Elon Musk Suggests Tesla Model 3 Won't Get Free Supercharger Use (theverge.com) 228
An anonymous reader writes from a report via The Verge: In response to a question about how the company would handle an influx of Model 3s to its Supercharging stations, which are currently offered as a free service to Tesla customers, Elon Musk said at Tesla's annual shareholder's conference in Mountain View, California, "it will not be free long distance for life unless you purchase that package." He did not specify what the "package" contained, nor did he say how much it would cost as an add-on with the purchase of a Model 3. His full quote reads: "Obviously, [free Supercharging] fundamentally has a cost. [...] The obvious thing to do is decouple that from the cost of the Model 3. So it will still be very cheap, and far cheaper than gasoline, to drive long-distance with the Model 3, but it will not be free long distance for life unless you purchase that package. I wish we could, but in order to achieve the economics, it has to be something like that." Tesla did recently announce their Gigafactory Grand Opening will be held on July 29, even if it isn't scheduled to begin production on lithium ion cells until next year.
More context (Score:5, Insightful)
From the article:
"Elon Musk addressed a question from a young Model S P85D owner about how the company would handle an influx of Model 3s to its Supercharging stations"
So basically some rich guy wanted to know if he had to share his charging station with the unwashed lower classes.
Re:More context (Score:5, Funny)
Sheesh, that's a bit harsh. Don't you think? I mean, it's not like they're driving '93 Escort wagons.
Re:More context (Score:5, Funny)
Sheesh, that's a bit harsh. Don't you think? I mean, it's not like they're driving '93 Escort wagons.
Are you my daughter in disguise? She's been bugging me to get the Escort washed for quite some time now...
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I don't have a car, but when I did the conversation used to go like this.
"How long is it since your car was washed?"
"Dunno. When did it last rain?"
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Sheesh, that's a bit harsh. Don't you think? I mean, it's not like they're driving '93 Escort wagons.
There are many levels of class and states of cleanliness and, as recent US politics has shown, many more combinations.
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And the answer was, sure, but THEY (the unwashed poor masses who buy the Model 3) will have to pay for it, while you (the rich washed) will still get yours for free. But it's going to be hard to unset the precedent set by Tesla and getting access to free super charging. It's expected now, buy a Tesla and get instant access to all this infrastructure so you can actually go someplace in that expensive set of wheels. (Not that you can actually GO anyplace really interesting on this infrastructure last time I
Re:More context (Score:4, Insightful)
"for free" meaning, you paid a hell of a lot more for your vehicle and part of that went for supercharger use.
Funny use of "for free", but okay.
Me, I'm looking forward to my "not for 'free'" electricity consuming Tesla, if they can just get them built. Breath-holding does not seem to be called for here.
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Glad the useful range of less than 180 miles works for you. It doesn't for me.
I know a guy who owns a Leaf that sits in his garage because the 50 mile round trip to work is a bit too risky even though the EPA says it goes 75 miles/charge.
Re:More context (Score:4, Interesting)
I know a guy who owns a Leaf that sits in his garage because the 50 mile round trip to work is a bit too risky
Many employers offer recharging outlets at work, so maybe he should look into that. In fact, maybe he should have looked into that before he bought the car.
Re:More context (Score:4, Informative)
When he purchased the vehicle, he worked about 5 miles from home but was recently forced to change jobs. When he changed employers he asked that question and the new employer indicated they intended to provide chargers at the new facility. They didn't, even though they where shown on the plans. So, he's kind of stuck, not having much luck in his attempts to sell it, not being able to afford to trade and not interested in making too much of an issue out of it because he likes the new job.
But my point is that range issues are real and a significant problem for some. All what you are used to I suppose. We used to be limited to about 40 miles in a stage coach on a good day. Now folks routinely do that much distance while drinking their morning cup of Joe fussing about how bad the traffic is because the speed is under 50 MPH..
Re: More context (Score:2)
Indeed. I wish we could drop the term "range anxiety" from our vocabulary - it sounds too much like blaming the user. Often (not always) the problem is range rather than anxiety.
That being said, 50 miles round trip should be perfectly possible in good conditions, but you if things go wrong, you would need a charging point along the way.
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But my point is that range issues are real and a significant problem for some.
Were.
You're talking about an old model of car with a range less than half of the current model, and that's not even talking about Telsas which across the board have a higher range than the Leaf.
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I own a Leaf and I do 50 mile round trips in the winter with the heater on quite regularly, no problem at all. In fact mine is normally 62 miles, most of it motorway. I typically arrive with 15-25% remaining, depending on conditions.
