Dr. Dobb's 2012 Salary Survey 164
CowboyRobot writes "It's that time of year again, and Dr. Dobb's has posted the results of their survey of salaries of 3,500 developers and managers. 'While many salaries are flat, they are increasing overall, except for some heavily disfavored niches.'"
Unit? (Score:5, Interesting)
Call me stupid, but I don't get it. Software developers earn $90... per what?
Re:Unit? (Score:4, Funny)
Per anum.
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you misspelt anus
Per hole
Re:Unit? (Score:5, Insightful)
It should say software developers "are paid." Whether they actually "earn" it . . . is an entirely different matter.
Re:Unit? (Score:5, Interesting)
I imagine it's in thousands of dollars per year as it makes sense.
[John]
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Ya it seems like it's in thousands. Per hour figures would be crazy high. It would be pretty rare for an under 25 starting developer to be making 140k a year.
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That's the first thing I noticed as well. The article says per year. So $90 per year comes out to... 4 cents an hour.
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Not at a typical 60+ hour work week.
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Call me stupid, but I don't get it. Software developers earn $90... per what?
You should see what overweight balding right wing pundits get paid.
Annoying slide show looking for hits (Score:5, Informative)
The results are spread on a gazillion ad-littered pages whose content are shorter than this text field. Even the print page has ads on it and only includes the current page you're viewing. How do I mod article -1?
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posting as AC since I don't feel like logging in...
I'll wager a decent guess that it has more to do with the ad dollars.
You see, a website gets paid on the "page views" of ads, so it makes tons of sense from their (the website developers & publishers) perspective to do galleries instead of articles. An honest article page would be just 1 page. Instead, they break down the article's paragraphs into separate page views and put them into these ad-riddled galleries, thus generating 5...10...15+ times the pa
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What's the fascination with slideshows anyways? Who pushes for those and how do they push for those?
Slide Show Dobb.
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They're for aliterates and illiterates, but the ones pushing for them are the people running the sites geting all the ad revenue.
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Yea, AdBlocker popped up a full menu of external links and added a bunch more when I permitted the Dr Dobb's site.
I used to read Dr. Dobb's magazine way back in the day, "Running Light Without Overbyte". They're certainly not "Running Light" any more.
[John]
Re:Annoying slide show looking for hits (Score:5, Funny)
The results are spread on a gazillion ad-littered pages whose content are shorter than this text field. Even the print page has ads on it and only includes the current page you're viewing. How do I mod article -1?
Clearly their webdeveloper discovered they were at the bottom end of the scale ...
Or should be.
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How do I mod article -1?
By disabling advertising on /. until they have to fire an editor to stay afloat.
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How do I mod article -1?
You just did, thank you for saving me from yet another useless slide show. An even better way to downmod an article is in the firehose before it gets posted.
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Uh... This is slasgdot.
Underemployed? (Score:1)
I wonder if they bothered to include everyone what the salary breakdown would look like.
It's sad (Score:5, Interesting)
Dr. Dobb's Journal (DDJ) was a monthly journal published in the United States by CMP Technology. It covered topics aimed at computer programmers. DDJ was the first regular periodical focused on microcomputer software, rather than hardware. It later became a monthly section within the periodical InformationWeek called Dr. Dobb's Report and is now a news website published by United Business Media
Dr. Dobb's Journal of Tiny BASIC Calisthenics & Orthodontia
Running Light Without Overbyte
How sad is it that such a great resource for us programmers way back in the day is now just a news aggregator. :(
[John]
Is that the so called "american dream"? (Score:5, Interesting)
Those salaries are the same (if not lower) as here in Munich (DE).
And we don't have to pay for a private health insurance or a decent pension.
Keep your "dream" and "freedom" guys, I thought your salaries were far higher.
Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (Score:5, Insightful)
Germany is the nation with the highest wages in Europe, maybe in the world. You should not be surprised. I would gladly change my finnish pay for $100k a year.
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UK has the same range in terms of wages in tech - depends on the Euro/Sterling exchange rate.
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Germany is the nation with the highest wages in Europe, maybe in the world.
Actually Switzerland probably has the highest wages in Europe. If you meant European Union, then Luxembourg is probably top.
