Homeless, Unemployed, and Surviving On Bitcoins 403
An anonymous reader writes "Wired profiles a homeless man who's supporting himself primarily through Bitcoin. Jesse Angle, a former network engineer, earns small amounts throughout the day by visiting various websites that pay him to look at ads. He then converts it to gift certificates and uses the certificates to buy food. '"It's a lot less embarrassing," he says. "You don't have to put yourself out there." And unlike panhandling in Pensacola, using an app like Bitcoin Tapper won't put him on the wrong side of the law. This past May, Pensacola — where Angle has lived since April — passed an ordinance that bans not only panhandling but camping on city property.' Angle learned about Bitcoin from a charity organization called Sean's Outpost that wanted something better than PayPal for accepting donations over the internet. The organization has even opened an outreach center paid for solely with Bitcoins. Founder Jason King said, 'Bitcoin beats the s#!% out of regular money, We've resonated so well with people because it's direct action. There's no chaff between donation and helping people.'"
What's the word (Score:5, Funny)
eHobo?
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Re:What's the word (Score:4, Insightful)
This sounds like something from a Futurama episode.
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Who knows if this story is true or not, it just doesn't seem to add up. Thanks to Jimmy Kimmel you can't trust ANYTHING you see on the internet anymore. The internet's best days are behind it.
Re: What's the word (Score:5, Funny)
With the support of the homeless, there is no stopping bit coin.
Re: What's the word (Score:5, Funny)
Hey man would you gimme some bitcoins so I can get a bite to eat? My address is 31uEbMgunupShBVTewXjtqbBv5MndwfXhb
Re: What's the word (Score:5, Funny)
I would, but you'll only spend it on Silk Road.
Re: What's the word (Score:3, Insightful)
I have a word for it! It's BULLSHIT. Nothing to get the weekend going like another bit coin bullshit story!
Homeless? (Score:3)
Homeless guys drinking Monster energy drinks? That crap is very expensive.
Re:Homeless? (Score:4, Insightful)
Indeed. This isn't a real homeless person -- the type who not only doesn't have a job, but doesn't have much chance of getting a job (any job). This is merely a person who refuses to work "beneath himself". We all know he could have a job at Wal-Mart, 7-11, or McDonald's within a few hours. He just refuses to do it.
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So Electric Hobo looks good on your resume?
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Normally it is drugs or mental issues (Score:3)
Generally to actually wind up without a place to live, one of those two things come in to play. With mental issues it is fairly easy to understand: The person is crazy, does not perceive reality, and makes choice most find very strange. Also, even if help is available (which it quite often isn't in the US), they don't want it since a sad part of many mental illnesses is to make you not think you are ill. After all they are a problem with the brain and your brain is what you use to tell if you have problems.
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Best Buy does not want people who know what they are doing they want people who can sell and sell rip off geek squad stuff and useless protection plans
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You sure? Unemployment rate seems to be around 7% in the USA [bls.gov] and from what I've read around those numbers don't actually count the number of people that aren't employed, just the ones that are registered in welfare (or something like it, I forget). Two, he can't really move from where he is, so he can't move to where jobs may be. And considering the numbers, I doubt anybody outside of his city would be willing to pay him to move.
So, tell me where would he be able to find a job where many others have faile
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Why can't you move if all your possessions can fit inside a single backpack?
And how does a McJob prevent homelessness? (Score:4, Interesting)
It's quite possible that he could get such a job, though I don't know what the job market is like in Pensacola (I believe that's where the article indicated he was). That doesn't mean that he could afford rent somewhere - from the article, the main person being discussed became homeless initially after a multi-roommate apartment fell apart, and has bounced in and out of being able to afford a place since.
The more interesting part of the article is that some homeless are now starting to use Bitcoin as a way to get around not having a bank account (hard to do when you have no fixed address, I believe). This ties in well with many low-income folks having (disproportionally?) good smartphones - they can do it because that's the Internet access they can afford, and if they actually have a contract they may be getting decent phones because they can manage the installments.
