to get a visa to work in the US, a very gruelling year of interviews, forms, fees, AIDS tests, etc. My wife obtained a visa to work in Ireland in three weeks flat. Inform yourself before you make silly statements.
    • Actually, there is a growing problem (for India) of tech jobs moving to former Soviet states. Coders there will work for a DOLLAR an hour!

      I'm to lazy to Google it, but I do recall a IT manager in Bombay saying in amusement, "When will it end? When they find someone who works for free?"

      I thought it funny until I thought of Chinese prison labor. I wonder if they'll start Comp Sci 101 classes in a gulag there soon.

      You *can* get coding for free. Where is the Invisible Hand then?

  • bah (Score:2, Interesting)

    by nomadic ( 141991 )
    Every country, state, municipality, town, city, and village wants to create some sort of high-tech industry. They can't do it, and the optimism some of these people would be funny if it wasn't so depressing. It's the same thing that happened with the dot com crash--people couldn't get it through their thick heads that there were way too many sellers and not nearly enough buyers.

  • Explain this to me. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by s20451 ( 410424 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @03:00PM (#7543273) Journal
    I've noticed that in every article having to do with outsourcing, there are more than a few posts calling for the government to do something about it (i.e., instigate tarrifs). Yet in every article having to do with file sharing, the overwhelming sentiment is: their business model is obsolete, we don't owe them a living, deal with it. Well guess what -- this is the world you've created! The high-paid tech worker business model is becoming obsolete. It's hypocricy that obsolescence should apply to everyone except yourself.

    I grant you that not everyone who wants tarriffs also wants the RIAA to FOAD. However, I have yet to hear a single techie say, "Well, I guess I'm obsolete -- better go find a new, profitable skill set." It's all fun and games when the victims are anonymous, isn't it?
    • It's not that they're obsolete, it's that there's a zillion of them. I've been putzing around the community college trying to find something I want to do, so far I've been studying machining (I wish I had a lot more time to spend on it) and auto body and some other shit, any of that could let me make a decent living I guess, but I haven't happened on something new I want to do. Anyway people are just going to have to get used to making less money, I certainly have. :)

    • Skill set locality (Score:3, Insightful)

      by hedley ( 8715 )
      This is a problem for our chosen skill set. A Dr or lawyer practises close to home and can command a decent wage that cannot be reasonably outsourced. I mention these professions because of the length of training is close to a computer professional. There is one area of our profession of course that cannot reasonably be outsourced and that is defense. Beyond that, most other work in our field can and is being done overseas. This trend is going to continue. I do see long term problems with science education
      • I'm reminded of a quip from a couple years ago, along the lines of: analysts will suddenly stop recommending all jobs be outsourced overseas when market analysis starts being outsourced.

        Having said that, though, I don't think profitable computer careers here are a thing of the past--I just think that the kind of careers, and the kind of salary levels, that we saw in 1998-2000 are a thing of the past. I'm not being entirely facetious when I say I regret not having moved to Silicon Valley in 1997, when emplo
      • "There is one area of our profession of course that cannot reasonably be outsourced and that is defense. "

        Oh, not, not, not, NOT true.

        Investigate how many components used in our national defense structure are made in China, South Korea, Japan, on and on. There is an immense problem in that, in order to save money and because we have LOST key domestic manufacturing capabilities, we are dependent on foreign good will to purchase parts to keep our defense going. And I'm sure most of the coding for industrial
    • It's hypocricy that obsolescence should apply to everyone except yourself.

      Well, the government has jumped in to help save the content industry's business model. They've just mandated copy controls on digital TV, they've made cracking copy protections into a felony with draconian punishments, and they're likely to require DRM on all computing equipment before long.

      I say what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Bring on the software tariffs.

    • However, I have yet to hear a single techie say, "Well, I guess I'm obsolete -- better go find a new, profitable skill set."

      Interesting, yes. But you must not be talking to a lot of "techies." Yes, a lot of us have considered cross-training to another occupation, but consider this: Here's me, with a wife, a house and mortage, two cats, a reasonable amount of debt, and hopes for a kid to come along soon. Let's say I'm considering getting out of the dreary world of IT and into something else I'm intere

  • Resources (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BWJones ( 18351 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @03:01PM (#7543277) Homepage Journal
    This should exemplify that IT resources and programmers are finite. Jobs dry up in one area only to resurface where costs are lower.