You should not be surprised. I would gladly change my finnish pay for $100k a year.
Finnish average salary is only about 10% lower than Germany. Perhaps you are being underpaid? You could always relocate to Germany...
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To nitpick Germany is more number #6 in Europe when it comes to average gross monthly salary [wikipedia.org]. Switzerland, Norway and Denmark thrones the list.
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Cost is alot more than living in the USA, and normal german pay can be lower. Then you are stuck with taxes, as a USA citizen you have to file for taxes no matter where you earned them, and Germany now wants a cut. However tax deals between the countries can help you alot in that matter and some companies pay the USA taxes that you would owe.
You will want to travel, after all that is why
Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (Score:4, Insightful)
The tradeoff is that you have better insurance. Lose your job? Still have healthcare. Vacation? Guaranteed more than you'll ever get in the US, and if you don't take it your boss will make you. In the US if you take all your vacation you can be looking at finding a new job with a lot of employers.
If you're relatively low skill (waiter waitress type job) you can get paid a lot more in europe than the US. The downside is that paying for restaurants can be a lot more expensive than the US.
On average the US is better off (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_per_capita_personal_income) in terms of disposable income. But a lot of that wealth is concentrated towards people who are doing well. If you can be in the top 1% it's better to be an american than a german. if you're in the bottom 20 or 30%, german rather than american. Everyone in between those points is more of a lifestyle choice. Some people would prefer 5 weeks vacation and are happy taking trains to travel, some people prefer the freedom of their own car and working more.
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mr dickhead,
I suggest you visit germany. they're probably the least fucked up nation in the world. plenty of cool old stuff too, even in the places that got totaled in ww2.
and beer & etc is cheap as.. well, water.
as for political chaos, wtf? comparing usa vs. germany in political chaos? who's leader is going around ordering assassinations again? germany is so stable they've managed to keep europes mexicos out of trouble for past 30 years!
Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (Score:5, Interesting)
The cost of living in Munich is definitely lower than in San Francisco or San Jose, since we're talking about IT jobs. I don't know what you mean with "social isolation".
Of course taxes are higher, and I'm proud of that. If I lose my job, I don't lose healthcare for my family, and I'll have a decent unemployment benefit. If I cannot afford a private pension, I still have a generous and sustainable public pension, and my kids will be able to go to college FOR FREE, as I did. In big companies workers can elect half of the Board of Directors, so that the company is managed in the interest of BOTH shareholders AND employees. And companies cannot lay off people without a just cause.
My parents are former factory workers (you know, those that are kindly called "losers" in your country), if I was born in the USA I could have never afforded to pay for college, and I would be a factory worker too.
If that's what you call "new world", well, keep it.
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I have co-workers over in Germany; the biggest thing I complain about is their benefit of 6 weeks of vacation time a year. Seems like every other week they're able to call off... I'm somewhat jealous, told them I'll move over any time!
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You tell me which one's better- yes yours works, but it doesn't even compare. So don't compare them. People always bring up your point when the free things other countries provide are mentioned, an
Studying doesn't make you more intelligent (Score:3)
You're an idiot for comparing "Feasible" with "Free", he's saying- It's a birth right, you're saying if you work yourself to death doing odd work during the years of your life you're supposed to spend studying to become more intelligent and an eventual net gain to your family and country you might just get one.
Studying doesn't make you more intelligent, it makes you more educated. This is fundamental attribution error often seen in highly educated people who like to believe themselves more intelligent for it.
You tell me which one's better- yes yours works, but it doesn't even compare. So don't compare them. People always bring up your point when the free things other countries provide are mentioned, and it's just stupid.
I agree that education up to a certain level should be considered a birthright, but you quickly hit a point of diminishing returns when you attempt to educate everyone to the same level. Some people are in fact not educable -- this is the major legitimate complaint about the "No Child Left Behind" policies
You're making another error (Score:2)
Benefiting the citizenry is not the same thing as benefiting society, and the point of services provided by society needs to be to benefit the society, not the individual. If it benefits the citizenry as well, that's a nice side effect, but it should not be the primary underlying goal.