Re:And how does a McJob prevent homelessness? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's worse than that. Yes, you need some kind of an address to get a bank account thanks to stricter AML laws passed in the PATRIOT Act.
However, if you spend a while in the cash economy, when you do get back on your feet many banks will refuse to take your cash as a deposit. Because they don't know how you got that cash, they are afraid of being considered money launderers by allowing you to deposit it. So once people fall out of the banking system it can be hard to get back in, which then in turn keeps these people down (and more likely to be criminals). All in the name of fighting the terrorists.
By the way, the US government knows the power of being evicted from the financial system full well. That's why they're starting to enforce US law internationally even though they can't jail people outside their borders. Instead of jail the punishment they use is being blacklisted from the financial system and having all your bank accounts closed. If you're a middle class guy with a home, a mortgage, kids etc and one day banks stop wanting to deal with you because you pissed off the US, then you could find yourself on the street faster than you might think. After all, what are you going to do when your bank accounts get closed - take out your life savings and pension as cash?
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It's quite possible that he could get such a job, though I don't know what the job market is like in Pensacola (I believe that's where the article indicated he was). That doesn't mean that he could afford rent somewhere.
So he can leave Pensacola and go where the jobs/money are. My dad moved our family from Florida to Michigan to Arizona and then CA for work. He never batted an eye, never thought to get hand outs or bitch that life wasn't fair. He went where the work is. I'm sick of the lazy bastards who wont move for a good job and a chance to better their life.
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Uh huh. And how did he do that - by giving you piggyback rides back and forth across the U.S., or giving blowjobs to hitchhike? Or did he pack you guys up in the family car and pay for gas along the way?
I'm sick of sociopa
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How can people refuse to take some menial job that can easily be automated (self-service checkout, roomba...)? How dare they choose not to do what benefits me by satisfying my need to control others' choices? By Jove, I must find some excuse to compel them ... how about economics? Of course I know by the Modigliani-Miller theorem that debt doesn't matter, but I'll cynically use it as an emotional ploy to reassert my divine right to force others to behave according to my whims!1
they may not hire some with even 3 years IT to wor (Score:2)
they may not hire some with even 3 years IT to work min wage and even if they do get the job it may be 5-10-20 hours a week.
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A job at wal-mart, 7-11 or McDonalds does not pay well enough to pay rent, food, transportation for a person. And those are jobs that will require a home address and transportation. Even combining 2 such incomes does not allow a pair of people to have reliably cover basic costs. That requires 3 or more people in such positions per household.
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Says who?
It's not a great life, but there's a whole world of people living on less than $300/week. Even with a modest $800/mo after taxes, with no public assistance of any sort you can eat, have your own studio apartment, and take the bus to work -- just like everyone you've ever seen on the bus does. Do you have to get a roommate - or just rent a room - if you live somewhere where housing is expensive? Probably. Do you have to eat "poor people food" from actual grocery stores? Probably.
But this idea t
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No. Low end rent is not accessible to the minimum wage. Where I live in the Florida panhandle, the minimum cost for rent and utilities exceeds the monthly pay from a 40 hour per week minimum wage job. Now you also need to cover food and transportation. Minimum wage jobs require reliable transportation, bus service (even in the rare case it is available) does not count, you have to have access to a car or you will not be hired.
You've never applied for those jobs, have you? (Score:5, Interesting)
We all know he could have a job at Wal-Mart, 7-11, or McDonald's within a few hours.
You obviously don't know anyone who works in that segment of the economy. None of those places are "always hiring," and most have backlogs of resumes to go through. Worse, having a resume with a good job history on it is poison for low-end jobs, where people assume that you'll be jumping ship at first chance for a better job more in line with what you've done. Speaking from experience, no one wants someone with 7 years of development experience and a fresh law degree to deliver their pizzas.
Plus, my friend who does work for Wal-mart? He'd be homeless too if he couldn't live with him Mom based on what they pay him in his eternally part-time position.
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Re:Pathetic (Score:5, Informative)
I wouldn't call coffee nutritious in any way, but I know that I can get about 5 pounds of bananas, 1 pound of beans, or 2 pounds of rice for the price of one of those "energy drinks".
