The Problem with DHS's Plan to 'Buy American' 626
An anonymous reader points out a Cnet report on the
Homeland Security Authorization Act, which would require that more than 50 percent of the components in any end product bought by the Department of Homeland Security be produced or manufactured in the U.S., writing "The Pentagon has agreements with 21 countries that waive the act, but an amendment that just passed the House would prevent the DHS from waiving the 'Buy American' restrictions. "The president of the Information Technology Association of America observed that this means the DHS may 'have to learn to do without computers and cell phones,' since he could not think of any manufacturers of those devices that would meet the 50% threshold."
Buy American? (Score:5, Funny)
Sad but true.
Re:Buy American? (Score:3, Funny)
oddly enough... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:oddly enough... (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps. But the nickname of the long-time Saudi ambassador to the US is not "Bandar Clinton", but "Bandar Bush", reflecting his longtime personal relationship to the Bush family. There's no question as to which party the Saudis prefer doing business with.
your point being what? (Score:5, Insightful)
If the current president still doesn't know that continuing the US-Saudi relationship on these terms is a mistake, he is either stupid, or has a financial interest in the relationship that keeps him from doing the right thing, or both.
Damned if you do, Damned if you don't. (Score:4, Insightful)
We go somewhere, people complain, we don't, they still complain.
World politics are messy, but sometimes I think that invasion is the only way to clean somewhere up. I would have taken out Iraq better than 10 years ago.
I figure that the only reason Bush used the WMD argument for going into Iraq was because that was what the Europeans would go for. I figure that we went in because it was a humanitarian nightmare, we had forces tied up just guarding the border, he was flaunting the sanctions, the oil for food program was a joke because of all the corruption, and Bush didn't want another Cuba hanging around for decades.
I'll say this: 99.9% of the starvation in the world today is political in nature. And yes, I consider most war political in nature.
Re:your point being what? (Score:3, Informative)
And plenty of democracy and freedom in the world despite American intervention. And even more that didn't survive 'the advancement of democracy and freedom' via Military Advisor [kominf.pp.fi]. Chile, 1973 [64.233.183.104], for example? Or Nicaragua, 1984 [coha.org]?
Partisan (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Buy American? (Score:3, Insightful)
Not believing poor old Colin Powell after he'd been lied to?
That's insulting?
Re:Buy American? (Score:4, Informative)
Chirac complained about GWB interfering in EU/Turkey relations
Miller says:
Completely missing the point, Chirac didn't complain about the US commenting on Mexico or vice versa, he said that he (Chirac) had as little right to interfere in US/Mexican relations as GWB has to "support" Turkeys EU membership application.
Miller then blathers on:
Oh, dear. France is "economically stagnant". Turkey is "an emerging democracy". So Turkey should just ignore France, eh?
Of course this is all bollocks. France has a veto on who joins the union, just like all the other member states. Of course Turkey cares what France thinks.
And, unlike the idiot Miller:
Turkey knows that Chirac is in fact one of the EU leaders who are pushing for Turkey's membership. That's why he complained about GWB's wrecking intervention.
Frankly having GWB "support" Turkeys membership application is just about the best way to make sure it is rejected.
Which, given the pronouncements of some of the NeoCon nutters, may have been what GWB's speach was for.
Hahahaha (Score:5, Funny)
Congress is just out of it, like always.
Re:Hahahaha (Score:5, Interesting)
I remember a US school district dumped apple laptops for schools because they werent made in the US.
Wonder which US-made laptops they picked up instead. mattel?
Re:Hahahaha (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Hahahaha (Score:5, Insightful)
It used to be that we ran our economy on manufacturing. Then we made a shift to a "service economy" which lasted a couple years before the services followed the factories. This left American capital with no way to grow. The housing bubble that we are now seeing is a consequence of that capital seeking a way to increase in an industrial economy that doesn't make anything anymore. America is no longer producing real wealth. The housing bubble is a delusional way for residual capital to continue to produce wealth, even if only for a short time.
Now we run our economy on asset appreciation, and buy all other goods and services from overseas with borrowed money. The only sector of this economy that can appropriately be called "manufacturing" is the construction industry, which has perfected the creation of grotesque McMansions that require a trip in a car just to get to the nearest grocery store. Zoning laws typically forbid anything to be built within walking distance of a McMansion, except other McMansions, so as to avoid even a momentary pause in the overall housing appreciation on which the American economy (and the property tax) depends.