    Any industry that becomes a commodity will undergo a similar transformation. This is exactly what made the whole silicon valley experiment so wildly successful in that an entirely new paradigm was created that existed in few other places. When the "resource" became common and the concepts became commodities that could be moved around, traded and bargained for, the result was job movement to where those who had the skills would work for less. So, the trick is to innovate and again create for the world markets and ourselves skill-sets that are unique and in demand for the products or services they provide.

    • an entirely new paradigm

      Yay! Bingo! I got buzzword bingo and I'm only 1/3 of the way throught the comments!
    • when i think about how unsuccessful we've been at coping with software development in the internet age i wonder if the skills are truly commodiities. i think the current market conditions treat them as if they were, but markets change. for example, most people have the perception that sofware is generally very low quality, but in the past this low quality has not had the expensive consequences that are now being realized due to the many security issues in software. as consumers begin realizing that software

  • What wud u call a job that makes u stay up all nite and assume a false persona and answer mind numbing questions again and again and again and ...
    A dream
    especially since you get an above average salary and above average perks
    Many of my friends who did work in a call center felt that the job was not that bad, but don't even think about staying for more than 4 months, A view endorsed in the story

    > Questions have also been raised about the quality of the work, which involves grueling hours and can

  • New emerging markets aren't playing fair ? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by zymano ( 581466 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @03:06PM (#7543294)
    Did the Indian government 'target' the U.S. I.T. industry ? Is their government pushing people into I.T. seeing that we just allow job flow to their country while we get no equal access to their market ? If this is not the case then this is just ONE WAY trade. We lose all our capital with nothing in return. Think about all those jobs that created a synergy in our economy and the goods people bought. Don't get me wrong. I am all for open 'fair' free trade but India and China are not the most 'open and free' markets. These two countries ban most of our exports. I do know of the trade conflict right now with Chinese textiles the Bush administration is using as 'leverage' to open their markets and because because of terrible publicity of all the IT and textile job losses(elections).

    So to sum up. These two countries ban our exports and China manipulates their currency(google,recent news) to gain marketshare and we sit here talking about how great this is. We need to open Indias and Chinas markets up more if we want to create more jobs here. Lets hope this is an issue in the next presidential elections.

    Please don't retaliate and call me with cliched term 'protectionist'.

    • Re:New emerging markets aren't playing fair ? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by WIAKywbfatw ( 307557 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @03:21PM (#7543356) Journal
      I'm sure your post is particularly interesting to former steel workers in Wales and elsewhere around the world that have lost their jobs because of the hefty import tarriffs on foreign steel introduced by the Bush administration.

      Seriously, if you're going to talk about free markets, then feel free to do so. But first have the decency to acknowledge that the US definition of free trade isn't 100 percent free.
      • Nope, it's not free. Buying congressmen costs. But maybe not a much as I think if some 2 bit company like Wrigleys can buy enough congressional support to get the Commerce Dept. to force Singapore to allow import of chewing gum. I mean how critical can the export of chewing gum be to the US economy. And the chewing gum ban was the one strict Singapore law that made sense. Well ok, they have strict toilet laws, too. But, then they are the headquarters of the World Toilet Organization [worldtoilet.org]. Good website. T

    • Re:New emerging markets aren't playing fair ? (Score:4, Informative)

      by univgeek ( 442857 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @03:35PM (#7543414)
      Ummm, India's market is quite 'free' and open. Most of the consumer products are manufactured by multi-nationals. India also has much larger imports than exports.

      As a developing country, some products do have import tariffs, but this is pretty much the same as any country I guess. Most multi-nationals are now competing in India, and how many complaints have you seen that India is a closed market??

      Futher, India is a member of the Wto, and is therefore bound by al its statutes. Many countries have initiated action against some tariffs imposed by India, and these tariffs have been removed/reduced. Pretty much the same as the Bush position on Steel Imports.

      The India of the 80's is not the India of the 90's, 00's...