Comparing apples and beans (Score:3)
Before you crow the victory of frugility with your beans and rice, you might consider that those are "unprepared foods".
Same sort of problem that aid NGOs have: You can hand out 5 pounds of rice to a family to "feed them for a week" (or however long), but unless said family ALSO has the means to prepare that rice, you aren't FEEDING them.
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Hand sanitizer >> Sterno.
Re:Pathetic (Score:4, Interesting)
That comparison holds in the case where someone has a low income but at least has a home or some sort of environment where cooking is possible.
If you’re living on the streets, where are you going to cook your ground beef or eggs? Where are you going to refrigerate them so that you can take advantage of the lower per-meal cost spread over the course of several days? That type of economy of scale is only possible with a certain minimum level of capital. Namely that required to maintain or maintain access to a kitchen, IE a “home”.
Honestly, caffeinated sugar solution is a subjectively “good” choice if you’re broke and hungry. Granted, it lacks in protein, so long-term it sucks. Short-term, though, it gives you energy (sugar) and a stimulant boost (caffeine) which will tend to make you feel less hungry. You’ll be digesting your own organs before long, but at least you won’t feel “starving”.
You’d be better off trying to find some pre-cooked or raw-consumable, shelf-stable (no refrigeration required) protein, but I’m honestly at a loss to name any complete proteins that fit those requirements that are cheaper than a McWhatever...
At some point (Score:2)
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Politics. Why is panhandling banned? Because a lot of people don't want to see it. Why is camping banned? Because then the homeless will have to move and become Someone Else's Problem. If supplying free power eventually leads to a small 'homeless camp' appearing for a few hours a day as they all charge their phones, you can be sure the city would find some way to put an end do it.
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Homelessness (Score:4, Insightful)
They can pass all the laws they want, but until they do something about unemployment, mental illness, and drug abuse, people will continue begging for money and "camping" on city property. You can put them in jail (which, for some, would be a step up in living conditions), but then you'll spend a lot of money while doing nothing to address the actual problem.
Good news! (Score:5, Funny)
My sister's husband's nephew is homeless but makes $4,500 a month just looking at Internet ads!!! You can too!!!
For more information go here:
http://www.makemoneywhilelivingunderthebridge.com
Re:Good news! (Score:4, Funny)
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Since makemoneywhilelivingunderthebridge.com isn't registered, it would be a pretty ineffectual spam message. But then again, a good portion of the spam messages I get have broken, malformed, or incomprehensible links so I guess it's still probably unclear.
Its otherwise correct spelling and grammar with the exception of multiple exclamation points makes me think it's a genuine comment, and above par for most Slashdot comments to boot.
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I started reading "My sister" and immediately thought "hookers accepting bitcoin! neat!"
Wow the US sure has well off homeless (Score:4, Insightful)
I saw large screen laptops, a smart phone, monster energy drink, bottled water, etc. in the articles photos. However, he was bummed out he lost power while playing a game on said large screen laptop. I guess it does suck being destitute in the US. Imagine your CoD game cut short. I will call BS on the poor homeless pity me routine.
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And 2 packs of cigarettes, that like $8 right there. Like many who do the boohoo routine about being poor, they can't control their own spending and spend on the most frivolous things all the while saying "I can't live." What bullshit.
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Why are people like you so pissy because some homeless people happen to live better than dogs?
And why do you feel you have to care? if you want to live your self-centered, hateful and ignorant life then mind your own business.
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I suppose the way it can work is this - after a reasonable if not rich life style, they lose a job and lose the apartment. They now get food stamps, but it's not quite enough to live off each months, so they end up living on the street. Due to the lack of rent payments, they now have enough money from social security to buy OK food and drinks. They still have laptop and phone from before things went south, even though they might not be able to afford a new one.
Internet Advertising (Score:3, Interesting)
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Not bitcoins. (Score:2, Informative)
earns small amounts throughout the day by visiting various websites that pay him to look at ads.
He's not "surviving on bitcoins", he's surviving off ad viewing.
This has been around long before bitcoin, and will be around long after.