Paradoxically, it seems everyone wants to live in a place where nobody makes anything anymore, and has to drive to get anywhere (like say a place that sells cheap Chinese crap or oversized food portions) because these house prices just keep going through the roof! I know people who made more money last year just living in their ugly condos than coming in to work. Careers in real estate are extremely attractive at the moment. It's a way you can still make lots of money even if your limited skills prove incapable of producing real wealth. And real estate is a magnet for investors, to the detriment of real industries that need infusion of capital. What venture capitalist in his right mind is going to invest in some factory making widgets when he can sink his capital in some pricey real estate and double his money in a few years? A bubble can often crowd out other forms of investment. Nobody wants to invest in anything but houses or dotcom stocks or tulips or whatever.
When the bubble pops, an enormous amount of housing will suddenly hit the market as speculators liquidate at the highest price. There will be lots of money flying around for a short while, then it will disappear and America will become a nation of overweight suckers who don't make anything trapped in their houses full of cheap Chinese shit paying adjustable rates with an average 3% equity position on properties that have lost 30-40% of their value since being purchased at bubble prices. And after treating the currency like a cheap whore for so long with overextended credit, we will find that the inflationary pressure on the dollar has driven up interest rates. As incomes collapse, the bond market will be flooded with T-bills crowding out private borrowing as the government desperately seeks capital at high interest to prosecute the wars that secure access to the oil markets upon which this house of cards has been built. It's awfully hard to fight wars when you don't make anything, but we have no choice when we live in houses that require a steady supply of gasoline just to be livable. The plan is to borrow forever and pray that the Rapture comes to save America and help us get out of actually paying all these loans back to the Asian banks who are now nervous about holding so much dollar-denominated American debt.
I suggest that if DHS wants to "buy American", they should station their field agents in houses in Atherton where the median house price was $2.5 million (when I hit Preview the first time, it may have gone up by the time I clicked Submit). Set up some cheap interest only loans at an adjustable rate. Tom Ridge just has to remember to "refi" every couple months and sell when the getting's still good, and the program will pay for itself, at least for now, maybe until the end of the term in 2008.
Re:Hahahaha (Score:5, Interesting)
As pointed out in popular movies such as Fahrenheit 9/11, Saudi money comprises a couple percent of the US economy. That's a lot. About as much as Wal-Mart.
If that money went away we'd be feeling it very hard. But, I think there's a 90% chance that doesn't happen.
Think of it as a game of chicken. The US and other countries are in a game of chicken. We all know that our currency is quickly losing real value, but people are too afraid and too dependent on the US economy to "pull out". Japan might be a big electronics buyer itself, but many more of its products are shipped overseas, primarily to the USA. If our market of consumers disappeared, so would their production economy.
The game of chicken continues until one of two things occurs. (1) Other countries pull out of the US. A cascade effect occurs and the world is in a depression. (2) Other countries don't pull out and slow, steady inflation causes US foreign debts to be effectively erased.
Lots of powerful companies are banking on #2 to happen. If #1 happens, everyone loses, but if #2 happens, it's really the poor people, the factory workers and sweatshop slaves, in 3rd world countries that lose out.
Re:Hahahaha (Score:4, Insightful)
The game of chicken continues until one of two things occurs. (1) Other countries pull out of the US. A cascade effect occurs and the world is in a depression. (2) Other countries don't pull out and slow, steady inflation causes US foreign debts to be effectively erased.
There's a number (3): the world economy gradually loses its dependency on the US economy, then other countries pull out of the US, and the rest of the world is just fine. This is what I think will happen over the next fifty years.
Re:Hahahaha (Score:3, Interesting)
Your post makes one clear point (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Hahahaha (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't have quite such a dire view as you do, though. Of course, the thing with economics is when we realize the worst that could happen, we can prevent it from happening. The fact that the government knows that Weimar inflation is possible, makes it improbable.
However, the current government, to say the least,
seems to have the habit of ignoring reality. The thing is, the American economy actually can survive quite high trade and budget deficits for a while...but not forever. I believe that if we are lucky, as the American dollar gets weaker, imports will get more expensive and manufactring will be cost-feasible in this country. Thats the good version. The bad version is some type of shock hits the global economy, people panic, people pull money out of the economy, the US can't find a way to fianance its debt...and general badness follows.
For my own "I told you so" points, I wrote about this happening in May of 2003:
The Two Tiered Economy [everything2.com]
Real estate appreciation scam (Score:4, Informative)
I agree on your point on senseless real estate appreciation and have been making similar comments myself for years. Houses do not appreciate, they depreciate; the damn things fall apart. The land may, however, may appreciate in value if it is in a popular area (i.e. a city). I always thought that real estate appreciation was a scam concocted by real estate agents to offset their commissions. If every time you sold your house it sold for the same price that you bought it for, you would be out $10,000 in commissions. This would make you seriously look at why you are paying $10,000 for a (usually incompetent) agent. Fortunately, appraisals are done by real estate agents; often not the agent selling the house but a buddy. So, you jack up the appraisal of the house by at least the amount of the commissions so you don't pay too much attention to why you are paying five times as much for a real estate bimbo to sell your house as you would a surgeon for life saving surgery (the hospital will make up the difference, though). Did the seller do any remodelling or redecorating? Add the cost of that (plus some) to the appraisal as well. Never mind that they buyer will probably have to spend more money undoing the "improvements".