Setting the price point at or lower than the necessary price point to achieve the societal benefit is all that's necessary. In the case of higher education, this is achievable at a non-zero price point. And yes, this means
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I'd be interested to hear the stories from people who did make it over there, any good ones?
Been here in Germany 5 years now. Loving it. The take-home pay is lower due to higher taxes, but that's MORE than offset by the social benefits that my tax money buys. No toll roads anywhere; excellent public transport at amazingly low prices; 10 euro per quarter is the most I'll ever pay for medical attention (regardless of what needs done)...
There are things I don't like about living here, but quality of life in general is very high.
It looks like Canada is #2, Australia #3 as far as IT worker living standard goes.
I can't speak for Canada, but in Sydney, Australia where I spent 6 yea
Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (Score:5, Interesting)
The tone you're setting is wrong, because it implies that all white people are racist and somehow dedicate every waking moment to ruining and isolating non-white people. In reality most of the wide array of cultures and ethnic groups in America tend to bulk together out of comfort and stability by choice, not because they are rounded up and placed in isolation camps. People want to spend time typically with other people that are like them which includes taste in art, skill set, and (tada) ethnic origin. You see this all over the world and it establishes unique and interesting subcultures.
On the note of racism though which is always applied to white people oddly, I'd like to point out that non-whites are equally racist and (unlike white people) are often more willing to admit it because there is no focus on shaming them for it. One example is the shooting in Florida where the man is half hispanic and half white. The man claims himself to be hispanic as his primary race, but the minute people started saying he was racist they started calling him white or "half white". They completely stripped him of his willfully claimed ethnicity, mostly because saying a white man hates black people will sell better than a hispanic hates black people.
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People want to spend time typically with other people that are like them which includes taste in art, skill set, and (tada) ethnic origin.
Ethnic, maybe, racial no, not really. You don't see tall people hanging together and short people hanging in a different group; or blue eyed people hanging together and green-eyed people in a different group.
The only reason people in the USA tend to hang out with others of the same racial ethnicity is leftovers of the horrible segregation that ruled the land a mere 40 ye
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Yes, really. Cultural constructs are passed from generation to generation, the same way you speak English even though you were not even alive when the English settled in Virgina in 1607.
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Correct, which is why I started by saying "[culturally] ethnic, maybe". For example, people who like kimchi and the latest South Korean soap opera are likely to hang together and talk about it, be it physically or in a blog in cyberspace. And no, you don't have to be born in Korea to count yourself among that group, as many Japanese fans of Bae Yong Joon and kimchi can attest.
On the other hand we have racially imposed divisions and classifications, such as the American coinage of Latina, which creates a new
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On the other hand, there are societal pressures which often encourage you to associate with people who appear to be like you (physically) even if you aren't like them culturally. I run into this frequently as I am an expat in Japan. I'm married to a Japanese woman and speak Japanese. I'm much more comfortable with my wife's family and with my Japanese friends than I am with the expat community. But that community (which exists by choice) is often critical of people who choose to leave it.
It's hard to ex
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Anyway, in my experience, not all of the segregation is imposed.
Oh I agree. Once segregation has become the cultural norm it comes from all sides, including the segregated.
In terms of your situation, you need to try to tease apart what the expats are saying. If it is all segregationist rumbles pay no heed and carry on. Or perhaps what they are saying is that you are trying too hard to integrate. Your true Japanese friends will accept you for who you are, and do not mind the differences. Do not change just f
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Please take some time and travel the south. Racisim is alive and well. There is segregation enforced by fear in some states in the south.
Places like NYC and Chicago are very different.
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I always find it interesting when I meet white people in Japan who think that Japan is really racist. From my perspective it's about the same as most countries. The only real difference is that white people from western countries have often never experienced being a visible minority before. It can be shocking. The really sad part about it is that these people often simply return home without realizing their privilege of being in a majority.
People are people and everyone has a bias, whether or not it is
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How about you factor taxes in and then we talk :-) How much taxes do you pey on 100+/year after all deduction? Now take a look at effective/actual tax rate in US in this category.
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Tax revenue as a percent of GDP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP
Germany 40%, US 27.