What currency he chooses to get paid in really isn't important, but hey, you need people to click your damn story.
So, it has come to this. (Score:2)
./ is plagiarizing headlines now. What, editors, can't think up your own?
Shouldn't this story run on April 1? (Score:2)
>he still gets paid in bitcoin, just because it’s easier and safer. He doesn’t have to worry as much about getting robbed.
Unless...someone steals his laptop.
>> Angle used to work as a network engineer and a computer repair technician — as well as a carpenter and a pool cleaning guy, among other jobs — but the work eventually petered out.
...and now I'm buying him food stamps and energy drinks so he can help marketing departments game search engines? Awesome.
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He doesn't have to worry as much about getting robbed.
Unless...someone steals his laptop.
Actually, if the wallet is deterministic and encrypted with a passphrase—the default for the Electrum client, among others—and he either memorized the seed or recorded it somewhere safe, then even that wouldn't be a problem. Of course, he'd still be out the cost of replacing the laptop, but he wouldn't lose his bitcoins.
Physical theft of the device is less of a threat these days than malware. Malicious software running on your device has a better chance of being able to access your private keys.
Bravo Sierra (Score:3)
Nope.
Not buying it.
He might be suplimenting his income by clicking on bitcoin ads all day long (or having a script do it), but he's not panhandling enough in just Bitcoins to do that. Getting paid in uBTC is tedious at best. You couldn't ge a single pack of the cigarette's he's smoking that way.
Homeless by Choice (Score:2)
Anyone who thinks there is immigrant displacement of US workers is a neo-Nazi sympathizer at best. [vdare.com]
Homeless, unemeployed.... but (Score:3)
But with a laptop, smartphone and internet access? Seriously?
What this guy needs to do is get the hell out of Florida and into a state with an economy where he can get a job. Probably the only reason he's unemployed is Florida. Maybe he just wants to surf all day rather than spend time in the office. Somehow I'm doubting that a homeless man has all these digital toys, yet, didn't give those up to avoid being "homeless".
Someone's being scammed here, and it's us Slashdot readers for even believing ONE WORD in this story. What's next, this homeless man gets his own reality TV series?
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Dumbass, doesn't he know that he could surf all day from the office?
Re:Homeless, unemeployed.... but (Score:5, Insightful)
I seriously doubt he pays a phone bill unless it's prepaid, certainly not for data. Bitcoin doesn't require a bank account (which often charges a monthly fee if you have too little money) and people can't beat you up and take your bitcoins.
And exactly how is selling your laptop to maybe afford one more month of rent going to help your living situation? Then you're just homeless without a laptop.
I think he has proved that keeping the laptop is worth its weight in food as a potential income source.
I don't understand why people always hate on the homeless. Is it so impossible to imagine a situation where you're down on your luck and fall through the cracks? Not everyone has a safety net of family and friends. I almost feel like the idea scares people so much that they get reflexively angry about as a form of denial.
"It's impossible! This could obviously never happen to me and so these people must be scammers, scum, or addicts!"
"Homeless" (Score:4, Interesting)
When I was younger - early teens to late teens, my father would volunteer with food banks, homeless shelters and with the handicapped (these would frequently overlap with the same people). This meant that I too would volunteer (whether I wanted to or not). Anyways, I would hear the same story a lot of the time about how through no fault of their own these people would lose their job, their house and cars and would have nowhere to go. They wanted help in the form of food, place to stay, etc..
In my experience maybe 1/10 of these people were genuinely down on their luck and looking for help to start over. They would do what it took to get back on their feet. The other 9 merely paid lip service to this. They actually preferred to live on the street and continue the lifestyle of not being a part of "normal" society. We'd help these people get into a program where they have food/shelter and a step by step system to start managing their lives and getting a job - they'd leave the next day because they cant' handle or don't want structure in their lives. They want to be "free" and "independent" but at the same time don't want to have to make an equal contribution to society to pay back these resources they use.
I look at this guy lounging outside a library with his laptop, drinking monster energy drinks and eating chicken pot pies. He's taking food stamps to support himself and yet he buys shitty unhealthy food that's way too expensive for someone on a restricted income. I got one thing to say to this guy and his friends, "Go fuck yourself!".
