Stolen US Military Equipment Being Sold On eBay 173
I Buy These From eBay points out a Washington Post story about how stolen military equipment has ended up on eBay and Craigslist. Undercover investigators reported being able to purchase defense-related items with "no questions asked." Let's hope the sellers don't get their hands on any retired rebellious robots. From the Post:
"Among the items purchased include two components from F-14 fighter jets, bought from separate buyers on eBay. The warplanes, now retired by the military, could easily be purchased and transferred to the Iranian military, which is seeking its components, the report said. Investigators couldn't determine where the sellers had obtained the F-14 parts. They also purchased from a Craigslist seller a used Nuclear Biological Chemical protective suit, other protective accessories as well as an unused chemical-biological canister, which contained the mask filter used to guard against warfare agents. The property was likely stolen from the Defense Department, the report said."
Why not buy a Gripen (Score:1)
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As for the fun happy stuff on eBay and Craigslist, this isn't the first time stolen military equipment was placed on eBay... I can't find the article right now, but it's been happening off and on for the p
Re:Why not buy a Gripen (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Why not buy a Gripen (Score:4, Funny)
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I think the underlying point of your message though is that Iran is more than capable of buying jets from other military hardware producing nations. The trick is finding one that wouldn't mind selling them the stuff. Maybe the French?
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Not that they're really in dire need of more. They're pretty well equipped as it is. [wikipedia.org]
Not smart (Score:5, Insightful)
This behavior is IMHO incredibly stupid. If you manage to steal such items, one would think that you also manage to sell them somewhere else than on Ebay.
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I think someone wasn't paying attention down at eBay, but the summary would imply these things were in fact bought.
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Also if Iran was smart they would have mothballed everything, and disassembled at least one plane. from there they could duplicate all the mechanical parts, and would only then have to figure out the electronics. Though I highly doubt that those planes are in flying condition anymore. Planes that old need to have every nut and bolt checked.
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If the Iranians are smart, they would have torn the planes down in the eighties and made replicas then. Somehow I doubt this is the case, however - they probably went for the lowest bidder as most militaries do when it comes down to something that isn't related to intercontinental bombers.
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Re:Not smart (Score:5, Insightful)
Beyond all those hurdles, you've got to consider the lubricants as well, screw that up and the parts don't work.
Screw up anything in the chain and nothing works.
There's a reason why countries like Iran or whatever aren't flying around in replica F-14's and F-15's. While they may have the dimensions to replicate a part, they don't have the huge amount of engineering required to make that part work, and work reliably.
The engineering know-how that goes into a sophisticated bit of military hardware spans most hardcore sciences spanning many decades of research, know how, genuine talent and knowledge. This cannot be reverse engineered or reproduced on a lathe.
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There's a reason why countries like Iran or whatever aren't flying around in replica F-14's and F-15's. While they may have the dimensions to replicate a part, they don't have the huge amount of engineering required to make that part work, and work reliably.
You're talking about a country which my President has told me has a nuclear weapons program. Something tells me if they're capable of getting nuclear engineers, they can figure out how to make a half-decent fighter jet if they really needed to.
Re:Not smart (Score:5, Interesting)
That's not the point. It's not about getting war tech, it's about studying current american war tech to find weaknesses.
Stuff like this surfacing on eBay is silly for many reasons. Frankly, I'm doubting the entire story, or at the very least the angle.
The WP article is full of inflamatory speculation, slapping together possibly unrelated information to make a troll. Every other paragraph has dubious points in it. What exactly are those "plane parts"? They're not saying. Who bought them? Not a peep, so then why finger Iran if there's no evidence? They say they couldn't figure out where the parts came from, yet they "must" be "stolen", because that's how they automatically define selling certain kinds of Army items.
Granted, any piece of knowledge about the US army may be useful for any foreign power. But if the US army doesn't want stuff to end up on eBay they should guard it more careful. Since they didn't, there's either major incompetence at play, or it wasn't such sensitive material after all.
Seriously, do you really think that truly useful information or material of this kind would be sold on eBay? When there are professional arms dealers and spies out there? Let's give those Hollywood movies a rest, shall we.
If I were to take this article at face value, I'd say it's an attempt at sticking it to the army for not taking better care of its stuff. While I'm all for that, it stops being funny once non sequitur allegations are made about certain foreign countries. Then it becomes a transparent attempt at instilling paranoia among the public. "Oh noes, Iran is buying our planes on eBay! How low have we sunk! We're doomed!" Please.
Re:Not smart (Score:5, Informative)
You are quite right!