Government spending as a percent of GDP (includes previous chart sort of)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending
Germany 43. US 39.
Tax rates in the current economic climate don't mean much. To balance all the US governments (and sub entities) books you'd need to collect revenue at the same rate as the germans, which would increase taxes by 44%. The Germans to cover a
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Sorry, I guess I didn't draw the connections well.
For the services you get you need to pay whatever percent in tax. On average you pay some current percent in tax (regardless of occupation). Since IT is not a particularly exceptional position the overall average data more or less applies. Expect to be taxed at roughly the rate given.
The deficits only come into play because you can't just compare tax rates. The current US effective tax rate of 27% is way off from it's outlays, so it's obviously anomalou
Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (Score:5, Funny)
And we don't have to pay for a private health insurance or a decent pension.
It's magically free... nobody pays for it! Whee!
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I just want to add that that tax maximum leaves out all the other taxes that we pay. State, local, Social Security, Medicare, property (varies by location), and a uncountable other taxes and "fees". So, the comparisons are often not apples to apples, not to mention uneven due to cost of living differences.
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I have worked for 7 companies in my life, zero of which have paid Pension benefits. Some of them have paid matching 401k, but that pales in comparison with an actual pension offering.
Health Insurance is always a nice "offering" that the companies say is a benefit, but when you look at the truth of it, you are the
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you are the one who pays for the benefit,
Not sure what you mean by that; it's part of the total package. My point was that in Germany you pay for it out of base salary (as taxes), in the US you pay for it as reduced base salary but added insurance coverage.
that pales in comparison with an actual pension offering
I've had both and will take matching 401k every time. Pension involves vesting, which often means that if you resign or are laid off you lose the pension. 401k is yours. Plus you'll do better with an IRA or 401k in the long run (unless you have a extremely generous retirement plan like the ones
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I would tend to agree, but I wish they would match the same amount as they put towards a pension. The problem with pension is that later down the road, when you
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How about taxes? And yeah, the US does actually have free speech, not crazy censorship that Germany has.
The Producers not being allowed to use the Nazi symbol is insanity.
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I'm not "ignorant of the cost", the difference is that costs are SHARED among everybody. That's what the welfare system is for. What about the healthcare for the unemployed in the US? Do they stand in line like beggars in front of some charity organization?
And look at the yield of German Bunds, it's lower than the yield of US Treasuries. So what's the house of cards that's collapsing?
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No, they go to the hospital, just as they have done since long before the whole Universal Healthcare proposition.
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And then any assets they do have are taken as they are forced into bankruptcy, and then the government is left footing the bill. Because the government is insuring these visits there is a layer of socialized medicine happening, except that the hospitals and governments then fight over how much money should be paid and so on.
The thing is, if you're poor in the US, or old, you get medicare or medicaid which are both, on the scale of things decent enough. It's the people who are not quite poor and not quite
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Where in Munich do you earn 100000$ as a software developer?
If you mean that sounds a little LOW, I'd agree with you. I make a bit more than that living in Hannover.
Munich being significantly more expensive than Hannover, I'd want significantly more pay.
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Are you a regular developer, senior developer or management level?
Mid-to-high level. My title is "Software Development Supervisor". Basically 75% actual development and related tasks, 15% developer support (i.e. "Hey, YttriumOxide, why doesn't this code I wrote work?" from a hundred or so third parties) and 10% management of a small team of other people doing roughly the same thing.
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I'm entry to senior level (3 years university work, 1 year company work) making ~ 55000 €. Would you consider that as good?
Hmmm... I'd consider it "about right" I guess. You're still young after all, so that's probably around the figure I'd expect if you were to join my group for example. In another five years time, I'd hope that'd be significantly higher though (even if you're doing the exact same work).
I disagree with 'ageism' (Score:5, Insightful)
I disagree with the author's take on 'ageism' - I bet that if skill sets were taken into account, the apparent ageism would disappear.