    • Re:New emerging markets aren't playing fair ? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 23, 2003 @03:41PM (#7543450)
      You've got SOME nerve calling India and china protectionists! US and EU are the largest farm
      subsidisers in the world and directly responsible for destroying the livelihoods of millions of poor farmers around the world. Do you have no shame at all? Here's just one small fact for you: In 2001, the 25,000 US cotton growers received roughly $3.9 billion in subsidy payments, for producing a cotton crop that was worth only US$ 3 billion at world market prices (One Arkansas cotton grower received US $ 6 million, equal to the combined annual earnings of 25,000 cotton farmers in Mali). Such are the glaring inequalities, that an American cotton farmer on an average receives US $ 10.7 million a day as subsidies. More for pacifying the public sympathies than for correcting the dirty economics, the WTO did consider the contentious issue of cotton subsidies, as if it was an isolated case of exploitation of developing country farmers.

      Throw this statistic at your Congressman and ask him why US is waging an economic war against the most vulnerable sections of humanity and driving them into poverty, death and destruction.

      Wake the f**k up and stop this war!!
      http://www.dsharma.org/trade/america.htm

      • You've got SOME nerve calling India and china protectionists!

        Yeah? Try to get a job in Bangalore (assuming that you aren't a citizen)

      • American corn subsidies were actually one of the root causes of the Zapatista revolt. A large portion of the population in Chiapas, one of the more impoverished Mexican states, subsided on corn sales. They are completely unsubsidized of course. With their marginal land (the best was swallowed up by Haciendas long ago) and primitive machinery they would have a tough time competing with Iowa corn farmers. With the massive goverment subsidies that U.S. farmers receive it's not even a contest. The Zapatist
    • Actually, the U.S. is very protectionist. From a Canadian perspective, our soft-wood lumber exports to the U.S. were recently slapped with a massive tarrif for no other reason than that they were substantially cheaper than american soft-wood. Despite a WTO ruling in Canada's favour, (i.e. that the tarrifs are illegal) those tarrifs are still in place.

      Another good example was the recent BSE scare in Alberta. It was discovered that one cow had the disease, and after a massive investigation that was double
  • One of my colleagues takes a flight down here to London every week (city-hops are quite cheap, often the airport tax is more than the fare) and works here 2 or 3 days a week, then commutes back to Scotland for the rest of the week. Online via ADSL and Bob's your Auntie's live-in lover....

    The scots do have something of a history of technical excellence, so it's a shame that Silicon Glen is running into trouble, imho.

    Simon.

  • No, they are paid quite well (Score:5, Informative)

    by alphakappa ( 687189 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @03:38PM (#7543427) Homepage
    do not convert rupees to dollars - use the PPP(Purchasing Power Parity) according to which 1$ ~=Rs 8 instead of Rs 50 according to the conversion rate. Going by the current cost of living in india, an entry level engineer who is paid Rs. 25,000 ($500) is a comfortable sum), comparable to being paid $50k p.a. in the U.S. And if you are smart enough, you can rise up to P.L. or higher in a couple of years, and your salary goes up tremendously.
    There is one difference though - no one keeps to 40hr weeks - your work schedule depends on the project. I've known my friends back home to work even on weekends when a project deadline is near. It may sound bad, but for young 21-25 year olds, it's not a big pain. It also creates the kind of productivity that took Japan to the top - societies can afford to have comfortable 40 hr. weeks after they have advanced enough (and then see their jobs being taken away by other places where THEY are willing to work 60 hr. weeks)

    • I don't know anyone who works (or worked) in the North American technology industry that works a 40-hour week. Officially those may be the working hours stated in the job description but, in practice, 50-75 hours per week is the norm for anyone I ever met. That doesn't count travel time for those who travel as part of their jobs (sales engineers, etc).

      Most salaried tech workers are implicitly (often explicitly) expected to work more hours than they are officially paid for.

      It's part of the reason that tech
    • There is one difference though - no one keeps to 40hr weeks - your work schedule depends on the project. I've known my friends back home to work even on weekends when a project deadline is near. It may sound bad, but for young 21-25 year olds, it's not a big pain. It also creates the kind of productivity that took Japan to the top - societies can afford to have comfortable 40 hr. weeks after they have advanced enough (and then see their jobs being taken away by other places where THEY are willing to work 60
      • "Work smarter, not harder" in programming jobs is not an empty motto, it's the very essense of using your time effectively.