These real estate idiots are way behind on using technology and actual information to sell houses. A few now offer panoramic camera views. A large number of people who buy houses do so in a different city than the one they now live in and those that live in the same city have better things to do with their time than shlep around to houses that could have been ruled out with a real estate bimbo who insists on showing houses during customers working hours. Hire some architecture students to draw up a decent floorplan/3D model of the house, take pictures that are linked so you can select any view of each room from the floorplan, and photograph, catalog, and test all ethernet, phone, cable tv, and electrical outlets including which circuit breaker they connect to. Real estate agent incompetence and the constant stream of disinterested potential buyers traipsing through also severely impacts the lives of people who live in rental property which is being sold to a new landlord. Give people decent virtual tours at their convenience and then let them visit the house only if it is really one of their top candidates.
Besides making real estate agents among the top ten overpaid professions [physicsforums.com] in America, housing is not affordable to those entering the housing market. When the baby boomers, who bought their first houses for realistic prices before appreciation ran amok under favorable loan terms, die off the bubble will have to burst.
Re:Real estate appreciation scam (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not very familiar with economics, but I think that another reason for overpriced housing is the fact that banks have virtually no restrictions on who they're lending to. My understanding has been that you need at least 10% of the purchase price for a downpayment, preferably 20%, and you need to have good credit
I'm from Ireland. Bwah hah hah hah! (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, our government may be bad at running our country in some ways, but they are sly devious conmen when it comes to business and attracting industry/multinationals to Ireland.
After all, despite the massive US interest - they account for something like 20-25% of businesses in Ireland - although that's a lot, that means we've a lot more companies that aren't from the US! It also means we've
Re:And the penalty would be? (Score:4, Insightful)
Otherwise, the Corps won't sign off on the job and we don't get paid.
Oh, attention will be paid (Score:4, Insightful)
OTOH, what sort of remark is it concerning the US that it is simply not cost-effective to make anything here anymore?
I'll try to be positive, and avoid the flamebait flogging of last week by saying: demonstrate some US-designed and built products (that don't suck), and I'll happily buy. For a company with the right marketing, it's a good opportunity.
duh.. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:duh.. (Score:2)
What about General Electric?
Intel?
Microsoft is definitely US-based (and they do make some hardware even)
Re:duh.. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:duh.. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:duh.. (Score:3, Informative)
According to Intel, both Costa Rica [intel.com] and Philipines [intel.com] sites are assembly / testing facilities, no Fabs. The actual Fabs are in New Mexico, California (possibly), MA (the old DEC facility I think), Oregon, Ireland and Isreal.
Re:duh.. (Score:5, Interesting)
examples:
Bose Wave Radio
McIntosh audio equipment
Apple's XServes
IBM servers and mainframes
Cisco Routers
Netopia Routers
AMI Motherboards
Lots of commercial electronics for things like autos, CNC machines, telephony
The same goes for electrical components that you don't see like Illinois Capacitors, TadCom resistors, several OEM power supplies
The real reason that so much industry has moved overseas to places like China and India, is that there are very loose environmental and worker safety rules. Manufacturing electronics involves toxic chemicals that are very expensive to dispose of in Germany, US and Japan
Re:duh.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, that's right, and those people are poisoning themselves, particularly in China. The pollution in the industrial cities is so bad that if it goes unchecked, it will, paradoxically, threaten their economic survival. Ruined land and water is no good to anybody.
Tangentially: have you ever driven on I-80 through the Rust Belt? I'm talking about former manufacturing hubs like Buffalo, Gary, and parts of Cleveland. They look abandoned. And the factories? Rusting and abandoned. It's sad, not only because of the unemployment and social upheaval, but because great swaths of that abandoned land cannot be reclaimed for agriculture. The soil and groundwater is too polluted. So the hulks of the factories remain, the rusting monuments to America's fading greatness.
Now, what's really eerie are all of the abandoned strip malls: just boarded-up buildings and weedy expanses of grey asphalt. Nearby, you find housing built in the 40's and 50's, some abandoned by the people who once made their livings in the factories, some filled with poor immigrants, others by retirees who try to keep up appearances and put out their flags on Independence Day. I'm not being lurid here, either. There are a thousand towns like this and they are depressing places. What will become of them?