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Most of those have some moron in a Giant SUV parked in front of it. I just wish more businesses would tow and impound those stupid giant wastes of space that park where they dont belong.
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Not to a fast charger. Headbolt heater isn't going to have that connection, and given the DRM apparently present, it's not going to get juice anyhow.I figure people with SUVs are like the asshole rednecks with pickups set up to "roll coal" and they deserve as much property damage as random passerby can inflict when they intentionally block chargers like that
And a solid punch to the jaw with a wrench, if they happen to be present.
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Not to a fast charger.
Employers don't offer fast chargers. Just regular slow chargers. The employee is going to be there all day, so it doesn't matter if it takes a few hours to charge up for the ride home.
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He doesn't think he can do 50 miles on a single charge in a LEAF? The battery must be desperately sick for that to be the case. My 2015 doesn't even have the 30kWh battery and it can easily do 84 miles at highway speeds even with hills and stuff. 50 miles is no trouble at all even if I turn off all the energy saving stuff. Even if I only charge to 80% rather than all the way to 100% it will still easily do 67 miles. The EPA 75 miles a charge is pretty pessimistic in reality and is based on the average betwe
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You forgot to subtract the EV-hate constant from all your numbers. Fail.
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I know a guy who owns a Leaf that sits in his garage because the 50 mile round trip to work is a bit too risky even though the EPA says it goes 75 miles/charge.
I know a guy who doesn't fly in a plane because he's scared of crashing.
I also know a guy who on a daily bases has to tow huge loads and he bought a tiny little Twingo.
So yes stupid people are everywhere. On a related note, the current model leaf gets 180 miles/charge. Maybe he should trade up if he's not using his car because he bought the wrong one.
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What I will look forward to is the influx of "make your 3 look like an S to the charging station" adapters that will flood ebay. Fuck you rich asshole, you can wait for that unwashed poor person to use the charger.
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What I will look forward to is the influx of "make your 3 look like an S to the charging station" adapters that will flood ebay. Fuck you rich asshole, you can wait for that unwashed poor person to use the charger.
Yea, you know it won't take long to break that DRM code.... Can we say a quick flash upgrade to your Model 3's firmware and vola, free motion forever.
Re: More context (Score:2)
I can't say for sure, but I'd be very surprised if each tesla doesn't provide its serial number to the supercharger when it is plugged in, for logging purposes. If they were smart, they'd add in some cryptographic authentication as well, specifically to prevent any shenanigans.
So Model 3 owners will likely be able to roll up to any supercharger and plug in as usual, and their credit card and will be charged accordingly. What they won't be able to do is pretend they are model S owners.
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Face it, the charging stations where build only to answer the basic objection to how far can you go on a charge in that neat electric car of yours.
Well.. yes? Same as a petrol station? You sound like it is controversial or a bad thing, for some reason?
The difference is that an electric car can also refuel (overnight) anywhere there is a power outlet, such as your own house. The "public refuelling stations" only need to cater for the 5% of refuelling that happens on long distance road trips.
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Well (and I say this as someone who lives within walking distance of his office and actually sold his car a year ago...) My parents live on the opposite coast of South Florida from me. Just long enough for a 200 mile charge to not be good for a round trip. Charging overnight isn't an option, because I have ZERO intention of staying overnight there. That pretty much eliminates the Tesla from my options when I eventually buy a new vehicle.
As a commuter vehicle, it could work, even if I lived much farther fro
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And the answer was, sure, but THEY (the unwashed poor masses who buy the Model 3) will have to pay for it, while you (the rich washed) will still get yours for free.
Another way of looking at it would be:
Sure, but THEY (the unwashed poor masses who buy the Model 3) will have the option of not paying for Supercharger access, while you (the rich washed) will still have to pay for access regardless if you ever intend on using it.
I think this is a much more accurate statement.
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At 45 mph on a calm day with no wind and flat roads and 50-80F ambient temperature, sure.
Re:More context (Score:5, Interesting)
So basically some rich guy wanted to know if he had to share his charging station with the unwashed lower classes.
To be fair, it is a genuine concern. It takes me about 4 minutes to fill my car.
In the last decade, I've had to wait for a pump only a couple times, and the longest wait was only a couple cars. (Maybe 10 minutes).
If the new model is cheaper and a hit, demand for charging will rapidly outstrip supply.
It takes an hour to charge a Tesla at a superstation. Its only going to take a small surge in electric vehicle to overwhelm a stations capacity. Get just 2-3 cars in front of you, and there goes half a DAY.