        You're probably right about that, and I do agree that if you just throw manpower at problems, you'll get solutions that work, but are not elegant, or the most efficient ones. I used to program before I threw myself full time into engineering, and it pisses me off to see badly written code. The industry is such that so-and-so project has to be done in such-and-such time within so-much
    • I've had to work more than a few times over the weekend for artificial reasons, not even because an end of the project was near! More because the project planners felt nervous abour the project status...

      So it sounds like things might even be a little more reasonable there!

  • We ought to be allowed to be as mobile as jobs. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by thisissilly ( 676875 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @03:49PM (#7543489)
    IMO, the part of the problem with outsourcing is that the jobs are mobile, but the people are not allowed to be as mobile as the jobs, due to immigration laws.

    For instance, if my job were outsource to India for 1/3 of the salary they pay me, but that turns out to be a decent living wage in India, I can't say "fine, I'll take the pay cut and move to India!", even if I want to. If all the jobs in my area of expertise move out of the country, I can't follow them, I have to find a new field of employment, because of artificial barriers to my mobility.

    If there are going to be artificial barriers to my mobility, I want artificial barriers to my job's mobility as well.

    • What barrier? You can move to India, and as a foreigner, have people fawning all over you.

      But when I move (legally) to the US, I'm accused of job-stealing, treated like dirt (that's just racism, though), and made to bend over backwards while illegal immigrants from various places are allowed a free run of the place, given subsidised education, etc.
      • I understand your frustration with what I agree is a raw deal for you. However, Americans are impeded from getting these jobs in India, according to this article in CIO Magazine, "No Americans Need Apply [cio.com]."

        This is unfortunate because I would definitely consider moving to India to follow the IT jobs. Instead I will have to stay here and face unemployment.
        • The article was based on a single persons account. Moreover, like in the US these days, you cannot get jobs JUST be talking over the phone. If he tried just a little bit harder, like go thru somebody who has contacts in India, go to a head hunter etc, he would certaintly have got a fair deal.

          Recently, there was an article in one of the Indian newpapers about people from Europe working in New Delhi. I will post it here if can find it.

          In short, if you are TRULY interested, you CAN get a job there.

  • Adam Smith was no fool (Score:4, Insightful)

    by OffTheLip ( 636691 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @03:53PM (#7543505)
    Call it what you like but a free market economy even in the new world order will still cater to a product delivered at the lowest price. Outsourcing is a fact of economic life, innovation is the answer. If more "third world" programmers and designers rise above cookie cutter programming watch out.

  • US & India are entwined in an intimate embrace (Score:3, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 23, 2003 @04:19PM (#7543611)
    http://www.fortune.com/fortune/investing/articles/ 0,15114,538786,00.html

    Every weekday, as the tropical sun begins its swift descent over the Deccan plain, fleets of what the Indians call "multi-utility vehicles" fan out across Bangalore. The Tata Sumos and Toyota Qualises bump along the potholed, muddy residential streets of India's fifth-largest city, stopping to pick up young men and women and carry them to work. Then, as business hours begin in the Eastern U.S., thousands of these young Indians don telephone headsets and do their enthusiastic best to help the American people get their Internet service working, figure out their credit card bills, and order tacky limited-edition collectibles.

    After years of wondering what all those fiber-optic cables laid around the earth at massive expense in the late 1990s would ever be good for, we finally have an answer: They're good for enabling call-center workers in Bangalore or Delhi to sound as if they're next door to everyone. Broadband's killer app, it turns out, is India.

    It's not just about call centers. In Bangalore some 110,000 people are employed writing software, designing chips, running computer systems, reading MRIs, processing mortgages, preparing tax forms, and doing other essential work for U.S., European, Japanese, and even Chinese companies. Intel, Cisco, Oracle, Philips, and GE are among the multinationals with significant R&D facilities there. AOL, Accenture, and Ernst & Young have big operations in town too. Scores more Western corporations outsource work to Indian companies like Bangalore-based IT services firms Infosys and Wipro.

    Meanwhile, GE Capital employs more than 15,000 people in Delhi and other Indian cities who answer calls from credit card customers, do accounting work, manage computer networks, and the like. In Chennai (formerly Madras), a staff of 350 design the PowerPoint presentations that McKinsey consultants around the world show their clients. In Mumbai (Bombay), Morgan Stanley has been hiring equity analysts to help cover U.S. companies from 102 time zones away. There are more than 350,000 people working in IT services and outsourcing in India now; the number is expected to pass one million before 2008.