Good for resume too. (Score:3)
Bitcoin saved my home... (Score:5, Interesting)
A few bitcoin donations helped me make my mortgage payment last month, and I have a little left over. Things are picking up but it's still really tight. I had to have emergency dental surgery (blessed wisdom teeth) too... There is a point that you reach when you're desperate that you still feel the shame of begging, but the need overwhelms it.
I'll just leave this here: 17S6drtGpJXer6qA5V6XhP3snasGWANBjc
Re:Why bitcoin? (Score:4, Interesting)
Bitcoin has extra marketing value. People can donate Bitcoins rather than dollars, and they feel like they're somehow working outside "the system", as though the US government couldn't see or track what's going on. Really, the government can't track cash, either, but cash is old and familiar, where Bitcoin is new and exciting.
Re:Why bitcoin? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Why bitcoin? (Score:5, Informative)
Opening a US bank account generally requires a permanent address and proof of [traditional] employment. Not something the homeless are likely to get. Even an account established pre-homelessness likely had some minimum balance required to keep it open. Keeping that last $100 or so locked up to maintain an account when you’re hungry isn’t a choice I think many would make.
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> Opening a US bank account generally requires a permanent address and proof of [traditional] employment
Why do you say you need proof of employment to open a bank account? Credit Unions don't. None of the major US banks do.
Re:Why bitcoin? (Score:4, Insightful)
So lets put you charity spending in a place where you cannot get tax deductions for it. Smart, way to stick it to the man!
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Those who are paying him are using fradulent methods to inflate view counters, so they want to stay anonymous.
Re:Oh my god (Score:5, Interesting)
Probably more of a failure in our mental health system. Also, young men are last on the list when shelters are overcrowded.
Re:Oh my god (Score:5, Insightful)
young men are last on the list when shelters are overcrowded.
As a single young man I can say that single young men are last on the list for just about everything.
Re:Oh my god (Score:5, Insightful)
young men are last on the list when shelters are overcrowded.
As a single young man I can say that single young men are last on the list for just about everything.
Wait'll you're a single old man, and we'll talk. Oh yeah, I'll be dead then.
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That's not entirely fair. Single young men are first on the list for military conscription.
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True, but they are highly correlated. This guy practically screams mental illness. His roommates all moved out? He used to be in IT? No friends or family to stay with? Hmm... Let me ask you: if you had a friend who you knew was sleeping in a carport, wouldn't you offer them a bed - or at least whatever space you do have? If your answer is "it depends on", then many of the things you are about to say tend to be traits common in someone with mental illness.
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True, but they are highly correlated.
Of course one reason they are correlated is that a previously mentally healthy person can become mentally ill after spending a little time homeless.
Re:Oh my god (Score:4, Insightful)
Let me ask you: if you had a friend who you knew was sleeping in a carport, wouldn't you offer them a bed - or at least whatever space you do have? If your answer is "it depends on", then many of the things you are about to say tend to be traits common in someone with mental illness.
Is it really that simple, though? Sure if I learned a friend of mine was homeless I would offer them a couch to crash on until they got back on their feet but this is also only possible due to my lifestyle. If I had a family to worry about, this might not be such an easy commitment to make, let alone the added cost of taking care of a homeless person no matter who they are with potentially no foreseeable fix in sight.
Re:Oh my god (Score:5, Insightful)
is it a failure of the US social safety net that this man has to do this?
Maybe, or maybe not. If he has to do this, because he's unable to obtain any other employment even with heavy searching, then yes. If he prefers this to any other position or hasn't tried to find such a position, then no.
The biggest problem in charity is telling the difference between the two.
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Lets not forget that second case can be very aggressive at seeking things to enable there choice.
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Surely if he has the computer skills to maintain a BC wallet, he's capable of doing something that pays more than clicking linkfarms.
Re:Oh my god (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a major difference between being capable of doing a job, and being able to hold the job. Mental illness isn't often evident in a quick interview, but after a few months on the job it may be obvious. He could then be fired for "poor attitude" or similar reason, especially if the employer doesn't understand the illness. After a few such events, his job history is full of short jobs that ended with him being fired, and that effectively ends his career.
