Big MOOC On Campus: Georgia Tech's $6,600 MS In CS 163
theodp writes "Next January, writes the NYT's Tamar Lewin, the Georgia Institute of Technology plans to partner with Udacity and AT&T to offer a master's degree in CS through massive open online courses for a fraction of the on-campus cost. Georgia Tech's Online Master of Science in Computer Science can be had for $6,600 — far less than the $45,000 on-campus price. The courses will be online and free for those not seeking a degree; those in the degree program will take proctored exams and have access to tutoring, online office hours and other support. AT&T, which ponied up a $2 million donation, will use the program to train employees and find potential hires. Initial enrollment will be limited to a few hundred students recruited from AT&T and Georgia Tech corporate affiliates. Zvi Galil, the dean of the university's College of Computing, expects that the program could attract up to 10,000 students annually, many from outside the U.S. 'Online, there's no visa problem,' he said."
Returning start-up drop outs? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Returning start-up drop outs? (Score:5, Insightful)
Being a decent coder has little to do with CS. It's a very valuable skill in its own right, but quite different.
Re:Returning start-up drop outs? (Score:4, Interesting)
Being a decent coder has little to do with CS. It's a very valuable skill in its own right, but quite different.
Very true. Unfortunately, many employers haven't a clue what the difference is. I see too many jobs ads looking for a CS degree when what they want is a good programmer. They end up with a CS major who hasn't a clue how to design or write good code. Or vice-versa, they get a programmer to do software engineering and wonder why they end up with a crap program that doesn't meet their needs.
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Re:Returning start-up drop outs? (Score:5, Insightful)
I get that it's cool to hate the educational establishment and all, but if you're choosing between 20 freshly minted CS master degree holders and 20 hardcore coders, you're not qualified to be hiring anybody. Most likely a mixing of people with education and work experience is going to yield optimal results, not choosing to hire only people with one sort of experience. Especially, if you're wanting to create a product that hasn't been done to death.
There's a shitload of crap code out there written by "hardcore coders", none of which is an example to be emulated. Sure, the masters degree holders might not have experience, but they also don't have much experience writing crappy code. Which, from the comments I see around here from "professional programmers", could very easily justify not hiring people that have decades of wrong experience to retrain.
what about 2-4 year tech school degrees vs CS? (Score:3)
if you're choosing between 20 freshly minted CS master degree holders (theroy loaded classes) and 20 say people with 2-4 years tech school degrees (classes with more hands on work) and experience
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Based on your UID, I assume you have been on /. for ~7-10 years? Why would you want to get a degree if you are an experienced programmed working at a startup? Sorry, but this is a pretty solid troll :)
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I see we are UID dropping here?
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No, not really, but I guess you are ;)
Actually, I think it would be interesting to see a graph of UID vs. registration date. I'm guessing it was fairly exponential at first, and then leveled out in recent years...
Re:Returning start-up drop outs? (Score:4, Insightful)
Pretty much, the quality of everything from the +5 posts to the troll posts used to be a lot higher a decade ago. Now, even the trolls lack imagination and much of the "insightful" posting is just parroting whatever group think is en vogue at the moment.
Re:Returning start-up drop outs? (Score:5, Interesting)
Ok, so data points - at 900k that was a decade ago - say ~'03? (I think @ 300k I joined somewhere in '99?) Maybe we can create a chart, I think it would be interesting... (and I'm sure the /. mods have all that info but am wondering if they would find it as interesting to divulge...)
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Pretty sure the 900k mark was early 05. Any earlier than that and I would have used my previous alias.
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As a moderator, I'm not sure what you mean by "/. mods have all that info".
Certainly, being #304068, you've been a moderator as well, so you must already realize: Mods aren't all that special here.
But the data is out there, for
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As a moderator, I'm not sure what you mean by "/. mods have all that info".
I should have been more specific/accurate: "the slashdot editors/programmers have all of that info". Of course I know anyone who had moderated a comment doesn't have full access to the slashdot user database :)
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I honestly can't remember when I joined. I wish I knew. 22k, whoop! :)
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Pretty much, the quality of everything from the +5 posts to the troll posts used to be a lot higher a decade ago. Now, even the trolls lack imagination and much of the "insightful" posting is just parroting whatever group think is en vogue at the moment.