Re:duh.. (Score:5, Funny)
What China needs is an armed revolution by the working classes, overthrowing their government and setting up a true worker's paradi... oh, er, nevermind.
Re:duh.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Eventually there'll be no more small farms to confiscate through eminent domain or blighted land clauses (or steal through various social programs). At that point, it'll be cheaper to turn an abandoned strip mall or abandoned factory into something else than it will be to force 50-60 millionaires out of their $500,000 homes (sitting on an entire half acre each!).
Like most everything else, this is a cycle. We'll eventually have to choose between un-improving/un-developing (w
Re:duh.. (Score:4, Interesting)
As for soil reclaimation, the situation is better. There has been a lot of research into high-temperature composting, which breaks down toxic leftovers in the soil. Alas, if that soil contains heavy metals, as is often the case, then those must be removed by other means. All of this is quite labor-intensive, and therefore expensive, but some brownfield sites have been turned into parks and gardens this way. I, for one, would love to see a rejuvenated Rust Belt. I'd also like to see the people responsible for these messes be forced to clean them up, rather than socializing the problems that capitalists created, which is what we're doing now.
Re:duh.. (Score:3, Informative)
Big-ass pumps, an air stripper to move the MTBE to the gas phase, activated charcoal to trap it temporarily, a heater to periodically drive the it off the charcoal, and something that can incinerate or trap the recondensed nasties. These systems are available commercially. It is more expensive than not leaking the nasties in the first place, but they are by no means permanent additions to the soil.
Re:duh.. (Score:4, Informative)
As a kid, my dad would bring my brother and I down there in the boat and watch the fires. Fires, literraly on the river, they'd just start spontaneously, it almost seems surreal thinking about that experience. It was almost like a weird scene out of mad-max/apolocalpyse now/terminator.
"made" vs. "assembled" (Score:3, Informative)
For example, most (all?) Dell desktops are assembled in the US. Dell maintains factories here, whith US workers to put together the "custom-configured" hardware they're so famous for. (Dell laptops come from overseas like everyone else's.)
The components they assemble, of course, are all from overseas. The cases, motherboards, drives, memory, power supplies...almost always imported. The criteria in the bill specifies >50% domestic c
Re:duh.. (Score:4, Funny)
It was made by the ever-cool Japanese, who are the source of most anime, all sushi, and many fun-to-practice martial arts. They're also the people who forced the U.S. auto industry to make an effort to produce good cars again. And (this is the trump card) they gave us the Playstation II.
Yay, Japan! Keep up the good work, guys, we love ya.
DHS (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:DHS (Score:2, Funny)
Yes, when I think smart decisions and effiency, I think US goverment.
Re:DHS (Score:5, Informative)
This ruling applies to custom development (hardware/software) only. So DHS can buy all the cell phones they want from Taiwan. If they want buy something that does not exist in the commercial market, then "Buy American" applies.
Re:DHS (Score:5, Interesting)
This leaves us in a bit of a bind. Most foreign-made items we use DO have an American made option, but it is - horrors! - an INFERIOR option. One we would never use otherwise. Luckily, the more critical components are made by companies that the DOD has on their exceptions list, but it still means we have to deal with the paperwork verifying that.
Side Effects (Score:5, Insightful)
This is not just bad for free software, but this is a clarifying special case of why this requirement is in practice a subsidy. Things will be bought that are not required to do the job.
In addition, it should be remembered that US dollars flow back to where they can be used as legal tender. Ie: the US. Buying goods from abroad initiates the whole process of trade. But then economic and scientific illiteracy are patriotic: Americans live in a post-rational culture AFAICT.
Re:Side Effects (Score:3, Funny)
Too bad my Powermatic saw was one of the last of their products made in the US - an Apple PowerMac G5 with integrated 13" surface planer could be dang handy...
*BZZT* Wrong (Score:5, Informative)
Here's is the shocker: China does not run a large trade surplus. (Serious, it's very very small, and was in '04 only slightly in the black.) Now, the numbers "experts" give you tell you that the US ran a $160bn trade deficit with China in the year to April '05. But that is against an overall trade surplus of just $26bn (which, trust me, isn't a lot of money when it comes to surpluses and deficits.)
(For details on China's trade performance, check this http://www.uschina.org/statistics/2005tradeperfor
But this is not relevent: China imports as much as it exports. It just happens not to import a lot from the US. It does however import a lot from Germany (which, along with Japan is the world's largest manufacturer of capital goods). So, China has a trade deficit with Germany, and a trade surplus with the US. Now: go to Germany. Who do they buy from? Well, lets start with the US. Germany imports a terrific amount of software and financial services from the US.