There are two kinds of 'old fart' in this biz - ones that doggedly refuse to learn new skills, and those that actively seek out and embrace new skills but have the hindsight and experience to see them in their proper place among the existing tried-and-true solutions. Too often I see young, inexperienced developers grab on to the latest thing, declaring it the be-all and end-all of programming. I've seen it a million times - their fervor eventually gets tempered by seeing that their shiny new toy isn't perfect and has more rough edges that advertised. I went thru it in my 20's, as did everyone else, I suspect. I'm old enough now to have seen the "Thin Client! No, Thick client! No, Thin Client!" pendulum swing a few times. :-( (For those of you too young, that would be "thin=Mainframe+terminal, thick=Borland Delphi, thin=web app, thick=phone app).
The consulting company I work for respects the type II old fart and values their experience. Apparently our clients do as well, since we're in high demand.
Fellow old fart here. (Score:5, Interesting)
Speaking as a fellow old fart, I remember being in a constant state of panic when ever a new technology came out because it meant that if I didn't somehow get on the job experience with the technology, I would be left in the dust (unemployed). And back in the 90s, if you didn't learn something new and switch jobs, you were considered unwilling to learn new things and grow - now you're considered a "job hopper".
And back in the early 90s, employers wanted the "shiny new toys" because they thought they could throw out the very expensive mainframes and go all client server - and many did.
Anyway, you have to chase all the new tech. It is a must in this industry. I wish I did it more!
Here's an example: when the whole iOS/iPhone thing was first kicked off by Apple, I poo-pooed it. "Here we go again. Another handheld failure!" The folks who latched on at the beginning - jumping on that shiny new toy - go their first and built up the experience and some of very profitable businesses now.
This time, my experience led me astray and I missed out on getting a big slice of the pie - there are just crumbs left.
Then again, I bet there are some RIM developers that are shaking their heads now and thinking, "Wait and see."
This industry is so volatile and capricious that it's impossible to know what's going to be worth while and what isn't. I mean back in the 90s, I used to laugh at the Mac developers for chasing Windmills. I used to laugh at mainframer COBOL guys but there's quite a few still making a living - a nice one at that.
I thought I was hot shit for being a UNix/client server/C/C++ programmer - then Java came.
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Re:Fellow old fart here. (Score:4, Insightful)
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This industry is so volatile and capricious that it's impossible to know what's going to be worth while and what isn't
True. But there are some crazy old guys who don't believe in using the interent, and that building your website to support mobile is a waste.
You can viably be and older person in management or a technical area and do fine. What you can't do is decide that all this 'innovation' is really bad for the industry and bury your head in the sand. Being wrong about the next big thing is different than believing that there should be no next big thing. Being in academia we have a lot of the guys who believe in usi
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But there are some crazy old guys who don't believe in using the interent, and that building your website to support mobile is a waste.
Funny you should say that. I see the demand for mobile-enabled web sites diminishing in the face of everyone wanting having to have "an app for that" (both retailers and customers, oddly). Better control of the user experience, better customer tracking, etc. You'd think the customers would prefer the anonymity and familiarity of a web site, but they apparently value other fe
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I thought I was hot shit for being a UNix/client server/C/C++ programmer - then Java came.
Fuck. When did I get old? That's what I do. And I still don't know Java; I learned Python instead. And so I'm unemployed. Meh.
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I'm old enough now to have seen the "Thin Client! No, Thick client! No, Thin Client!" pendulum swing a few times. :-( (For those of you too young, that would be "thin=Mainframe+terminal, thick=Borland Delphi, thin=web app, thick=phone app).
and now cloud.
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No, I'm saying that given my observations over several decades of work and my own experience, ageism is not as rampant as was depicted in the article and is more often than not a situation that individual workers create for themselves by refusing to learn new things. Reread my post - if skill sets were included in the criteria, ageism would disappear into the noise.
Doe it exist? Certainly. Is it inevitable? No.
Wealth Divide (Score:2)
So staff jobs have been losing pay while managers have been gaining. Why can't we stop this trend? It's not as if managers have increased in performance over 2 years while staff workers have decreased.
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The managers have indeed increased performance over two years, specifically in the area of keeping staff job pay down and in some cases lowering it.
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FTFA (page 4): "This chart also shows that the average wage differential between staff and managers in software development remains constant at approximately 27%. "
Did you read the article? Or just post your prejudiced opinion without bothering to look at the data?