Someone who's nearly the millionth user, number 940851, shouldn't be commenting on the "good old days". (Neither should I, but I'm not doing that. :) )
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UID 0 or gtfo.
or:
Everyone can be UID 0.
startup won't last forever, get letters behind nam (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been there and done that. The start-up almost surely won't last forever. Even if it does, you won't want to work 55 hours a week while your baby is waking you up at 3AM. At some point, you'll probably want a nice 8-5 with good insurance and time off. When that time comes, you need letters behind your name.
I had all of the other credentials. I have seventeen years of full professional experience. I'm an Apache contributor. At one interview, the interviewer asked me if I had experience with Debian, as that was their preferred distro. I asked if he'd seen that morning's Debian security update. He seen it and applied the update. My name was on that Debian alert, I discovered the security issue all Debian users were alerted to that morning. I didn't get the job. Put letters at the end of your name while you can.
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The computer industry is cyclic (Score:2)
Retention rates? (Score:4, Insightful)
It will be very interesting to see what their retention numbers end up looking like. We've had cheap, modestly interactive, education since 'correspondence courses' hit the scene (examples date to at least the 18th century, with spikes and troughs in popularity over time); but we've had less success getting the results achieved in-person from even the most tech-laden variations.
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The Open University have been doing this in the UK for many years, and appear to be going from strength to strength.
yes, I work with OU bringing it to Texas A&M (Score:3)
Indeed. I work closely with Open University as we extend the software they use (Moodle) to work for our students at the Texas A&M System. Until this year, people would travel from all over the world to attend our firefighter school for twelve weeks. Now, all of the classroom part is online, so they can either come to Texas for just six weeks, or they can do our online classroom and then do field exercises in their home area.
We're rapidly expanding the capabilities of the software system it all runs on
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I think that the Ivies focus more on rejection rates (If you can't get acceptances down to the single digits, you are letting just anyone in); but actually boast extremely high [univstats.com] completion rates(this, of course, may hide a large number of would-be doctors who hit the organic chemistry weeder and decided that something a little softer was more their style; but actually flunking somebody out once you've let them in is... unseemly).
An enthusiasm for attrition seems to be more of a tech school thing.
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If it's free that's one thing, otherwise it means that you've taken money from 80% of the students that enrolled and probably not given them anything of value.
The number of students that complete the course work is most certainly one of the aspects that should be assessed when judging a program. Having 4 burn out for every 1 that completes does not speak well to the design of the course. A course should permit most of the students to complete, assuming they put in the effort and master the material.
Neither
I'll do it (Score:1)
I already have two degrees from Georgia Tech, but not one in CS yet. For $6,600 a MSCS from Georgia Tech is a no brainer.
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Unless you collect degrees because you don't have enough artwork on your wall, it doesn't at all seem like a no-brainer. If you think you will put in effort and LEARN it might be useful, but that would in fact require a brain...
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It's not a bad thing to go back to school later in your career to get up to speed on the state of the art and maybe even pick up new skills.
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Except colleges rarely teach "state of the art", they usually teach theory or programming languages a few years behind the times...
I don't disagree a BS is a great foundation or that keeping up is a good idea, but once you are an experienced engineer it's really not that hard to "keep up" on your own - for free.
Also, given a good, experienced software engineer can make $150-200k+ these days, any time away from that is probably a bigger expense than will ever be paid back through salary raises, etc.
but that should not be an 2-4 year block new skill (Score:2)
Learning new skills should be some kind of badges system not the old school system.
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That's fine for trade schools, but worse than useless for real schools.
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There are many ways of learning that don't involve spending thousands of dollars.
In my experience knowing something is worthless in the job market unless you have a piece of paper showing you spent thousands of dollars to learn it, and even then actually knowing what you have your degree in isn't even really required.
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Just courses? (Score:2)
Re:Just courses? (Score:5, Informative)
In my experience, what you describe is a doctorate program. A masters is mostly courses with research as an option.