So: money goes US -> China -> Germany -> US ->
(Now, this isn't great if you work in the manufacturing sector in the US, and your job goes to China. But it is great if you're selling fund management products to the Germans.)
Here's another shocker. Between 1998 and 2005, the US lost 2m manufacturing jobs (while, it should be noted, manufacturing output rose). And those jobs went to China, right? No. China lost 15m jobs. Yes, you heard that right fiftenn million manufacturing jobs were lost. (The result, I should add, of moving from an inefficient state system to a marginally more efficient private system.)
Anyway: the point I make is a simple one. Focussing on bilateral trade surpluses or deficits is stupid. You have to look at the system. You also have to remember that those trade deficit/surplus numbers are vey bad at capturing so called "invisible" exports, such as financial services.
Cheers,
Robert
Re:DHS (Score:3, Interesting)
In other words, for a company to make a commercial tool just for a DHS spec, it would be essentially coding on spec but without a contract. And given that the DHS would presumably be putting out a contract because they couldn't find the product in the market already, that
Re:DHS (Score:3, Insightful)
What _does_ the USA have to offer? Think about it - almost all the manufacturing industries have moved out/are moving out, and the US is largely going towards being nothing more than a consumer (okay, maybe I'm exaggerating a little, but you get the idea).
But that's not necessarily a bad thing, either. As long as you are the economy controlling those industries outside of the US and have a good enough purchasing power, things will be fine and dandy.
The only way to ensure that thi
Re:DHS (Score:3, Interesting)
A little? More than a little. Quite abit more.
There are 14.5 million U.S. manufacturing jobs. About a quarter of those are low-risk for export as no other nation has enough ability to even challenge them. About 2/3rds are in a "medium risk" level where
Re:DHS (Score:3, Interesting)
Minerals, chemicals, and enough food to support nations that are unable to grow enough to support their own populations.
Minerals? IIRC, every major gold mine in the US is foreign owned. Environmental protection laws are also driving up the cost and regulatory burden on mines so steeply that very few new major mines have opened in the past several decades, while dozens have closed. Mineral extraction is a fading industry in the US...the number of mines and miner
Re:DHS (Score:3, Interesting)
If you transfer all of the production capability necessary for the existence of your society to other nations, China for instance, what exactly do you do if:
A. There is a war with China and it engulfs Taiwan, Korea, Japan and the rest of Asia.
B. China decides to exploit its stranglehold on your econo
Re:DHS (Score:4, Interesting)
the DHS never really apeard to be a main gouvernment brach dealing with the national security , after all you have several organisation who already partake in that function. It is as QUANGO organisation set in place to put peoples minds at rest.
sad (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:sad (Score:3, Interesting)
Rather than call it sad, I'd call it hypocritical. It's proof that the people at the top don't truly believe in 100% free market capitalism, contrary to what all their constituents seem to chant like Republican mantras.
Guess what companies are going to be making these custom products for DHS? The same companies that spend hundreds of millions of dollars lobbying in Washington to secure
The problem really is (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The problem really is (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The problem really is (Score:5, Informative)
Or, say, softwood lumber?
Who labelled this flamebait? (Score:3, Insightful)
Any country (my own included - UK) which imposes virtually ANY form of trade sanctions, does so to protect their over-priced home produce. This perpetuates global poverty by preventing someone from competing against you.
This is a bizarre twist on trade sanctions - I'll give you that. But to demand that a certain percentage of a product is manufactured in your own country just smacks too much of trade protection.
For security? Give me a break. . .
Re:The problem really is (Score:4, Insightful)
Other sectors, like textiles and consumer electronics, are not shielded by tariffs and consequently, those companies have either shut down or been moved overseas, ironically enough to places like China and India, who place outrageous tariffs on numerous categories of imports in order to bolster their own industries.
This is a situation that directly pits U.S. economic strength against the cheap, tariff-protected workers in the Asian economies, a losing proposition for the U.S, which is why we see political band-aids like DHS's unworkable subsidy program. The "Buy American" program will reassure the more naive voters that the new state police buraucracy will not only protect their physical safety, but their economic safety as well, when in fact it will do neither, not only because they are as incompetent as any other government agency, but because the American industries to provide the equipment they need no longer exist. If it proceeds, it will resurrect in a certain, zombie-like fashion, a passel of inefficient, politically-connected companies (I'm thinking Bechtel and Halliburton here) who will draw their pay more or less directly from the pockets of taxpayers. You could call it socialistic, but a better term would be "crony capitalist," which is socialism for wealthy parasites. It is very much like the New Deal programs, but unlike the America those programs helped/fleeced, I don't think the modern America will recover. We've become a vulgar mob administered by feudal masters, but I digress.
Now, let the real flaming begin. I think I hear the ultranationalists coming...