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Re:More context (Score:5, Interesting)
If you're going for long-distance, the optimal strategy is to charge for 30 min to get to ~70% then drive to the next charging station. The charging rate for Li-Ion gets significantly slower as you approach 100%. You'll start out at around 120-130 KW and fall down to about 50 KW at 80%.
It wasn't the case ~2 years ago but nowadays, the maximum distance between any 2 charging stations is about ~150 miles. So you should have plenty of charge after 30 min to get to the next station even if you drive like a maniac.
Re:More context (Score:4)
"...the maximum distance between any 2 charging stations is about ~150 miles."
Uh, no. Take a look at North and South Dakota, Montana, or a lot of other states out West. Also, a lot of interstate routes lack nearby Supercharger stations, and you'd have to take a significant detour to be able to quickly charge a Tesla. The Supercharger network still needs more stations. It's a lot better than Mary Barra (of GM)'s recent commentary to the effect that they wouldn't support infrastructure unless it helped everybody. Um, hello, you're trying to entice people to buy your Chevrolet Bolt with an iffy refueling network. The least you can do is support improving that iffy refueling network.
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If no one is in front of you, perhaps... what if 3 people are in front of you?
Sell 500,000 of these things and suddenly you'll need 20 times the locations to charge.
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If no one is in front of you, perhaps... what if 3 people are in front of you?
I have only once needed to wait at a supercharger, and then only for a few minutes. Waiting will be less of a problem as more people drive Teslas, because the demand will be more predictable over a larger number of cars, and Tesla will be installing a lot more superchargers.
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That only makes sense if Tesla doesn't invest in further charging locations.
Which, from everything seen so far and from where it is all going is not gonna happen.
When your business revolves around selling batteries on wheels and plunking down chargers for those batteries everywhere in order to (pre)sell electricity - you're not in the car business, you're in electricity distribution business.
They are already franchising "destination charging" and the car's system already informs you of nearest charging spot
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"Like other rapid charging technologies, the Tesla Supercharger starts to ramp down its power delivery when the car reaches sixty percent full or so, achieving an 80 per cent charge in around 45 minutes. The rate of charge then dramatically slows down for the final 20 percent, which occurs some 115 minutes after plugging in. It's worth noting however, that after 60 minutes of being plugged in, the car was more than 90 per cent full, highlighting dramatically why it's not worth waiting around for that final
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It's simply traveling using the electric equivalent of a gas station as a landmark. Nothing difficult about this, at all.
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using a Supercharger will suck on peak days, e.g. the day before Thanksgiving, because there will be 5 cars in front of you, all of whom just need a 30 minute charge.
This is why I'm happy with them making it a fixed cost to enable, like the Model S 60 was, but not too keen on pay per use. Many people will only want to use them a few times a year, and that will be times such as you described - peak travelling periods. If they are paying per use then they are contributing less than $100/year to the construction of new supercharger stations. If it is a fixed higher upfront charge, then that provides Tesla will an influx of capital to build out the network of charging lo
Re:More context (Score:5, Insightful)
Most superchargers are next to restaurants and other amenities. Out of all of the superchargers I've visited I think I only went to a McDonalds once. One was next to a nice brew pub, several at shopping malls, a couple at Black Bear diners. Where possible they seem to try to locate them where there is a variety of places to eat and/or shop. I find it's often nice to stop at places other than McDonalds. For example, I went across the street from the one in Folsom, CA to City Burger where they have awesome burgers, much better than anything you'd get at McDonalds/Burger King, etc. The one in Rockland, CA is right near a combination bar/restaraunt/theater where you can eat your dinner while watching a movie. There's also a mall nearby as well. The one in Truckee, CA is near some restaurants and a 24/hour Safeway. I've stopped there a couple of times to make a pit stop and pick up a couple six packs on my way to Reno and pick up over 50 miles of range even though I don't need the charge.
I think it makes sense to charge for their use with the model 3. The Superchargers are designed for long distance travel, not so much for people wanting to get a free charge. It's been a problem at some chargers where the locals charge there rather than charging at home or work and they clog them up. I read about one where there's a person who frequently parks their car at a supercharger and leaves it hooked up overnight (which is considered extremely rude).
I think the best thing Tesla could do would be to require an account to use them and charge a bit more than it would cost to charge at home to encourage people to do most charging at home or work. Even though it's free for me since I have a P85 (over 41K miles on it), I wouldn't mind all that much if it wasn't free since that would help encourage people not to clog it up instead of charging at home.