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Only if it's original research. A typical PhD program requires that you advance the field, whereas a masters program will permit you to conduct research that's just investigating things that have been investigated and synthesizing other people's research into new papers.
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Whenever I've asked a PhD who I met how they "advanced human knowledge of the field", they have giggled at my naiveté. Based on a number of those experiences, I now take that requirement as not at all literal. Some PhDs advance the field; most don't.
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Eh, for many schools - even the top ones like Stanford - an MS is just a chance to take more graduate level courses - TAing and research is optional. That said I find it hard to imagine you learn the same things online, since said "top schools" also put a lot of emphasis on sections and fairly complex programming assignments...
Re:Just courses? (Score:5, Insightful)
When you get a masters' degree, you spend a year or more committing yourself 24 hours a day to learning something, and you're in a community of people who are engaged in the same commitment to learning something. Your eating, sleeping, and social life revolves around an intellectual community. You learn a lot through serendipity. A chance meeting in the hall can give you a direction for your career.
When you take a MOOC, you're not giving it the same commitment and you're not among the same community. That's especially true if you take it free.
You could just read the same textbooks that masters' degree students read. But you'd be missing something.
I could read transcripts of the Feynmann lectures. But that wouldn't be the same as going to school and taking lectures with Feynmann.
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But you'd be missing something.
Not wasting money leaves an empty hole in my heart.
Just because some people are lazy, unmotivated, and unintelligent doesn't mean that everyone is.
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But you'd be missing something.
Not wasting money leaves an empty hole in my heart.
Just because some people are lazy, unmotivated, and unintelligent doesn't mean that everyone is.
Either you're very hard-working, motivated and intelligent, or you're an example of the Dunning–Kruger effect. I wonder which is more likely?
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I wonder which is more likely?
I'd say fallacy of the false dilemma. Plus, you still have yet to acknowledge the huge cost differential here.
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"I never mentioned myself, so it's rather odd how you acted as if I did."
Yes, you did. Unless you think the word "my" is not a personal reference.
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:
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"Not in the second sentence, which is what he replied to, I didn't."
Well, it seemed to me the reply was to the whole comment, not just one sentence, but I could be wrong about that.
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"I don't live in a dreamland; I live in cold, hard reality. "
Is impersonating others an example of your "cold, hard reality"? That's an interesting point of view.
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:
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24 hours a day? Please. (Score:3)
I have two sisters with Masters degrees. One went the fairly traditional route of 4 years for an undergrad degree, a decade or so in the work force, then another decade or so working on her Masters at a traditional institution as time and budget permitted. She finally completed her degree shortly after she turned 40. She has been working as an globe hopping industrial trainer, author, and project manager all along.
My other sister took about 20 years to complete her undergrad degree and another 4 to compl
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I'm not sure what the benefit is of a degree that somebody takes over several years while she's working.
For some jobs, particularly in the sciences and technology, the degree gives you information and understanding you need to do your job. But if you're already working in your profession, what else do you need?
I realize that in some professions, like teaching, an advanced degree is high regarded for promotions and pay increases. I'm not sure whether that's just credentialization for its own sake or whether
Proctored remote exam? (Score:2)
Re:Proctored remote exam? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Proctored remote exam? (Score:4, Informative)
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http://www.omscs.gatech.edu/faq/ [gatech.edu]
"All exams are proctored using national proctoring standards. We have access to 4,500 physical proctoring facilities and are working with online proctoring institutions."
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A "properly" designed evaluation method is pretty cheat proof even if not proctored. Especially if you've been having your students move in that direction over the previous assignments.
Of course, designing such an assessment/evaluation is very hard to do, and grading it can be equally hard.
But, for those instructors that just want to give a 50 question multiple choice test from the text publisher's test bank, yeah, they need a proctor. There are a few online proctoring services that use webcams, etc. to m
text publisher's test bank sucks for IT (Score:2)
IT test needs to be more hands on based or graded not on all multiple choice but some kind of skill test.