Re:The problem really is (Score:3, Funny)
Fiat made vastly more *interesting* cars.
Re:The problem really is (Score:4, Informative)
No such thing as guaranteed employment (Score:3, Insightful)
Sitting at an oak table? You might want to knock on that wood. A set of degrees is just one part of your resume. Once you take that first job after you get your fourth degree, you'll be on a career path, which will determine far more than your educational background after a few short years.
I'm also surprised that you are thinking of your future based solely on what you consider to be better job opportunities in Asia. The
Re:Economic ignorance (Score:3, Informative)
Forgive me if my arguments weren't well-structured. To clarify, I argued that tariffs harmed Chrysler by shielding them from real market competition, thereby making them uncompetitive when "foreign" manufacturers like Honda and Toyota chose to subvert the tariffs by moving their production closer to their intended market,
Not to worry... (Score:5, Funny)
No need to worry about this. DHS will just have the regs changed to mean that 50% of components by weight must come from within the US. Then they can just add lead weights to every computer case and cell phone housing manufactured in the US, to allow all those patriotic manufacturers to make some scratch off the war on terror.
9/11! NEVER FORGET!
Re:Not to worry... (Score:5, Funny)
The US is getting awfully close to old Russia theese days.
Who makes what (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:That, and we're feeding a good chunk of the wor (Score:3, Insightful)
To whom it may apply:
People, please remember the above sentence the next time you complain about agricultural protectionism
by other nations or their reluctance to use genetically modified&patented seeds.
To ensure future independance from foreign nations for food supply is a very good reason for a nation to
use subventions or agricultural tariffs to protect its farmers.
Economic madness (Score:5, Insightful)
The sum result is that the products bought will be more expensive than they would otherwise be.
What exactly is the benefit of this? American companies benefit by having more trade? but they're *paying* for that additional trade in their taxes, because the State has to pay more to buy the more expensive products.
--
Toby
Textile based products? (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't care, buy it cheap! (Score:3, Insightful)
So the government can spend an extra $8 per item times how ever many items. What does that mean? That means they raise taxes to pay for it. That is always good for our economy. Sure that money is going to US companies, but it is getting taxed right back.
If we buy foreign, we SAVE $8 per item. There are two ways to look at that. There is the civilian, and the governement. The civilian ways say they need less money, so the government can send the money elsewhere (medicare, medicade, SS, military, etc.). The government way says that they can keep the same budget and spend that $8 on other things, like heated toilet seats (joking).
Either way, it is more efficient to buy foreign if cheaper. Spend the extra on little American flags to give out to anyone who calls you anti-american for voting to allow them to waive the provision. Save the flag waiving for when it matters, not pointless rules to make you look good.
Re:I don't care, buy it cheap! (Score:5, Insightful)
Haven't you heard? The government has been cutting taxes for the last 5 years and sticking the difference in the national deficit. 'Cause, you know, that's free money that the taxpayers of America aren't responsible for.
Re:I don't care, buy it cheap! (Score:5, Insightful)
That $8.00 per item savings translated, in the past two decades, into complete shutdown of the textile and clothing manufacturing industry in the U.S. That meant millions of people thrown into the local Wal-Mart job, if they were lucky, and onto welfare if not. And Wal-Mart exists because it passes its healthcare on to the local state's tax-supported public services -- not to mention the number of Wal-Martish employees who are on food stamps because they aren't paid enough to eat.
That eight bucks cost us our electronics sector, our manufacturing sector, software, it goes on and on.
The "savings" is localized on someone's balance sheet. The cost incurred to generate that savings is measured in ruined careers, disappeared industry, impoverished people, and let's not forget, the almighty national security hole caused by our inability to make our own defense equipment.
The savings in moving our economy overseas goes into few pockets, but the costs come out of all our taxes. And the real costs never show up in the Economist or the cable news shows, because those are paid by the poor and almost-poor, the invisible majority that don't really count.
Those tax savings are lost on the back end.
Re:I don't care, buy it cheap! (Score:3, Insightful)
Arguments of wages and such aside (which is one of the major ways other countries undercut our price), there will always be jobs that are just cheaper to do locally (unless you want to fly in prebuilt skyscrapers from Asia). And so what if we don't make the same number of textiles we used to? Conusumers get better goods, cheaper; allowing them to better spend t
Re:I don't care, buy it cheap! (Score:5, Interesting)
I worked at walmart for a while after college -- The people there were just miserable, and I dont mean shitty people, actualy most of the people were pretty nice, it was just like being on the ship of the damned. The smarter among us knew where the ship was headed, the less aware didn't. And the undertext was always, dont tell anyone. Management was stupid, but they could spot the smart people -- who didn't generally last long. I got along by pretending to be not stupid, but not smart either. They want someone just smart enough to stock their shoes, electronics, etc, and not be trouble -- but stupid enough to believe their lies. They lied constantly, did rotten (and sometimes illegal) things, and just generally made your life shit. The guys who had been there for 15 years, were worn to the nub by life. I was originally thinking of trying to become the store manager or something -- I was *BY FAR* the most educated employee with a BS, but after a while my conscience started to bother me. I *literally* felt by working at this company I was selling out myself, the country, and my own interests.