There's a Supercharger just off the freeway along the route between my house and where I work but I only use it rarely, only if I'm low and need to travel a long distance. It's just not worth my time to stop there (and that's one of the few where there's not much around it since it's at the Tesla factory). It's just more convenient and cost effective to charge at home since it takes me 5 seconds to plug in at night and 5 seconds to unplug in the morning with no waiting. If I need a full charge at home it takes roughly 5 1/2 hours at 80 amps, something that's easily done overnight. Since my typical charge is a fraction of that I usually lower the current to 40A so there's less loss and let it charge a couple hours overnight when the rates are the lowest.
Charging at home is pretty cheap, even though the area I live in has some of the most expensive electricity in the nation. I have a separate meter for my car and I pay around $50/month and drive around 1000 miles/month. $50/1000 miles is quite cheap considering the size of the car.
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Actually Tesla should start getting the local businesses to start subsidizing the superchargers. The businesses would get advertising at the supercharger, limited to one or two businesses, and then could offer a promotion to the driver if they are currently getting a charge. It would drive traffic to the businesses throughout the day and help pay for the superchargers (or maybe the electricity for them at least).
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So basically some rich guy wanted to know if he had to share his charging station with the unwashed lower classes.
To be fair, it is a genuine concern. It takes me about 4 minutes to fill my car.
In the last decade, I've had to wait for a pump only a couple times, and the longest wait was only a couple cars. (Maybe 10 minutes).
If the new model is cheaper and a hit, demand for charging will rapidly outstrip supply.
It takes an hour to charge a Tesla at a superstation. Its only going to take a small surge in electric vehicle to overwhelm a stations capacity. Get just 2-3 cars in front of you, and there goes half a DAY.
They just need to monitor the batteries (# of charges, ser. #, etc.) and then have a station that swaps the discharged battery with a charged one of similar age and condition. Then they could be charging whole racks of batteries all day. Most likely have a proprietary mount from below the car so you drive in like an oil change station and sit while they do the swap. Premium members would always get the youngest batteries, a latte, windshield washed, etc..
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They did:
https://www.teslamotors.com/en... [teslamotors.com]
http://www.roadandtrack.com/ne... [roadandtrack.com]
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It takes an hour to charge a Tesla at a superstation
What's a supercharger? Owners of electric vehicles all over the world who get into their fully charged cars every morning wish to know!
There's a fundamental difference in economics. While you're right that demand will increase it should also be noted how that demand compares to a regular car. I live in a country with 15000 Model S Teslas and only 2 superchargers. I've yet to see a car "filling up" at either of them. That said I have seen hundreds of Teslas plugged into walls all over the country, at the air
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at the airport, in shopping malls, in the street, in the Surburbs, even my local sports hall has a power outlet and a preferred parking spot for EVs.
And all of these are going to be woefully inadequate unless we see some major rollouts made within the next few years.
And while this model has been a lot of fun for the early adopters, the shopping malls, airports, sports bars etc aren't going to be keen on supplying the entire urban vehicle fleet free electricity either. My shopping local shopping mall has upwards of 5,000 parking spots. And maybe 10 of those are powered for EVs. Right now it amounts to running a few space heaters for good PR.
What happens
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uses the same amount of power as leaving a mid sized window air conditioner running 24/7.
aka the most power hungry appliance in the entire house?
"For level 1 charging when plugged into regular 120VAC outlet, a lot of cars (like the Chevy Volt) will limit to 12A which is 1.4 kW"
https://m.reddit.com/r/askscie... [reddit.com]
I realize the cite is reddit... feel free to correct me if its wrong.
1.4kW x 5000 parking spots = 7MW
vs 1MW baseline to run a mall, per your claim
Unless my math is wrong? That appears to be a pretty substantial increase... even if half the spots were empty. It would still be a major increase and expense for the electricity. Nevermind the significant electrical upgrades that would surely be required, not to mention the
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So we come to an agreement in a round about way... "charging at airports, shopping malls, and sports bars" ISN'T going to be a solution. These places aren't going to do it at scale.
So, yes, 100 spots is plenty for a typical mall
vs
The only really limiting factor in EV adoption is the lack of charging stations at places of employment.
You do realize of course that the average mall employs plenty more than 100 people?
Those 5 spots next to the handicapped spots are PR fluff and pocket change. Will the mall even spring for electrified parking for the people who work there? Doubtful, they'll do even that on their dime... that's going to be a half a MW or so.