    The attraction of the Indian knowledge workers who get those jobs is that they're paid 10% to 20% of what Americans would expect for similar work--and in many cases they do it better. That has stoked understandable alarm in the U.S. Together with China's rise in manufacturing, it is bringing protectionists out of the woodwork. It is also causing even those of a less reactionary bent to wonder just what it is that Americans will do for a living now that even knowledge work can easily be sent overseas.

    And what do those young Indian knowledge workers (they are, overwhelmingly, young) think about this turn of events? Sitting on the terrace one pleasant October evening at a swank Bangalore bar called the 13th Floor (which is in fact on the 13th floor of an office building on M.G.--short for Mahatma Gandhi--Road, the city's main drag), I pose the question to a group of young managers and engineers from Wipro: "Do you feel bad about taking jobs from Americans?"

    Several of them respond with a torrent of economic reasoning that would have made David Ricardo, the 19th-century English apostle of free trade, proud. Trade enriches all, they say. The American economy will take the money it's saving by outsourcing and invest it in the growth industries of the future. Besides, the U.S., Western Europe, and Japan will all face labor shortages in a few years as their populations age.

    "Try explaining that to the customers I'm talking to," retorts Sapna Sudhir, a 28-year-old with a razor wit who manages IT projects for retailers, mostly in the U.S. "'Let's talk about the transition process,' I tell them. 'I'm going to transition your job to India.' ...There's a lot of hostility." Sudhir waxes conflicted about this for a few moments. Then she slips into

  • U.S Humor (Score:5, Funny)

    by rlp ( 11898 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @04:27PM (#7543639)
    1998
    Q: What did the high school grad say to the Computer Science Major?
    A: Would you like fries with that?

    2003
    Q: What did the high school grad say to the Computer Science Major?
    A: You're supposed to ask them if they want fries with that!
    • 2015
      Q: What did the high school grad say to the Computer Science Major?
      A: Can I have a copy of "McD.Fries.[circa_2014].Molecular.Blueprint.zip" for my desktop manufacturing box? Thanks!

      --

  • This is a quote:

    "I won't get into near term specifics but a comment that my brother made is apt. "Most of the problems of the third world will be solved when you can get three types of raspberry vinagrette in a small town in the middle of Cambodia...""
    --John Ringo

    http://www.baen.com

  • quality and price (Score:4, Interesting)

    by xPertCodert ( 596934 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @08:16PM (#7544754)
    I am an Israeli. and have been working in the local Hi-tech industry for the last 10.5 years. when I started working here in 1993, a common monthly wage for an senior software engineer was around 2000$. it peaked in y2000 at about 6000$ and now it's somewhere in a range of 3.5K-5K$ a month. ( if you can get a job, that is. and that's not bad at all in terms of average wage here at around 1700$ month. And the reason for it is because the quality of the local hi-tech product is very high. and a lot of companies are willing to pay this money + benefits in order to get it. Just ask the likes of Intel, Motorola, TI, HP etc which have major R&D centers here. ( sometimes the only ones abroad). However it's very different when it comes to India. I worked with lot's of code produced by major Indian outsourcing companies (Like Wipro, for example) and I can say tht those guys are not really ready for prime-time. (No offence, I hope) So it all comes down to quality vs. price. Nowdays there are a lot of companies that are willing to pay far less money to get the job done and they don't mind quick and dirty approach. and that's where India comes in. But if you want to do something serious, you'll never outsource there, at least for now. and I am sure that when those guys will get quality and experience, their price WILL go up and become comparabale to the prices in the developed countries. BTW there are also trends to import cheap workforce to some country close but outside US or EU. for example Cyprus. I personaly know companies that moved development centers there and employ hundreds of Indian guys for fraction of a price. but as I say in the long run you always get what you payed for.
  • Chandigarh was developed as a planned city to showcase modern India. Le Corbusier along with Indian architechts (e.g., Balkrishna Doshi) brought this wonder into being. It is not a slum-shanty town, but it is a modern city. Chandigarh already had a great tech infrastructure. SCI (Semiconductor Corporation of India) had a huge silicon wafer fabrication facility that got burnt due to a possible sabotage. So having tech jobs in a place that has had a silicon foundry since a decade is not at all surprising

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