I quit after a few months when they decided to make me permanant... my back was hurting so bad from the labor that I couldn't sleep more then 3 hours at once (i'd wake up with knotted muscles, have to stretch for 20 - 30 mins, then go back to sleep) And it wasn't like I could afford the walmart insurance, which IIRC was about 30% of your wage (7$ an hour).
The other thing that struck me (coming from a household that made over 200k a year) was how poor the people working there were. I remember one girl bragging abuot how well she was doing -- she had a dvd player and a ps2.
Re:I don't care, buy it cheap! (Score:5, Insightful)
Which makes her richer than 95% of the world's population. Poverty is relative; as long as there are any differences in wealth, there will be people near the bottom. But the bottom in the US and other developed nations is far higher than the rest of the world, and far higher than it was anywhere 100 years ago. You can thank capitalism for that.
Re:I don't care, buy it cheap! (Score:3, Insightful)
Unless of course you thought that even the poorest Americans could afford to rent an apartment and had some kind of job.
Re:I don't care, buy it cheap! (Score:3, Insightful)
It's a shortcoming of capitalism that those do most of the donkey work get the fewest rewards, and not a positive feature, as you seem to suggest.
Re:I don't care, buy it cheap! (Score:3, Interesting)
Buying $8 American means helping the defeceit, not having to pay $6 social secuity to the American who got layed off because of China. Buying $8 American means the government gets back a certain amount in Taxes from the American workers.
Yet another broken window fallacy, because you've now paid $8 for $2 worth of stuff, reducing your wealth by $6. You are effectively advocating charity for US businesses that can't compete in the global
Hilarious! (Score:4, Insightful)
And now some showoff congressman is demanding DHS 'buy American.' (Do we still make stuff here?)
What kind of hilarity can ensue? Let's see:
- corporations will move a few employees around to meet the claim of 'made in America'
- countries who make our products get pissed 'cause we're threatening their income- trade sanctions, sabre rattling, etc.
- exceptions will be made for certain countries with attendant political maneuvering. End result: almost every country will be on the exceptions list. Except the axis o' evil / 'terra' nations.
Oil (Score:5, Funny)
What about oxygen? (Score:3, Insightful)
Their car-pool is going to be awfully empty, after they get rid of the Mercedes, Ferraris, Audis, Jaguars,
What's a "component"? (Score:4, Insightful)
The whole idea sounds rather stupid and vague in these modern times where everything has multiple sources. You don't even go into the whole political thing of "buying American" to see how silly the whole thing is.
NIH (Score:5, Informative)
I work for a department of the NIH--the National Institute of Health. I have been closely associated with some large computer purchases, and I can tell you that, over a certain dollar amount, we must also source from US manufacturing plants.
The details of how this works aren't 100% clear to me--but I believe that major manufacturers have a manufacturing plant for just this purpose, although I don't know if they serve any other gov't institutes besides the NIH.
I can tell you that we can purchase Dell, Apple, and HP following the US sourcing rules. While it does indeed complicate the bidding process, it's not impossible. I would imagine that the DHS would tap the same resources; in fact, their use of these resources might drive down the prices for all gov't buyers who are currently constrained by this rule. The more the merrier.
The fact that you can't purchase "Made in the USA" computer goods at Best Buy really has no relation to the purchasing power of the US gov't.
As a taxpayer (Score:5, Insightful)
Since the government buys their equipment using money from the US taxpayers, it seems in the best interests of the taxpayers and the country to keep as much of that money in the country as possible. Consider the following:
The US government outsources everything to companies in other countries - everything from highway construction to phone support to the IRS. Making up a number for the tax rate, call it 40%, that people pay, including the federal taxes in gas, phone service, licensing, income taxes, etc. This means that every year 40% of the countries GDP goes to another country or countries. That reduces the overall "value" of our country by that much. At the other end, if we pay nothing to other countries for services or aid or anything, the "value" of the country remains the same.