IT specifically is a field full of outcasts. We have disproportionately high rates of several mental illnesses, especially on the autism spectrum. The people who never fit in anywhere else? They still don't fit in here, but it's okay because the rest of us don't, either.
Re:Oh my god (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, holding down a job is tough when you are struggling with things like depression or any other mental illness. I compare it juggling with an extra ball added. While we are all juggle with ups and downs in life, I go into severe funks and cut myself off from the world.
I have been fighting it for years and it makes it hard to concentrate. I also take things really hard when I don't know something or can't figure out something right away. So people think I just don't care sometimes when the opposite is actually true.
While I can hold a job and went to a good school...its pretty middling work and I had poor grades. It makes me very frustrated and angry when I look back at this because I lost a good chunk of my youth sitting around waiting for the world to come crashing down on me.
My experience has been that hard work and really investing in therapy has paid the most dividends. While I do take medicines like Prozac, and it does help, being totally honest with a strong group of people (led by a very competent counselor) about my situation and past gets me away from the crushing isolation I feel sometimes. The sad thing is, the whole mental health system in this country (US) puts almost all its stock to treat illness it doesn't really understand with medicines that they don't really seem to understand. Also the US has a rapidly deteriorating safety net and more and more people that could be treated and put back into circulation as productive members of society are just falling through the cracks of this country.
I don't mean to be too political, but I have taken food stamps at one time and I can't believe the politicians are trying to cut it off.
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I think you over-estimate how difficult it is to use Bitcoin. Here's what they have to do:
1) Install app on phone (perhaps a charity case, or perhaps one they had before they lost their home)
2) Retype Bitcoin address from screen to laptop when receiving money for "microwork tasks" like spamming YouTube
3) There is no step 3.
Alternatively, step 2 can be "show someone the qrcode on your screen to receive money in person". Anyone can do it.
need to improve schooling as well (Score:3)
need to improve schooling as well. As alot of people with autism spectrum don't do well in a collage setting but do a lot better in a smaller tech / trade school setting or even learning of the job.
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Florida is even worse. There is jack shit down here for the most part.
Re:Oh my god (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm not sure what to think... I'm in Pensacola, and I'm seeing job listings for IT personnel that by all rights should be a minimum of 60K (VMWare Hypervisor and all other IT tasks, including database admin.)... Offering 30.
Re:Oh my god (Score:4, Insightful)
is it a failure of the US social safety net that this man has to do this?
Of course not. He is earning a living. Why would it be better if he was on the dole? The safety net should be for people that can't work, not those who just don't want to.
Re:Oh my god (Score:5, Interesting)
He's not "making" a living though. According to the article, he's actually living on food stamps and using bitcoin to supplement. Since he's not paying into the system, he's more of a drain than a benefit. I also assume he's doing it by choice and doesn't want to do anything more with his technical knowledge. Maybe he's just waiting for a position in management.
Re:Oh my god (Score:5, Interesting)
I have no problem with the concept that everyone needs (deserves?) a basic income provided by society. I have a huge problem with the concept that they do not, in turn, owe society for that.
Give them a basic salary and then choose what menial position the Bureau of Suggested (Forced) Labor deems is best for their skills. Maybe that is doing stupid shit on the internet, I don't know, nor care, but they damn well should be doing SOMETHING.
Giving everyone 25k a year (okay, 40k a year in some places) to live, with no expectation that they will do anything other than convert oxygen to CO2 and reproduce is rather short sighted insomuch as it ignores the vast laziness of so very, very many people.
Re:Oh my god (Score:4, Insightful)
Give them a basic salary and then choose what menial position the Bureau of Suggested (Forced) Labor deems is best for their skills. Maybe that is doing stupid shit on the internet, I don't know, nor care, but they damn well should be doing SOMETHING.
Finding a job is, itself, a full time job. What you're proposing is a bad idea, because once you get into a workfare system, it's damned near impossible to get out of it because you don't have the time to either upgrade your skills or search for a better job. Meanwhile, every time it's been implemented to date, it works out to paying *significantly* less than minimum wage.