The list of stuff isn't impressive. We should be impressed by a fucking used NBC suit? Literally millions of the things have been produced from the Cold War onward. They are not classified. The "used" (= charcoal no workee no more, washed multiple times so it doesn't stain your uniform black) suits are in every G.I.s NBC training bag and many surplus stores and are NOT illegal to possess!
Neither are uniforms, with the caveat that you must buy them or be issued them and not (no shit) steal them. Anybody who wants to can buy them (or nicer private brands) online at U.S. Cavalry, Brigade Quartermasters, etc. G.I.s often spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on aftermarket gear.
Wanna legal mask?
http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/msa-mcu2p.htm [approvedgasmasks.com]
Whole NBC ensembles?
http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/mask-kits.htm [approvedgasmasks.com]
I'm sure some illegal gear ends up on Ebay (SAPI plates, etc) but it would be nice to see WHICH "F-14" parts were there. Just because a National Stock Number crosses to an F-14 doesn't make it strategic material.
Wanna see everything that's for sale legally from Uncle Sugar? You can even bid online:
http://www.govliquidation.com/ [govliquidation.com]
I did 26 years (Comm/Nav. Engines,Crew Chief) in the USAF and am familiar with aircraft, parts, supply, and buying stuff outta surplus even before it was outsourced to GovLiquidation. The WaPo piece is IMO bullshit fearmongering and reflects their dislike for the military.
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They likely could, but it's still difficult and requires more than just some smart engineers. As has been pointed out, it's a manufacturing / design / maintenance chain that's complex and expensive. In addition, one or two nuclear weapons constitutes a "win" in this game. One or two reverse engineered F14's constitutes target practice for the Israeli Air
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Nuclear weapons were first developed in the 40's. As such it might be more reasonable to assume that if they have engineers capable of building a nuclear weapon - then they should be able to make a nice piston engine fighter.
Could you please explain why place any prop-driven plane has in a dogfight today?
One or two HE 20mm cannon rounds and anything like that is going to drop right out of the sky. And because it's basically standing still compared to any fighter jet, it has basically no chance to even score a hit. F-14s can launch missiles at something like eight independent targets; others can usually handle less but still multiple targets.
The only weapon really useful to an underdog nation is a nuke. Everything else is bu
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Do you seriously not know world history well enough to know that WW2 was the age of piston engined aircraft?
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You're talking about a country which my President has told me has a nuclear weapons program. Something tells me if they're capable of getting nuclear engineers, they can figure out how to make a half-decent fighter jet if they really needed to.
A basic nuclear device is cutting-edge 1940s technology. They haven't been really high-tech since television has been in color. That they're not widely available is a testament to the economies of scale necessary to produce the nuclear material, and (much, much less so) the efforts on the part of countries that already have them to discourage other countries from acquiring them. (And also the disinterest of many countries who would be capable of producing them, if they really wanted to; a list that incl
Why does Iran want F-14 parts? Iran threat? No. (Score:5, Informative)
Quote from the Slashdot story: "The warplanes, now retired by the military, could easily be purchased and transferred to the Iranian military, which is seeking its components, the report said."
Why does Iran want F-14 parts? I'm guessing that is because the war industry in the U.S. sold the Iranian government F-14s, with the permission and the aid of the U.S. government. Presumably that happened when the Shah was in control. The Shah was a U.S. government puppet, installed in 1953 after the U.S. government destroyed the administration of the democratically elected President Mohammed Mossadegh" [wikipedia.org]. That's right, those who control the U.S. government were against democracy, for violence, for interference in the operation of other countries, and they put profit above all other issues.
Also, Iran is not the threat that is being presented to U.S. citizens. Those who control the U.S. government are trying to demonize Iran the way they demonized Iraq. They want a war, and the entire reason they want a war with Iran is the same as the reason they wanted war with Iraq: to make more money. Those who control the U.S. government have a sickness about money. They will do anything to get more money, even lie and kill other people.
At the beginning of the first U.S. government-Iraq war, U.S. weapons companies were still delivering weapons to Iraq, under a long-term contract. Those who control the U.S. government and weapons companies want war, continous war.
The U.S. government is the biggest promoter of violence in the world. Don't say "we" when talking about war. There is no "we", unless you are part of the group that makes the profits, while stealing from U.S. taxpayers.
If you love your wife, and she is having a difficult time, you don't turn your back on her. You get involved and try to help. It's the same with your country. If you love the U.S. like I do, you will help stop the violence.