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Yup. Even in the face-to-face Linux admin class I teach only 20% of the students grade comes from exams (one of which is a hands on skill exam for copying files, dealing with tar.gz and tar.bz2 files, moving files, looking at permissions, etc). Rest is lab work and projects.
$45,000 for a Master's? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sorry, folks, but no Master's in CS is worth $45,000, and certainly not from Georgia Tech when better schools offer the same for half the tuition (Univ. of Texas comes to mind), and regional schools for a quarter of this. This seems to be nothing more than a marketing ploy to show what a good "deal" you could get if you went 100% online while at the same time inflating the quality of the on-campus program at Georgia Tech.
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Re:$45,000 for a Master's? (Score:4, Informative)
UT Austin is 0.1 point above Tech in the rankings for CS Grad Schools. As has been noted, if you're in-state or on a GTA or GRA, the tuition drops precipitously or is basically waived. Whether it's a #10 or #9 school isn't really going to matter during interviews. Both are superb schools with an excellent reputation among hiring managers (and I've hired-a-plenty out of both).
Tuition rates between the two schools are not significantly different. Tech is a bit over $13K/semester and UT Austin is a smidge over $12K/semester.
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According to this [gatech.edu], the tuition cost of a 2 year grad degree at Georgia Tech would be $54,660 for out-of-state, assuming you have 12 credit our semesters. ($22,468 for in-state) It may be that it is not worth that much, but I don't think the $45k number was invented for comparison purposes.
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Your post sounds like you think GT is a community college. Are you confusing Georgia Tech with UGA?
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Clean, old-fashioned hate rears its ugly head. Oh well, I guess it *is* almost September...
Go Dawgs!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean,_Old-Fashioned_Hate [wikipedia.org]
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Actually this fracturing of advanced study programs in computing could actually launch the start of something very new in computer education. The big shift to medical school like training, where learning is conducted at a major educational hospital and for computing learning would actually be at a tech services centre.
So is the best possible learning for computers to be based around an on the job tech centre, where students work and learn and can specialise in centre tech specialities, software, hardware
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Sorry, folks, but no Master's in CS is worth $45,000
For $6k, you can list a legitimate MS degree on your Resume so HR can will put it in the 'save' pile instead of the 'circular file' during initial screening. That's a pretty valuable edge these days.
Regular students pissed? (Score:1)
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Master's degree. You will have already dropped $100k on your 4-year degree before ponying up another $6k for this one.
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$100k? Mine was a quarter of that including all relevant expenses. Even if you consider the typical interest on that, it's still well below $100k.
Only idiots piss $100k (Score:2)
Master's degree. You will have already dropped $100k on your 4-year degree before ponying up another $6k for this one.
Only idiots pony $100K on a BS/BA degree. Even when college prices have ballooned since 2008, the previous statement still remains true. $6K for a MS in CS, hell even $12 or $20 is still worth it, considering that, in the hands of capable professionals, a MS degree will pay over itself for the life of one's professional career.
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how do you spend $100,000 on an undergrad degree?
most state schools the tuition is $6000 per year or semester
i guess if you go to school just to get away from your parents you run up insane student loans on out of state tuition and living expenses
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how do you spend $100,000 on an undergrad degree?
After scholarship, MIT undergrads average $24,000 a year.
http://mitadmissions.org/afford/basics [mitadmissions.org]
Carnegie Mellon $46,000 annual tuition.
http://admission.enrollment.cmu.edu/pages/tuition-fees [cmu.edu]
Stanford $14,000 per quarter
http://exploredegrees.stanford.edu/tuitionfeesandhousing/#tuitiontext [stanford.edu]
"Online, there's no visa problem" (Score:4, Insightful)
Somebody please *please* hear this message before it's too late. Too many bright foreign students who get into top notch schools are denied visas. I've seen this happen first hand multiple times at a good school. Politicians can debate visa allocation as much as they want in general. But when MIT (or some other top notch school) accepts someone can you please just give the kid a visa? Oh, and not kick him out when he graduates? Because if not, then your protectionist strategy creates a market for programs such as this one, which is a hundred times worse than the scenario you are trying to prevent.
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Somebody please *please* hear this message before it's too late. Too many bright foreign students who get into top notch schools are denied visas. I've seen this happen first hand multiple times at a good school. Politicians can debate visa allocation as much as they want in general. But when MIT (or some other top notch school) accepts someone can you please just give the kid a visa? Oh, and not kick him out when he graduates? Because if not, then your protectionist strategy creates a market for programs such as this one, which is a hundred times worse than the scenario you are trying to prevent.
The point is to give first priority to non-foreigners. The point is not to crush foreigners, but rather to increase access for Americans to education and jobs. E.g. if a foreigner gets into and attends MIT, that's one less American that gets to attend MIT. Yes, it's a protectionist strategy (whether we should have such a strategy is a separate debate), but how does this program make things 100x worse? How does it prevent Americans from getting an education or a job?
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I agree. Although I wouldn't want economic interests to decide every immigration case, it seems to me that America should be greedily hoarding the smartest people in the world by offering them a ticket into our culture, paid for by attending a major university, excelling there, and working in the field afterwards. Why the hell would we give them our top-notch education and then afterwards not let them stick around to grow our economy? Sure, many foreign students will want to return home and help their homel
Wait - it's NOT a $6000 MA. (Score:4, Informative)
It's a $7000 MA for people hand-picked from Georgia Tech's corporate partners, funded by the $2 million dollar donation from AT&T. So, assume that's covering a large chunk of the cost. The press release says that it's "initially" expected to be under $7,000.
So if you actually want the degree, it's currently not available to everyone, and it's eventually going to be more expensive.
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Whoops. Meant MS. I'm assuming it's an MS?
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I saw the same issue. This is currently only for a select few who were hand picked.
Wait until it is offered to the general public, then I will be interested.
Any program like this is going to need a pilot with a limited number of students. Normally those few students would be selected based on admissions criteria. But in this case, it appears that AT&T is funding the pilot, and did so in exchange for getting to choose who is in the pilot program.
While Georgia Tech may not exactly be on the moral high ground for letting a for-profit corporation choose who gets in, it's not necessarily fundamentally evil. They get their pilot funded, where they otherwise ma
Dupe, from 3 months back... (Score:3)
http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/05/15/023234/georgia-tech-and-udacity-partner-for-online-ms-in-computer-science [slashdot.org]
Georgia Tech and Udacity Partner for Online M.S. in Computer Science
Nothing different, except this time an NYT article that references the same?
Evolutionary Algorithms? (Score:1)
They might just duck out entirely and skip the subject. Conversely, they could they could cover the evolutionary model and then teach an alternative theory that the results of the computations are due to divine intervention.
Is this accreditation of corporate training? (Score:3, Interesting)
This makes some sense. Nearly all Fortune 500 companies offer some type of personnel training in the form of "University", aka Disney Univeristy, Oracle University, Cisco University, P&G University, etc... is typically what they are called. And if I recall can cost upto $2K (internal overhead) per course which lasts 2 weeks on avg.
"Off shoring" the corporate training basically to Academia removes the overhead costs and the companies can reducing training offerings as needed (during layoffs for instance). As for Academia, they would like to have the funding of this extra private money and will legitimize smaller schools that want to compete against the big dogs (Ivy, big state universities). Somewhat of a win-win short term, BUT will push training responsbility off corporations to individuals (we all might as well be contractors) and schools will push what businesses want rather than trailblazing or going against the status quo, as basis for a free thinking environment. Hence long term this is is likely bad.
IT needs an trades / apprenticeship system or some (Score:2)
IT needs an trades / apprenticeship system or some kind of badges system.
Education and Profitability (Score:3)
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Except when they do. It took me less than a minute to find a law degree from a very legitimate university with a concentration in IP law
http://earlemacklaw.drexel.edu/academics/concentrations/intellectual_property/ [drexel.edu]
I'm sure with a little more time, it would be no challenge to find others.
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You are too old to go to law school. You will be working for someone who is younger than you... Focus on doing your job; it's what you have.
I'm very glad I've never listened to people like you, you sound old and bitter.
Why not at the B/AS and A/AS level? (Score:3)
for some IT jobs 4 years is overkill and for some parts of IT CS is not the right fit vs more of a trades fit.
in IT, the 4 year process doesn’t work for s (Score:2)
in IT, the 4 year process doesn’t work for some, especially those who have learning disabilities,” “The older college system is not for all, and some people learn better on their own. It’s an antiquated system, especially in IT.”
“Schools that are based around 2 years of intensive, hands-on IT training are much better equipped than those spending on English or composition classes. That’s how you can be more flexible and keep up with the industry. Even awarding badg
non degree classes need to count for something (Score:2)
some of them are no credit and do not lead to a degree. Or some may only count in as part of big block of classes that when you drop in / take as on going learning.
Also some stuff just leads to vendor certs but why can't we get away from degrees or have some kind of equivalent experience system that you can put down equivalent experience to X degree with not being said to be lieing about having X degree
Why Not? Would it hurt or help long term salary? (Score:3, Interesting)
I know this sounds lame but Masters Degrees helped me draw higher pay. MBA my salary rose by 40% same company, Engineering another 20% new company, stuck it our for 1.7 years and my salary rose by another 25% -now I've breached six figures in non trivial way with options and decent bonus on top of the nice base. Although I think degrees are over rated especially from big name programs, I still can't argue with the financial results. At $6k or $7k -a Masters in CS sounds like a steal?
Wonder if any of the veterans on /. truly believe the extra letters and relatively cheap out of pocket expense would somehow hurt their careers or bottom lines. Most IT workers (managers and line coders alike) spend ours studying and techniques anyway. If you can get a few extra letters and more long term for a small outlay of $6k why wouldn't you???
Even if you thought the degree added little to the field of CS overall, it's impact on a programmers earning power seems like it would be real enough on a cost vs benefit basis... And god forbid a decent programmer actually made it into management and actually helped fix what ails many organizations' IT/Business relations (ie a sane use of technology to advance business instead pet projects not worth the 8.5x11 powerpoint page used to write 'em up)...
Re:Why Not? Would it hurt or help long term salary (Score:4, Informative)
Dude, this is Slashdot, people here will never ever agree that getting an education can help your career. Around here, the mythology is that super-genius programmers don't need any education at all, and anyone who isn't a super-genius programmer can go to hell because they don't fit into the mythology.
As for me, my name-brand expensive education was hands-down the cheapest cost-per-value thing I've ever purchased by a long shot.
Mixed messages (Score:2, Informative)
The blurb says 'Go ahead, take the courses online, $6600, work hard and get a degree'. The reality (when you read the site) is that online courses won't be available for over a year, if you want to be accepted to the program, you have to go through a rigorous application process, including multiple references from people, full documentation from post secondary institutions, and a highly regulated, process to allow entry to the program (there is a massive chasm between the blurb and the apparent reality).
Crap online courses (Score:5, Interesting)
There are a lot of junk online courses out there. A lot of them are simply videos of lectures, repurposed as "online courses". Stanford does a lot of that. Their original machine learning class was like that, and it is painful. Especially since the instructor's blackboard writing (yes, it's video of a real chalk blackboard) is messy. This in a field which has its own unique (and not very good) notation.
Khan Academy has courses which consist of a color etch-a-sketch display of the instructor's writing plus a voice-over. I viewed the lectures for forces and torques recently. The instructor had clockwise and counterclockwise reversed, used a multiply symbol where he needed an add, and went from talking about a body in free space to one pinned at a pivot point without mentioning that he'd shifted. Not only is the production value very low, nobody is reviewing that stuff, or even proofreading it.
MIT's course on rotating electrical machinery is basically the class notes from a course. There are a few drawings, then endless math derivations. You don't get the labs online.
I've seen some good online courses, but most of this stuff is a low-budget conversion of old lecture and notes.
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Agreed, the quality has a long way to go. I've signed up for three or four online courses but the only one I completed was an excellent, well-polished and complete introduction to MongoDB (not exactly a college-level course, but very well presented). A video classroom needs to be even better than a personal classroom and so far the average product quality is decidedly subpar.
complete curriculum yet? (Score:2)
Still need a BS to apply (Score:2)
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