Some people will abuse the system. People will always find a way to abuse the system. But the system should *not* be set up to penalize everybody for the actions of a few, especially not when setting it up that way ends up making it impossible to get out of the system.
Re:Oh my god (Score:4, Interesting)
It will cost more to supervise someone who does not want to work than it will to automate the job or hire someone productive.
No it doesn't. If their job is to do an automated task, the task can have a built in quality control. If they don't meet a minimum standard, then they don't get paid.
Example: My wife runs a educational website where teachers/parents can upload content. But before kids can access the content, it must be reviewed for inappropriate content (porn, profanity, etc). She uses Amazon's Mechanical Turk to hire workers to screen the content. 90% of the content is new, but 10% is randomly inserted content that has already been screened, and is known to be either be either appropriate or inappropriate. If the Turkers don't handle these tests properly, then their work is discarded, and they don't get paid .
The workers she hires are from India, Pakistan, Philippines, Indonesia, etc. But never from America. I see no reason that welfare recipients shouldn't be put to work on tasks like this instead of munching potato chips in front of the TV.
Re:Oh my god (Score:5, Informative)
With proper mental health care, a great deal of those people could be medicated, counseled and otherwise treated to the point where they could become contributing members of society, and the ones that are too far gone for that, could be off the streets and getting proper care somewhere.
We have free/public health care in Canada, as well as public drug plans like the Trillium plan here in Ontario, which can offer up to 100% drug coverage depending on your income level. We still have homeless people with mental illness. We probably have less than in the US, but you can only help people who want to be helped, and some people will always choose to live on the street. (some people will end up there because they don't realize they have a choice, but that is a different discussion entirely)
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He hasn't died yet. I'd be hard pressed to call that not a living.
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The Right says No you can't have that (well the government won't pay for it)
The Left says you can have that but you need to jump threw so many hoops to get it.
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No... the real left is thinking that a basic income guarantee is becoming very close to feasible. Perhaps not yet, but we are getting close to the point where the labor generated by people who work for either self fulfillment or access to luxury goods and services can produce enough wealth to provide every household with a basic income capable of covering rent, food and basic utilities.
Re:Oh my god (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course, that 50% number is going to dwindle in both number and quality of output as you remove any and all reward for their work. "Atta boy" will work for some, but I think the math is going to fail on that one in the long term.
To put this differently; I have a cousin who doesn't do shit. At all. She's a worthless drag on society with 5 children. I work my ass off to the tune of 60-70 hours a week, every week, sometimes quite a bit more than that. If she and I are suddenly paid the same, I am staying home and playing XBOX, fuck this work stuff.
Re:Oh my god (Score:4, Insightful)
>I work my ass off to the tune of 60-70 hours a week, every week, sometimes quite a bit more than that. If she and I are suddenly paid the same,
>I am staying home and playing XBOX, fuck this work stuff.
I don't think anyone is suggesting you'd be paid the same. I haven't seen anyone suggesting that we ban work. In a free basic income system, people would still be able to earn more money, they just wouldn't have a miserable life if they're poorly adapted to our current society. Your "worthless" cousin might have some more money in her pocket, but you can still make widgets to sell to her to improve your situation. A purely communist country would be just as bad as a completely capitalist one. You always need balance between a free market and social services.
Even if everyone was paid the same, which I think is a terrible idea, many of us are smart, capable people who enjoy and take great satisfaction from our work.
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To better state it, there are 2 issues I see:
1. I think there are a lot of people who work because they must. If they can maintain a living without having to work, they won't work.
2. Giving everyone the money you described is going to cost a lot of... money. That has to come from somewhere, and the only place that can be is the pockets of everyone working. As item 1 becomes worse, the difference in income between me (hard working) and m
Re:Oh my god (Score:5, Interesting)
No... the real left is thinking that a basic income guarantee is becoming very close to feasible. Perhaps not yet, but we are getting close to the point where the labor generated by people who work for either self fulfillment or access to luxury goods and services can produce enough wealth to provide every household with a basic income capable of covering rent, food and basic utilities.
Not even we here in Norway which is about commie-red by US standards goes that far, in fact we just took one baby step away from socialism in the last election. The problem is quite simply that if people don't feel it pays off to work they won't. If they put the "basic income" too low, the poor can't actually afford to use it. It'll only become a cheaper way for the middle class to take a year off as many people dream of doing to fulfill some sort of self-realization but find too expensive. If they raise it too close to a low-end job, who really want to struggle eight hours a day in a dead end, physically demanding job when they can bum around and play video games? Because obviously we'd have to tax the shit out of people to pay for all this, so it's not like your pay would become your current pay + your basic income, that'd require us to create tons of money from nothing.
Already we're seeing certain trends in welfare abuse, not directly fraud as such but people who try very hard to get disabilities claims or to keep their unemployment claims by not being very employable. Statistically we know these trends aren't real because we don't have the sickest population in Europe and our working conditions are very gentle compared to many other countries yet we have one of the highest disability ratios in the western world. It just doesn't add up. These are the kind of people who are already looking to get out of the job market, they'd all take basic income and never return. Recently we've had some changes to the pension system where you could elect to retire earlier for lower pensions and lots of people got out at 62 instead of 67. Really, all the signs point to that if people can get a living paycheck without working, damn many would get the hell out.
Of course, the naive say that for each one that takes a year off a position opens up for someone else. That's not how it works, businesses aren't going to hire a dropout who is also now on basic income and probably happy with it just because they lost someone, they're not that desperate to keep the headcount up. If we decrease the talent pool, the jobs are just likely to disappear or move overseas. I think such a system would belly flop miserably but I'd be the first one on it, I'd see it as a once-in-a-lifetime chance to take a year off at a reasonable cost. I'm thinking I'm not alone in that respect, good luck replacing all of us from the ranks of the currently unemployed.
Re:Oh my god (Score:4, Interesting)
Conservatives have a ton of bad ideas, hysterical beliefs, and problematic behaviors, but I think they're right that if you give people a free ride, many will contribute nothing but mouths to feed and violence, and will be a drain on us all.
I'd love to free up people's time and make having a job stop being a life and death situation, but if you give people the potential for a free ride, you start needing to add all kinds of regulation to stop abuse, and I see it needing to go as far as restricting parenthood to productive people, so maybe we're better off with the current situation.
We've made some progress with the ACA, so jobless people don't have to die in the streets, and I think we should be happy with these small steps. Reforming prisons so they rehabilitate prisoners would be a good next step. We don't need to turn our whole culture and economy upside down with a completely socialist system at this time.
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The safety net is fine but the trapeze and high wire have been in storage for years now.
We tried things with a new clown in office, but it's still the same circus.
Re:Smells Like Bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
expect a clampdown to get taxes from it, though it will be couched in verbiage of For The People they will demand government scrutiny and regulation.
It doesn't need to be. Americans are already legally obligated to report capital gains from trading in Bitcoins, and any income measured in Bitcoins must be reported as income, converted to dollars. If people aren't reporting such details, they're actually engaging in tax evasion, and can be caught just like any other evaders.
Having gone through the investigation process myself, it turns out it's not really that big of a deal. The IRS sends you a letter with a phone number, which you can call and talk to an agent about it. Being willing to correct mistakes is a big factor in resolving the issue quickly. If someone doesn't report Bitcoins because they don't realize they have to, they can just file an amendment to their return that reflects the correct figures, and send in a check to cover the difference. The IRS will check the return again, and determine whether they believe it or not. Repeat as necessary. Again, the key is to not be hostile towards the IRS. Believe it or not, they're people, too.
In my case, I got a notice saying the IRS thought I owed a few thousand dollars. I rechecked my paperwork, found that I owed about $400, and sent in an amendment and a check. They responded saying they didn't accept a certain deduction for which I had no verifiable paperwork. I sent in a signed letter attesting that it was valid. They then sent me a notice saying that they owed me a few hundred dollars, along with a check. The numbers all finally matched, so that was the end of it.