Re:Why does Iran want F-14 parts? Iran threat? No. (Score:5, Interesting)
"The plot, known as Operation Ajax, centered around convincing Iran's monarch to use his constitutional authority to dismiss Mossadegh from office"
Ah yeas, spreading stories about Mossadeq and lobbying the constitutional leader of the country to act within his powers to remove a man contrary to our interests, yes, that's the same as arming revolutionaries to storm the presidential mansion! In that case, anyone who's ever written a letter asking congress to impeach Bush, they are also attempting a "coup".
Really, if you want an example of US malfeasance, go look at that asshole Kissinger with regard to Chile and Pinochet. Iran just ain't fuckin' it, no matter how much airhead intellectual leftist tell each other it was.
NOT an honest account. See these details: (Score:2)
1) The CIA, a secret organization, acted in a hidden way to interfere with the political operation of a sovereign nation.
2) The hidden, sneaky U.S. government action had ONE purpose: To help private groups, oil companies, make more profit.
3) The Iranians elected President Mossadegh in a democratic manner, believing they had some control over the political future of their country. The U.S. government's secret departments destr
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Shah Pahlavi was the last in a line of Iranian kings that goes back hundreds, and arguably thousands of years.
Pahlavi's claim to the Iranian throne was always suspect. His father overthrew the previous Shah and he himself was appointed by the West to replace his father. Monarchs, who are dictators, have no valid mandate to rule anyone. Monarchies are inherently tyrannical.
The Shah, as head of the constitutional monarchy removed Mossadeq from his position as head of parliament after he 1) demanded full control of the military, 2) moved to abolish anonymity in popular voting, and 3) moved to dissolve parliament, a power reserved for the Shah. It was, in fact, Mossadeq who was trying to install himself as dictator.
Except that the Shah was also a dictator who was moving to overthrow him.
The real issue was the fact that parliament, and Mossadeq in particular, nationalized the British oil company (now BP) that owned the Iranian oil industry. The population o
They view their threats as efforts to defend Iran. (Score:2)
It helps understanding of the situation that officials of the U.S. government have publicly discussed bombing Iran. They view their threats as efforts to defend themselves.
Quote from a March 5, 2007 New Yorker article, The Redirection [newyorker.com]:
"Still, the Pentagon is continuing intensive planni
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Try doing high precision manufacturing with finicky Titanium, just to name one example.
I personally know a guy who lives in Santa Cruz county who does this in his garage. He used to make parts for NASA. Last I talked to him he was working on a project to make and install titanium valves and seats in his harley sportster so that it might be reliable.
These people are out there in the world. Give them the right motivation, and they'll make your parts.
Depending on the complexity of the part, it might be easiest just to let the computer do the machining, too. You can get a used bridgeport 2.5d
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Re:Not smart (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Not smart (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.govliquidation.com/list/c7007/lna/1.html [govliquidation.com]
Get just about any aircraft parts directly from the government. Everything from engines to rotary blades for helicopters to complete aircraft shells. Nothing new here...
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FUD (Score:5, Funny)
0 items found for: stolen military equipment
How do they expect us to believe an article if we can't verify the sources
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When I served in the army here in sweden it was more or less custamory to "lose" some stuff and keep it for yourself. Normally this was t-shirts or similar stuff but it was still pretty normal.
Then I lost stuff (which you do) you couldn't help to feel guilty about it as if you would have stolen it because it was that common, and I can safetly say that the only thing I "stole" was a few empty
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linky [gizmodo.com]
Re:Not smart (Score:5, Informative)
People like to use the US's phenomenal military budget as evidence of the country's militarism, but in my admittedly limited experience, it has more to do with massive lack of accountability on an institution-wide scale. Anybody I have ever spoken to who has been in military logistics for a long period of time can tell you about the time he watched a million dollars get wasted in a day.
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I guess military meals just don't hold the same novelty value with those who are experienced with them.
Re:Not smart - obviously??? (Score:5, Informative)
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http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/pentagon_spending_900000_to_destroy_f_14_tomcats/ [sayanythingblog.com]
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we sold Iran their F-14's too
what's the point?
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Buying an F-14 airframe has been something thats been possible for years. You will however, not find an air ready F-14. They get stripped of many things, like avionics and turbines.
Without the avionics, the F-14 won't fly. You can hack together a lot of things to make it somewhat flight ready, hell you may be able to even get it in the air if worked hard enough. But what you put in the air, would in no way be a fighter jet other th
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Youre probably thinking of Richard D. James of Aphex Twin. He doesnt own a proper tank. Its a Daimler Ferret Mark 3 armored scout car, which looks like a mini tank. He also bought a working russian submarine recently for 40,000 pounds.
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not exactly accurate... (Score:2)
Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service is the DoD agency that gets rid of damaged and excess military equipment. They sell all kindsa stuff to the general public. If you want to buy a whole pallet of old computers or uniforms or something they're the place to go.
That said, they also used to sell F-14 parts that had been through or didn't require demilitarization to the general public - but DRMS no longer sells F-14 par
Should have suspected something....... (Score:5, Funny)
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"One pice at a time so it didn't cost him a dime"
He could have easily stuck the parts in his big lunch box. Johny Cache claims in to gotten a free car out GM that way in one of his songs...
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I wonder (Score:2)
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for repair parts to repair others or decommissioned and the serials numbers not deleted, or sitting in a bunker somewhere and the transfer paper work lost as well as thew more likely physically stolen
And this is on the Internet.... (Score:1)
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Fear mongering? (Score:5, Insightful)
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If you treat everyone like they're out to get you, in the end many of them will want to...
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I think a more appropriate request would be "stop doing things that make everyone want to get you".
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The F14 is a 30+ year old EOL aircraft. It's too bad there are so many fear-mongers out there because nobody will be able to keep a few birds flying for air shows and such. After WW2 & Korea you could buy excess 2 1/2 ton trucks, flack jackets, guns, & prop planes by the dozen. Even retired Howitzers and Shermans made their way parked in front of many VFW posts. Army Surplus
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You are
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It is fear mongering. If the Iranian government can get machinery to refine nuclear materials, then why not an plane. And what are they going to do with one plane, other than use it create other planes, in which case they need a whole plane to begi
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Stolen parts (Score:5, Funny)
Nothing new here (Score:4, Informative)
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More fearmongering? (Score:5, Informative)
They got the F-14 from there Pepsi points but they (Score:2)
Fines involved (Score:5, Insightful)
Sell stolen US F-14 parts for profit to anyone, so that you can buy some crack? Misdemeanor.
It seems clear that there is a problem.... (Score:2)
Certainly this is more serious than any supposed terrorist country or terrorist group buying such property.
Play with matches and you will burn yourself.
What a crock of shit (Score:5, Insightful)
Ok, probably the F-14 parts, but being ex-forces I myself have about 3 NBC suits and a box full of respirator canisters, amongst god knows what else, from clothes to tins, helmets, gortex. It's all just surplus you pick up during your time in. Half of it you can buy and any army surplus store/warehouse anyway.
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NBC Suit loss is common (Score:2, Informative)
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wish I had a dollar for every M17 mask turned in for a lost M17A2
Hah! Been there! Another good one is helmets. When my unit deployed to Afghanistan, some of us had old PASGT helmets issued due to inventory shortages on the ACH. Amusingly, despite enough ACHs being issued in theater to replace nearly all the PASGTs, when it came time to turn equipment back in, a surprising number turned in PASGT helmets. One particularly humorous one was even a rare early "Mk I" PASGT, 1.5x as thick and heavy as the "full production" version that saw widespread issue. It was probably wor
Don't know about the US army but... (Score:5, Interesting)
Turned out, the bordercontrol had arrested some guys who'd stolen some vehicles. Officially they weren't gone as they weren't reported missing.
Same with selling overstock; Every month a train came by bringing soldiers' cigarettes. They were picked up from the town and brought to base. At a certain point the soldier ordered to pick them up reported the shipment being picked up by "unknown" individuals. (so some Germans have been imposing as an army unit to pick up the shipment cigarettes). Since then my grandfather was put in charge for a new order, with the order to order 20% extra "just in case".
Instead of piling up the 20%, they devised a plan to sell it consistently through an external contractor and the profits where split. Until bordercontrol noticed an unusual high amount of soldiers going home for the weekend and they've searched some vehicles.
This is all post-WW erra with a bloathed army with paper reporting, but still. I can imagine there are still people trying to make a profit like this or the same logistic problems.
Oh yea, my grandfather went on trail for that and got away clean because they had to sign a statement they couldn't sell "their own" rations. He stated he didn't, he had sold overstock. After that he was put in charge of all logistics instead of his own regiment and the statement was adjusted.
Feedback (Score:5, Funny)
don't let the truth spoil a good story (Score:4, Insightful)
It mentions a couple of "components" from F14's - what? Nut and bolts or complete avionics - there's a huge difference. I would expect that if it had been anything significant, they wouldn't named them - so my money is on a few small pieces of easily machined metal.
The article then makes the subtle leap from talking about buying these F14 spares to say "The warplanes, now retired by the military, could easily be purchased and transferred to the Iranian military, which is seeking its".
Pardon me, but nowhere are they claiming to have actually *bought* the planes. They just seem to be sowing FUD in the readers mind.
It's a pity these guys couldn't find any journalistic integrity for sale on eBay - or maybe that's where theirs went.