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The numbers still don't show that; the gap is actually closing according to this survey:
Staff Salary / Manager Salary = staffs' salary as percentage of managers'
2010: 93/123 = 75.6%
2011: 96/126 = 76%
2012: 100/128 = 78%
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I think he was claiming that the income in question wasn't really really widening as a gap.
All of the numbers under discussion are well under the top 1%, and are, in fact, barely pushing top 10%.
From my perspective being able to get into the top 10% of wage earners with 30 years experience, or 25 and a masters or some luck etc. is pretty reasonable. Where the US especially seems to be having problems is the people who make 350K+ per year are growing wealth much faster than everyone else. Now you can certa
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This is because of the arbitrary lines that HR draws on how much a position can pay. They base it on surveys such as this one. Then if some hotshot developer wants more money, HR says no, and if the bossman wants to give him a raise, he has to change the developers title to manager. Number of reports? Zero.
Misses the rocket scientists. (Score:3)
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Not that much more. A PhD in physics, chem or maths is mostly in the professor bracket. Which typically cap out in the 160k range as a full prof with 30 years experience. But you start at 50-70 and claw your way up from there. Engineering is a bit more than that, but not a lot. You can make more than that in industry of course, but the vast majority of PhD's in science are still academic type jobs.
Que? (Score:2)
The useful data is at the bottom of each page (Score:3)
The useful information lies in the summary at the bottom of each page.
"Software engineers, however, saw an almost 3% increase â" slightly higher than inflation." "project leaders, and analysts all enjoyed raises that outpaced inflation" "the southern states and the mountain time zone saw the biggest percentage increases in salary" "Additional bonuses were inversely proportional to the size of the group"
In other words, MOST positions are NOT keeping up with inflation, and bonuses are given out to only a few people (no way to track who deserves them.) But we knew that already, because the CEOs get most of the bonus money.
Salary survey reveals: We're still fucked
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There's no good reason for IT salaries to be falling and for businesses to be simultaneously claiming there's a shortage of IT workers.
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In a world where around 30% of people live on less than $2 a day, being able to earn something like 100x that amount of money says to me something very different than "we're f*cked."
In a country in which it's illegal to be broke, and in which the economic situation is clearly getting worse year by year, you're not seeing the picture. You are aware that there's people starving right here in the good old US of A?
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Yes, I am aware of that, more so than most, because my workplace and church are in some of the poorest neighborhoods in Cleveland, Ohio, which is among the poorest cities in the U.S., which has among the highest rates of concentrated poverty in the developed world.
Even so, very few people are actually starving, and those people are not making 90k per year. Most of those who suffer from malnutrition and actual hunger are the children of substance abusers and/or the working poor who do not qualify for most f
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Even so, very few people are actually starving, and those people are not making 90k per year.
Well, that's kind of my point. People who were already making enough to survive on are getting pay increases which keep up with inflation, and the other people aren't.
Nice Reading, Thanks (Score:2)
Niches (Score:2)
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Soylent Green is people!
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I was probably employee #5 or 6 at one point, but now that a few
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So far, no. I mean, I still get paid enough to put food on the table and pay most of my bills. I used to be able to pay all my bills, but inflation happened and salary increases didn't, so now I realistically make about 40% less than I did when I started. But, they keep promising and I am gullible enough to believe them.
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What's the difference between a Software Developer and a Software Engineer?
A software developer will be primarily concerned with writing code from the given requirements. A software engineer is concerned with the entire process of producing high quality code, how that code fits into the business, how the requirements are established, how bugs are tracked over time, ensuring code reviews are effective, that testing coverage is appropriate without costing too much, how projects are managed, creating and using metrics, and of course writing high quality code.
See the SWEBOK [computer.org] for a goo
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What's the difference between a Software Developer and a Software Engineer?
A software developer will be primarily concerned with writing code from the given requirements. A software engineer is concerned with the entire process of producing high quality code, how that code fits into the business, how the requirements are established, how bugs are tracked over time, ensuring code reviews are effective, that testing coverage is appropriate without costing too much, how projects are managed, creating and using metrics, and of course writing high quality code.
Hmmm... I've always thought of it more as: