Daylight Saving Time Change On Sunday For N. America 277
An anonymous reader writes Just a reminder that DST starts this weekend for most of North America. The majority of people feel that DST is a bad idea and want it to stop. If that was done, the main question would then probably be whether to go to Standard time year-round, or "summer" time year-round (more). For the latter, there is some evidence that it helps reduce crime (at least initially); for the former, more northern locations would have sunrise occur 08:30 or later, which would make the morning commute difficult. Some even argue that the U.S. should go to only two timezones. The DST change occurs at the end of March in the EU, so there will be a second round of confusion for trans-Atlantic conference calls then.
Except Arizona (Score:5, Funny)
Exception to the exception to the exception (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Exception to the exception to the exception (Score:5, Insightful)
The Hopi know that cutting one end off a blanket and sewing it on the other end doesn't create a longer blanket.
Re:Exception to the exception to the exception (Score:5, Funny)
except in my house in the hopi nation, which does. except for my sons room in my home, which doesnt. i dont know if his caged gerbil observes it.
Re:Exception to the exception to the exception (Score:4)
No time zones, no DST, centons (Score:5, Informative)
The easiest solution is to have one time worldwide. Essentially, use the military Zulu time (Greenwich Mean Time) for everything. Then there is no confusion about what time it is and international (and coast to coast) communication would be simplified.
And while we are at it, let's eliminate the 24 hr day and 60 minute hour which are based on Sumerian arithmetic. Let's use digital (base 10) time. The primary unit would be the Centon (1/100th of a planetary rotation) which would mean there would be 100 Centons in a day and each would be equal to about 15 of your puny Earthling minutes. Millons would then be equivalent to 1.5 minutes and the new second (.001 Centons) would be about the same as the existing second. Easy to deal with.
The issue of daylight would be dealt with locally. Shops and offices would open at whatever time they choose (just like they do now) but it would probably be the equivalent of the old 8AM or 9AM.
There. I've solved it for you, so no further discussion is necessary. :)
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Why don't we just pick one time DST or Regular...and stick with it. I think I've been reading that the change in times has been shown pretty readily that it takes a bad toll on our health. People die because of the changes even....
Nothing wrong with timezones, that make sense, but it makes no sense in this day in age (we're not all farmers anymore)..to shift the day back and forth twice a year by an hour.
I pick Summer time (Score:2)
I love the late day sun in the Summer. In Winter, dark is dark, who cares.
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Well, then, let's stick the the DST hours...and freeze it there..then summers would have late hours.
I lived in AZ and the lack of changing hours didn't affect anything poorly, in fact, it was nice to never have to twice a year have your sleep cycle all screwed up for days and have to re-adjust.
I just think in this day in age, it really makes no sense for the majority of the US to have to switch back and forth twice annually.
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What makes you think DST makes sense for farmers? Do you think the cows give a rat's ass about DST? Their schedule is linked to the moment the sun reaches it's highest point and nothing else.
No farmer was ever in favor of DST...
Re:No time zones, no DST, centons (Score:5, Insightful)
They deal with crops.
Right. And crops care what time we call it when the sun comes up, right?
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Growing up farming, we didn't care about the time on the clock, the cows had to be dealt with at the same time, the fields were dealt with when they were ready regardless of the time the clock showed. Plowing (prior to the no-till stuff), planting once it was light enough and the conditions right it didn't matter what time the clock said. Hay started about 2-3 hours after sunrise to let the dew dry off for cutting - bailing happened in the afternoons or whenever it was dry (you don't want wet or even damp
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but [DST] makes no sense in this day in age (we're not all farmers anymore)..to shift the day back and forth twice a year by an hour.
WTF have farmers got to do with it? They of all people live their own hours (I live next to a farm).
Re:No time zones, no DST, centons (Score:4, Funny)
Or just get a set of room darkening shades. Those will keep the sunlight from streaming in at any hour.
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Perhaps the few percent who get a heart attack the week of the hour change might be on the edge. But there are other effects
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If people are that close to the edge then leaving for work an hour earlier / losing an hour's sleep is only a proximate cause to their death.
The root cause is that they were leading a fucked-up life and were susceptible to a final straw. Now, whether any given individual's life is fucked up due to their own choices or not probably runs the gamut from 0 to 1 on probability distribution.
Excuse me. I know you inner city trash don't have to deal with this.
However, us drivin' folk in flyover states need to deal with the sun as it affects VISIBILITY.
See, that thing you see between the buildings and through the smog and smoke called "the sun", when it gets low (behind buildings) it reflects off the road pavement, or sometimes ice and snow, and gets in one's eyes. I know you can't see it then, but it really does this.
Going to work (in a car, not a train or a subway or a bus) during one wee
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Sounds good. Where do I sign up?
Set your Wayback Machine for the French Revolution, Paris, France, 5 October 1793. The French National Convention issued the proclamation: XI. Le jour, de minuit à minuit, est divisé en dix parties, chaque partie en dix autres, ainsi de suite jusqu’à la plus petite portion commensurable de la durée.
There are clocks in French museums with 10 hours in a day, 100 minutes in an hour and 100 seconds in a minute.
Re:No time zones, no DST, centons (Score:4, Insightful)
And I assume you'll redefine the second to be 0.864 seconds, and then redefine every physical constant and measurement that has time, force, or energy in it?
Re:No time zones, no DST, centons (Score:5, Insightful)
Does that really make it easier? Seems like it just exchanges one problem for another. You might know what "time" it is everywhere, but you don't know when they're working, sleeping, etc.
"What time is it in China? Oh right, 3pm, same as us. Wait, when do they sleep? Can I call there now?"
"What, we're having dinner at 2am? And tomorrow we travel to India for an afternoon meeting. When will that be? 9:30? WTF?"
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It's easier because when you schedule that call to China, there will be no confusion about what time is agreed upon. And it won't be dinner at 2AM. It will be dinner at 14 (Centons).
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I remember while playing World of Warcraft, you'd have a raid with 20 people, and each of them lived in 4-5 different time zones. That problem seems to have been dealt with rather well using one of two systems:
- You schedule times based on what time your server clock indicated
- In cross-server environments (especially PVP) where not everybody had the same server clock, you'd schedule events based on an offset from the present time.
So for example if it was 3:00 my time and I was doing to be back on the game
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and each of them lived in 4-5 different time zones.
There is a 'yo mamma' joke in here somewhere.
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But it's not actually easier. I say that because Zulu time is available right now for use in scheduling things across timezones.
Re:No time zones, no DST, centons (Score:5, Insightful)
Does that really make it easier? Seems like it just exchanges one problem for another. You might know what "time" it is everywhere, but you don't know when they're working, sleeping, etc."
You don't know that now.
You just assume that everyone is on your schedule.
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Does that really make it easier? Seems like it just exchanges one problem for another. You might know what "time" it is everywhere, but you don't know when they're working, sleeping, etc."
You don't know that now.
You just assume that everyone is on your schedule.
People I have known, who worked the night shift, would sometimes be tormented by acquaintances who habitually called them (and woke them up from a sound sleep) at 1100, and who would then make the feeble excuse "I forgot you were a day sleeper." One ingenious 3rd shift worker I knew dealt with the worst offenders by calling their house at 0300 and then saying "Oh, I forgot you were a night sleeper." When I worked the 3rd shift I shut off the ringer on my phone, let my answering machine handle calls, and d
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He has a pretty good idea, pedant.
His schedule, or one in line with 97% [healthday.com] of the work force?
So yeah, you do have a pretty good idea, based on the time, if people are likely to be working, awake or
No, just use Google (Score:2)
The solution is actually pretty simple: use Google. To understand what time it is in a different city, use
time in London
To schedule a multi-timezone meeting, have the leader declare, e.g., "the meeting will be at 7AM London time", and allow each participant to figure out when that will be for themselves using queries such as
time in New York when 7am in London
Our company has been using this method to organize our international meetings with participants from five distinct timezones for some years now. Works like a charm.
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Me: Ok Sally, where shall we meet?
Sally: Let's meet at the plaza at 52.
Me: How long do you think it will take?
Sally: Well, Harry likes to talk a lot so probably about 2 Cs.
Me: Great. I have another appointment at 57 so I'll have time for a quick lunch.
Sally: I've seen you wolf down a burger in 2 Mills so I don't think there will be a problem. (Laughs sweetly)
Me: Ok, but if I go to Space Burger I'll have to wait in line for a C just to get my order in.
Sally: Chill Cowboy. You have plenty of time.
Swatch Internet Time (Score:2)
It sounds like what you want is Swatch Internet Time http://www.pcpro.co.uk/computi... [pcpro.co.uk]
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The problem with DST is the way we implementing it. When you do a "Fall? Fall back!" nobody complains about having an extra hour to sleep. "Spring? Spring forward!" Sucks for everyone. They are all grumpy because they lost an hour of sleep.
So my solution would be, instead of turning clocks ahead an hour in the spring, turn them back 23 hours. That day is wasted. Gone.
Try again later. "User error. Please replace user and try again."
Re:No time zones, no DST, centons (Score:4, Interesting)
The issue of daylight would be dealt with locally.
The issue of date on the other hand becomes a whole lot more awkward. You either have the date change at 00:00 everywhere, which means that for much of the world it changes during the day (it's my birthday! but only until lunchtime!), or in the middle of the night locally, meaning that now I know what time it is anywhere in the world but no idea what date it is.
That would seem to be a harder problem than simply agreeing times in UTC, which we could do today, and people just doing the conversion to/from their local time as necessary.
And don't even get me started on people who thing that GMT is the same as UK time all year long...
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The Naked Sun (Score:3)
I am reminded how Elijah Baley was reduced to tears and asking whether the sun would be out when he landed on Solaria. The Naked Sun [wikipedia.org]
I don't find the geek's willingness to divorce himself from the natural cycle of day and night and the change of seasons particularly healthy --- nor do I share his obsession with reducing everything to base 10.
Re: No time zones, no DST, centons (Score:4, Funny)
Annnnnd you've Godwinned a thread on daylight savings time.
Nice.
Of course the GP post is ridiculous. Want your base 10 time, move back to the twelve colonies.
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We"ve been saving daylight for months here in the southern hemisphere.
Is there a postal address in Phoenix we can send the excess?
The majority? (Score:4, Interesting)
> The majority of people feel that DST is a bad idea....
Do you have a source for this?
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Those who dislike it naturally believe that most people agree with them. Those who like it also naturally believe that most people agree with them.
Either way, we get to have this discussion on slashdot at least twice a year!
Re:The majority? (Score:5, Funny)
we get to have this discussion on slashdot at least twice a year!
Good thing, too - t's the only way I remember to set my clocks.
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I don't bother changing my clocks twice a year. Some auto update, the others I just remember that they are an hour out.
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Yeah, most people don't care. Or think they don't. They still have to waste time adjusting to it, though.
Only morning people actually like it, because they get to be extra smug for the following week while their co-workers, friends, and neighbors adjust.
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Yeah, most people ....... still have to waste time adjusting to [DST], though. ...... Only morning people actually like it, because they get to be extra smug for the following week while their co-workers, friends, and neighbors adjust.
Adjust ? Perhaps it is different in the US, but in the UK I can honestly say that I have never heard anyone complain that they found it hard to "adjust". They might complain about the flaff to adjust their clocks, but that is about it.
The change only affects Sunday, and I and most people don't give a shit about the time on a Sunday morning. I just get up when I wake up. You then have a whole day to "adjust", if you need it.
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Yeah, most people don't care. Or think they don't. They still have to waste time adjusting to it, though.
Only morning people actually like it, because they get to be extra smug for the following week while their co-workers, friends, and neighbors adjust.
As someone who has spent my whole life living under a system of DST I actually quite like it. Here in the UK it means that for the winter months i do not have to wake up while it is still pitch black outside in order to get to work for 8:30. It does mean it is dark when I am driving home but who cares then? it probably would be anyway actually as with the clock change it gets dark at about 4ish.
As to getting used to it? Wow, it is only one Saturday night that is either longer or shorter, half the time I don
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The period where you're claiming to benefit form savings time, you're actually under standard time....
Re:The majority? (Score:5, Informative)
> The majority of people feel that DST is a bad idea....
Do you have a source for this?
Listening to perople bitch about it this time of year is a good one. But this also works... http://www.timeanddate.com/tim... [timeanddate.com] See "Losing U.S. popularity - According to a Rasmussen Report from 2013, only 37 % of Americans see the purpose of DST compared to 45 % the year before."
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I remember working at a semiconductor manufacturer that had a flex-time policy. We were allowed to show up before 8:00 and leave after 5:00.
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Well, thanks for coming out of that closet, now we know yet another root of this problem ;).
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> The majority of people feel that DST is a bad idea....
Do you have a source for this?
This...
Most people don't think about this. Most people are happy with the current system simply because it works.
Any new system would have it's own pros and cons and there is no guarantee that it would be any better than what we have now, just different. Also, Changing to another time system would cause a disruption in business, markets, and lost productivity in adjusting to the new system.
So, we come down to the crux of the question. Is it worth it? My thought is that, No, it's not...
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Oh really? (Score:2, Interesting)
The majority of people feel that DST is a bad idea and want it to stop.
I know some people don't like it, but a majority? I really doubt it. Citation?
Re:Oh really? (Score:5, Informative)
"Losing U.S. popularity - According to a Rasmussen Report from 2013, only 37 % of Americans see the purpose of DST compared to 45 % the year before."
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http://www.timeanddate.com/tim... [timeanddate.com] "Losing U.S. popularity - According to a Rasmussen Report from 2013, only 37 % of Americans see the purpose of DST compared to 45 % the year before."
Only 37% see the purpose. That to me doesn't clearly show how many people dislike it. You can still see the purpose and not be in favor of it. I expect that if they had phrased the question correctly, they would have more people against it, as seen in other polls.
Compromise... (Score:2)
Except Saskatchewan (Score:2)
Keep it as is (Score:3, Insightful)
DST is not a bad idea. Who the hell is going to wake up at 4:00 a.m. in June? Who is going to do anything enjoyable or productive in the wee hours of the morning when they've still got a looming commute to work?
Stop all the damned whining and enjoy the sunlight while you're actually awake.
Re:Keep it as is (Score:4, Interesting)
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farmers work on the sun, not the clock, and if every store closes an hour earlier, it is more difficult for them to get there after the farm work is done but before they close.
By that same token, if the store shuts 1 hours earlier, they are then losing their customers who are farmers. So it would behoove them to stay open an hour later and make the money the would otherwise lose.
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So, now they have to have special "summer" and "winter" hours, which they may or may not have needed to bother with without DST. Exactly what is the benefit of monkeying with everyone else's time?
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The benefit goes to the 98% of the population who aren't at risk of this alleged farm shopping problem
You did not answer the question. The question was "Exactly what is the benefit of monkeying with everyone else's time?".
You answered where the benefit goes, not what the benefit is. As far as I can see, there is no benefit.
Don't Keep it as is (Score:4, Interesting)
brain-damaged simplicity boners (Score:4, Insightful)
An hour earlier than what?
Humans have been phase-locked to the mean solar day for just over 200 out of the last 6 million years.
1883: Railroads create the first time zones [history.com]
Not even the sun is phase-locked to mean solar time. There's this little detail called the Equation of time [wikipedia.org] whose discovery dates back to the Babylonians, which governs annual variation in apparent solar time. Apparent solar time just happens to be the primary zeitgeber on circadian rhythmicity in all mammals (that I've heard of) and a great deal more.
Majority of what population? People living north of the 49th? I doubt it.
Majority of people who wish pi was equal to 3 and that the earth's orbit were circular? Almost certainly, even though I don't think these two simplicity boners are conceptually compatible.
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Humans have been phase-locked to the mean solar day for just over 200 out of the last 6 million years.
--- which is just another way of saying that humans were essentially home-bound for about 6 million years.
I farking hate the time change (Score:4, Insightful)
Internet of things (Score:3)
I try to make sure that the only clocks I have are connected to the internet other automatically adjusted sources - computer, cell phone, DVR, "atomic" radio clock, etc. If it's not connected to the internet or some other source for updating time zone data (because, not only do we need to change the time twice a year, we need to change when we do it, too, and differently depending on location), then I try to buy one that doesn't have a clock so I don't need to bother.
The only clock I still need to adjust t
Re:Internet of things (Score:4, Interesting)
My car has inbuilt sat nav and I still have to adjust the time manually twice a year. It knows exactly where I am, but can't relate that to a timezone, let alone sync time to the GPS signal. Or the digital radio. Or my phone when that's connected via bluetooth. It's weird that it seems to have multiple data sources that could potentially keep the time accurate but doesn't use any of them.
Most want it stopped? (Score:4, Funny)
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http://www.timeanddate.com/tim... [timeanddate.com]
"Losing U.S. popularity - According to a Rasmussen Report from 2013, only 37 % of Americans see the purpose of DST compared to 45 % the year before."
Classic Slow News Day article or what? (Score:2)
Is this why we come to Slashdot? Because we don't know what ntp is, or how it works, so we don't really have to think about it a whole lot? I can't see how this qualifies as news for nerds. What a waste of a front-page article.
Re:Classic Slow News Day article or what? (Score:4)
Except that ntp doesn't handle time zones at all. What ntp does is synchronizing clocks to UTC, the operating system then adds a local offset. While distributing whatever changes to tzdata your politicians in their wisdom did this year (or worse, this week) is an interesting problem, it has nothing in common with ntp.
Meaningless debate (Score:2)
Whatever system people use to measure the day, it makes no difference to when the sun rises or sets, or passes its meridian, for that matter. All such schemes are essentially arbitrary, the only important factor being whether a scheme can identify a point in time in some convenient and mutually intelligible way.
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And changing our entire frame of reference twice a year in some places at vaguely similar but not the same dates, to me does not meet that test.
We have things called computers and calendars these days with which we could adjust the running hours of our businesses, schools, etc, *if necessary* to the seasons.
My local graveyard manages it.
I run as much as possible on UTC.
Rgds
Damon
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Which is Irrelevant (Score:3)
It doesn't matter which we go with, let's just pick one and stick with it year round. The natural cycles make it so that sunrise and sunset change dramatically from December to June. They can't legislate away the tilt of the Earth so let's start by accepting nature and science and do away with this nonsense of changing the clocks.
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I suspect a large part of this trend is due to an ever increasing population in the southern part of the US (from CA to FL, not just "the south") as the seasonal variaiton on length of day light is less the closer to the equator one lives, making it a more and more trivial topic.
how about something more radical (Score:2)
permanently spring 3 hours ahead
so we wake up and have dismal darkness in the morning (6AM=3AM). lunch means the sun came up just an hour or two ago (12PM=9AM)
but here's the winning point: when we go home (6PM=3PM) we have glorious sunlight all evening with our friends and family
until we go to sleep at midnight (12AM=9PM), the sun setting with us
but really, i just wish the usa would finally go metric like the rest of the modern fucking world
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The rest of the world uses metric time?
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sorry:
metric, as in another topic
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Thank you! Because No Way would we ever be able to use metric measurements in Arizona. Just because they're special. Probably the most metric thing in the state is the London Bridge [wikipedia.org].
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Carter started the transition to metric
fucking douchebag Reagan killed it, feeding into braindead xenophobe's reasoning, oh the great American hero
DST should pay interest! (Score:2)
Time Zones and the Northeast US (Score:2)
We are so far east in the Eastern time zone that when we go to Standard Time, we get to see no sun whatsoever in the winter if you work a daytime job.
We really should be in the Atlantic time zone, along with the Maritime Provinces but that makes too much sense.
--
BMO
Why isn't this a Poll question? (Score:2)
I'd prefer 'DST' all year 'round. A little extra daylight at the end of the day is a good thing.
Year long DST (Score:2)
I agree with the article proposing a year long DST. I really look forward to setting my clock an hour ahead and getting an extra hour of daylight in the afternoon. I love the really late sunsets in summer. I'm not a morning person, and the dark mornings don't have much of an effect on my emotional state. And really, even without DST in the winter, most off us in the midwest wake up and go to work in the dark. Sunrise is just really late, and it sucks coming back home in the dark.
Scrapping DST worldwide for 24 time zones (Score:2)
However, if we scrapped DST (along with 15 or 30 minute offsets), we would only have 24 time zones - one for each hour! This is a reduction from the hundreds [unicode.org] we currently have in use around the world. Each location would simply be a
I'd rather work nights, not days (Score:2)
DST assumes you're working outside and will have some benefit from the sunlight. I'm up roughly 16 out of every 24 hours, even though the sunlight here varies from 4,5 hours to 20.5 hours of the day. What it usually means is that in the winter I work through all the natural light hours in the office during the day and stay up during the pitch dark hours of the evening in artificial light. Why? I'd much rather work in artificial light at the office and have the opportunity to choose between being in or out d
No reason in the modern world (Score:2)
Maybe it made sense last century, but not anymore.
With modern efficient lighting (CFL and LED) there is no significant 'savings' of electricity.
Hours of work are no longer limited to 8:30a to 4:30p
I work night shift you insensitive clods
Re:I don't generally complain about articles... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not everything in the universe is specifically for you.
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I'm not saying everything should be for me, but what more is there to say about DST, even in relation to IT issues? It's just the same stuff we've been talking about - on Slashdot and elsewhere - forever. Yes, it makes things inconvenient, and yes some people don't like it and want to get rid of it. We'll have the people railing against it while slightly fewer say "actually I kind of like it", and some guys in the corner will say "we should just use GMT for everything" and it'll all happen again - right on
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It's a shame that GP got modded up instead of you.
If Slashdot is to remain interesting, it needs to lay off retarded 'news' like this and keep providing proper news. I saw the headline and the phrase that came to mind was: "Jesus Christ, what the fuck, Slashdot. You're not even trying anymore."
The sad part is as you described: The same arguments. Every year. I know we all like redundancy, but I'm pretty sure the DST-discussion doesn't need annual copies.
Re:I don't generally complain about articles... (Score:5, Insightful)
Considering how important time is for a computer and people writing code for them, the hassle of dealing with timezones, daylight savings time, and even the occasional leap second is something that most programmers need to know to varying degrees at some point. If you don't care about hour-scale precision, I suppose it won't matter much, but if you do, it's quite a twisty maze to figure out what the time would have been called locally in a particular year and location. That's why there are whole libraries written to deal with it.
For example, it was a challenge for programmers when the rules for DST switchover changed a few years ago (2007). Plenty of code was badly written to handle it because the rules were hard-coded. I still have a few old, impossible-to-update machines around that are always off by an hour 4 times a year unless manually set. Those machines don't know about the new DST switchover date, so they ignore it in spring, then they switch on the date of the old DST switchover (manually reset again), and then the whole thing happens again in the fall the other way around.
It's a lesson in bad coding and how to do it wrong, and every time the rules change it's yet another annoyance, which is why some people are saying "screw the whole thing". Which will be another thing to change in the code :-(
If we ever do invent time travel, I figure it's going to be routine for people to show up from the future for important historical events and discover they're an hour off.
Time travel (Score:2)
And image that you have the right location, and you discover upon arrival that you missed Planet Earth some 100,000 km in its orbit around the sun and you see it around the size of a fist at an arm's length as you suffocate...
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Not always. My alarm clock doesn't. The time displays in my kitchen don't. The clock in my car doesn't. Even some software doesn't. Ever used an in-house corporate scheduling app that has some piece of shit homebrew datetime library and doesn't properly account for DST when sending out meeting invites? I have, it causes problems. I've seen mail servers block all logins because the local clock didn't adjust for DST and the one-hour difference in times is triggering clock skew errors for everyone.
Hell, my and
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Point well made! ...still, it shouldn't be so difficult to set the non-ntp devices, using the ntp devices as a reference, (especially when bugs appear, as happens during these seasonal changes). And even without paying a while lot of attention, you still can kind of expect bugs to happen about this time in the season.
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I think DST is a crime against nature
This. I think the current idea of time zones is somewhat OK to keep things convenient, but the reference should always be solar time, where 12 at noon means the sun at its highest point. If someone has a better way of defining time, I'm all ears, but arbitrarily moving/renaming things around is no way to standardize them. In fact, we might as well rename current hours as foo, bar, quux, etc. to indicate their complete detachment from nature, logic and math. Physical units strive for independent, natural de
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You're a few years too late for that. You shoulda asked him back when he was a senator, and could actually, you know, pass laws.
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You're a few years too late for that. You shoulda asked him back when he was a senator, and could actually, you know, pass laws.
He wasn't interested in passing laws back then. He hardly ever showed up to vote. He had no interested in performing the duty he was elected to do and spent all of his time trying to become president.
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Maybe. I don't know, I don't worry too much about what the president or any random senator does, as long as they don't have much affect on my day-to-day life. So far Obama hasn't, and didn't when he was a senator either.