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I do not remember seeing any F-14 parts (Score:4, Insightful)
Its not all stolen... (Score:4, Informative)
He got it from the Olympia Air Museum. Prior to that it was PURCHASED from McChord AFB in Tacoma after being struck off the register. It was used for training battle damage repair.
Aircraft parts from wrecked, scraped airframes often legitimately come up for sale on Ebay, IMO this report / article is just a way to promote an agenda. Congress are probably planning some new bill defining everyone who possesses ex-military equipment a terrorist. I guess I'm a cynic.
Stockpiling Ammo and Guns (Score:2)
I wouldn't be surprised that high explosives and such are also stolen. I've gone to military bases before and you seriously don't want to mess with the military police. I don't even want to think what would happen - or who would go after you - if you stole F-14 parts or chem-
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Its been long known that some soldiers, etc. have been keeping guns and ammo for themselves including rifles and machine guns.
Some? I shouldn't say all, and I'm not military my self, but from my understanding soldiers who want to bring ammo home is the sort of thing that might be encouraged as it gives them a chance to enjoy target practice during their off hours. I would think that this is the sort of thing that should be encouraged to a degree.
High explosives? Grenades? That's there I would draw the line.
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I'm not military my self, but from my understanding soldiers who want to bring ammo home is the sort of thing that might be encouraged as it gives them a chance to enjoy target practice during their off hours. I would think that this is the sort of thing that should be encouraged to a degree.
Yeah, you've obviously never been in the US military. When you leave the firing range or come out of a combat zone, they just about make you turn out your pockets to make sure you don't have any stray ammo that you might shoot someone with. Back when I was with the 7th Light Infantry, they not only wouldn't let us have bayonets in garrison (might stab each other), but they took away our E-tools (shovels) because a couple infantry guys got in a shovel fight!
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Yeah, you've obviously never been in the US military. When you leave the firing range or come out of a combat zone, they just about make you turn out your pockets to make sure you don't have any stray ammo that you might shoot someone with.
Seriously I would like to know when the US changed their attitude on ammo. I'm not military but I know that I have ammo that was fetched from the shotting range some decades back, and have spent time with military types who seem to have endless supplies of ammo that they pretty much nicked from uncle sam.
While I never presumed it was official policy to give solders free ammo... there seemed to be much of it floating about, something I didn't
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"Likely stolen" (Score:4, Interesting)
I saw an documentary on the war in Iraq. One segment focused on a particular base where various units would be stationed temporarily before being moved on to somewhere else. Any material or equipment that they didn't want to take with them at the end of their stay just got dumped because they didn't want to do the paperwork to return it to the quartermaster. It all just ended up being a big pile of junk in the middle of the desert, and there are apparently dozens of these across Iraq. You expect me to believe that no one just picks that stuff up takes it home?
If the Defense Department wants to stop this stuff being sold online, they should stop misplacing it in the first place. They have no one but themselves to blame.
"could be" is news now? (Score:3, Insightful)
Alarmist crap (Score:3, Insightful)
military surplus (Score:5, Interesting)
If you count foreign military surplus, all of my firearms are military surplus, including Mosin-Nagant rifles, a Nagant revolver, a Romanian AK-47, and Sig Sauer and Tokarev pistols.
There's a good story about a rich guy who bought a MiG-23 from Poland (I think) and had it imported. It would have been totally legal except for one problem: when the aircraft was pulled off the flightline, it wasn't disarmed. In the shipping crate, were armed air-to-air missiles, the Russian equivalent of a Sidewinders, and in the nose section the gun was still loaded and armed. US Customs took exception to this and confiscated the aircraft. Shortly thereafter it was given to the Air Force and is now on display at Wright Patterson AFB.
So, bottom line, is there are legal ways to own all kinds of military equipment.
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Same here. Amongst my collection of items gotten through legitimate surplus channels (DMRO, Govt Auctions, or auctions from government suppliers), I've got a rather healthy collection of geiger counters (Texas Department of Health surplus), kevlar vests, first aid kits in nice pelican cases, helmets, gas masks, tools (including a nice titanium crowbar),
No problem (Score:5, Funny)
Build your own (Score:2)
a) American front line aircraft have substantially better avionics than the F-14s sold to the Shah in the 1970's.
b) if the Iranians did have a spare parts problem for their aircraft, the advance of computers, avionics, CNC lathes etc would make it substantially easier to fabricate spare parts. The only problem, and I do accept it is a big one, would be getting any alloy composition right, but again I'm willing to bet chemical analysis is up to the job nowadays.
Iran in any case got a w