Now, I understand that this isn't realistic economically, but it illustrates the point. As a government, isn't it better for their citizens if as much of their expenditures as possible remain in the country? Yes, it is possible that buying from an outside source is cheaper, (for the nation as a whole), than buying locally. (For example, many food crops won't grow in the US and to irrigate/climate control the fields to support those crops would cost more than buying them outright from somewhere else.) However, for a few percentage points difference in the price, I doubt it, since we have to consider income taxes that the country "gets back" by taxing the workers who produce it. (Assuming all other aspects are equal.)With that said, I think it would be better overall to embrace a true global economy, so if someone in India can do a job better/faster/cheaper then they can do it. However, since we don't have a world government, and we still have this annoying habit of killing each other over things like imaginary lines on a map, I don't see any real alternative to being somewhat protective of the country you happen to reside in, whether that is the US, the UK, China or India.
Re:As a taxpayer (Score:4, Insightful)
The "value" of a country is largely independent of how much of its own currency it sends elsewhere. If people have no interest in buying anything in a country or produced in that country, its value is zero. If the country sends a lot of its currency abroad, its currency will just get devalued accordingly.
The US is a bit special: because the US dollar has been used in the trade between other nations, it can't just get devalued arbitrarily. That has allowed the US to keep printing money and to keep producing goods uncompetitively with fewer consequences than other nations. But that won't work forever: people are switching to other currencies. You already see a little bit of a drop in the dollar as a consequence, but it still has a lot further to go; and its artificial stability right now may result in a sudden and catastrophic drop down the road.
Cell phone that's 50% American (Score:5, Interesting)
By value, it's over half American-made.
If 51% mass is the problem, bundle it with an American-made car battery and charging device.
You may think this is funny but crazy rules call for crazy workarounds.
Re:Cell phone that's 50% American (Score:3, Insightful)
American Cell Phone Company buys cell phone part pre-assembled from China for $20 and battery from Korea for $10, then does final assembly here and charges $61 wholesale to the gov't.
Actually, you are pretty close although you are looking at cell phone prices after rebates. More likely scenario: Halliburton buys a cell phone for $200 from nokia, sanyo, erickson, etc. Then they add a US manufactured Halliburton label and charge the govenment $500. Now it is 60% US made on a value added basis.
No flame intended, but it raises the question... (Score:4, Insightful)
Is there a real motive for such a decision or it's just a "Geee, we're 100% american!" sort of thing?
How does this differ from China... (Score:5, Insightful)
In this thread, we the +5's tend toward denouncing the US's choice to effectively do the same thing. Is there some method to the madness? I'm genuinely curious...
Well that narrows the list of authorized down to.. (Score:3, Funny)
Something I just have to rant about (Score:4, Interesting)
I was born in 1979. I still remember when items like televisions, VCRs, Microwaves and the like were luxury items. For people born earlier, especially in the depression, the idea that goods like these often are literally not worth the space it takes to store them. Many people don't understand that televisions and stereos are mass produced in countries like Taiwan that 20 years ago were third world countries, and that Japan is past us in technology, Taiwan is pulling even, and countries like Malaysia are waiting to catch up.
The micro and macro effects of these are causing big ripples in our economy. If the pricing of housing goes up, and the price of consumer goods stays the same, what does that do? If you own an independent electronics retailer, and you sell televisions and stereos at 100 dollars each with a 10 dollar profit, how many do you have to sell to afford a standard 300,000 family home?
And, if the US is running a 60 billion dollar a month trade deficit, what is it going to sell to make up for that? Heavy manufactring used to be our bread and butter, but we would have to export (for example), 600 million tons of steel a month to make up that deficit. Pretty much the only thing the US has a clear edge in manufactring these days is commercial aircraft. But the people who are making economic policy don't realize this just because it contradicts their experience when they were growing up.
Okay. I have had my say.
Bad bad signal (Score:3, Insightful)
I see a potential vicious circle in the build, with DHS attracting more and more xenophobe weirdos, through publicity around acts like this, and thus becoming more and more extreme in its views. This is not going to help world peace the least, such a nationalistic movement popping up in the heart of the last remaining super power. Pity.
Whining? (Score:3, Insightful)
How is this any different?
Re:bad idea. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:bad idea. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:bad idea. (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Our military won't be able to keep up with the technical advances of other countries because we no longer produce enough engineers and scientists. All the engineers will be overseas
2. Our national defense will depend on foriegn companies selling us equipment which they may choose not to do at some point in time.
Re:Department of Homeland Gestapo (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Department of Homeland Gestapo (Score:4, Funny)
I know how you feel.
Sincerely,
US Constitution
Re:for security, it is a must (Score:3, Insightful)
Agreed - I could come up with something that is 99% made in the US except for the chip that transmits keystrokes to North Korea. This is just an attempt to pass legislation that the WTO souldn't like by disguising it as security...
Re:Huh... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Strange - PCs, Dell should qualify (Score:3, Insightful)