Empl
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People will typically *NOT* be charging at places like the mall
That's new to both me and my local mall which has a note saying they are putting in an additional 20 charging stations by the end of the year due to "popular demand".
And it's not a big American style mall either.
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And all of these are going to be woefully inadequate unless we see some major rollouts made within the next few years.
Funny you should say that. It's almost like not every country in the world is resting on their laurels.
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The only time you should need the supercharger is on a road trip.. the rest of the time top it off at home while you sleep. You know.. that thing you can't do with a gas powered car. Holiday weekends may get ugly but your average road top shouldn't be an issue.
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Maybe. To charge an 85kW Tesla battery is going to run you $10 to $20 in electricity depending where you live. The EV owners I've encountered seem to maximize their use of "free" charging stations around town rather than pay for there own (already very inexpensive) "fuel", and frankly they seem pretty entitled about the whole thing too.
They don't pay for gas (which is fine of course). They don't pay fuel taxes to support infrastructure -- which is not fine. And it seems a lot of them don't think they should
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It's a reasonable concern though. As fast as they are building them they can't keep up with current sales. People are asshats when something is free.
A lot of EV owners support reasonable charging for charging because it discourages people just wanting a couple of quid's worth of electricity for nowt, and blocking people who need it to get home.
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Just like the 60kw S models it will probably be a $2500 extra cost option.
http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/enable-supercharging
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It has nothing to do with being rich. The problem is that the Superchargers are not really designed to handle everybody's daily charging. They're designed to facilitate long distance travel. There's a limited number of charging spaces and they're not cheap to build. As it is, there's already a problem at some charging locations with people doing their charging at the supercharger rather than at home. There's one supercharger I read about where one of the locals parks his car there every night and leaves it
How is this news? (Score:3)
Isn't this specified in the options when you pre-order a model 3? Why is this news?
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Because Slashdot spins the ad-counter while we debate whether or not Musk is an asshole.
How Is This a Surprise? (Score:5, Insightful)
Lower margins on a mass-market vehicle means there isn't enough money to pay the electrical bill for the lifetime of the vehicle.
Are people really getting worked up over basic and obvious economic decisions?
I know two people who own Teslas, and both of them bought the in-home charger regardless of the availability of "free" charging. Topping up costs way less than a tank of gas, and they don't feel like wasting time at the station.
The only reason Tesla could offer free charging in the first place is because the electricity costs so much less than gasoline. Their "free" fillup simply was not a large value to begin with---except for the convenience it offered on long trips.
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Lower margins on a mass-market vehicle means there isn't enough money to pay the electrical bill for the lifetime of the vehicle.
Are people really getting worked up over basic and obvious economic decisions?
I know two people who own Teslas, and both of them bought the in-home charger regardless of the availability of "free" charging. Topping up costs way less than a tank of gas, and they don't feel like wasting time at the station.
The only reason Tesla could offer free charging in the first place is because the electricity costs so much less than gasoline. Their "free" fillup simply was not a large value to begin with---except for the convenience it offered on long trips.
It was meant primarily to be free charging for trips when yo can't charge at home; although some Tesla owners use it as a regular charging station. That works while the concentration of Teslas is low so charging stations tend to be available. Put a significant number of Model 3's on the road and all of a sudden the free charging becomes "feee if space is available" and if Model 3 owners buy the package they no doubt will feel they are entitled to use them on a regal basis; the end result will be a lot of an
Energy transfer (Score:2)
A super charger is somewhere north of 400 volts at around 400 amps. That's 4x what a typical house service can draw (for the *entire* house) and it still takes an hour.
The amount of energy you transfer in 4 minutes at a gas pump is staggering. If you could charge an electric vehicle that fast, I wouldn't want to be anywhere that charging system. You'd be at around 5kv at 400A. (Or the conductors would be as big as your leg to get the voltage down) If anything goes wrong, Think flesh vaporizing arcing explos
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Think flesh vaporizing arcing explosions -- not my idea of fun.
Yeah, that sounds way worse that flesh vaporizing gasoline explosions...
https://www.google.com/#q=gas+... [google.com]
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The supercharger charges at a maximum rate of ~400V and 300A (~120KW). The reason it takes an hour is because that rate slows down significantly as you approach 100%. Limitations on the Li-Ion battery and all.
At full 120KW, it'd take exactly 30 min to fill up a 60KWh battery. And 45 min to fill up a 90KWh battery.
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They are terms of art.
If Elon Musk said he was going to put a "turbocharger" on his new Tesla model, people would say, "What the fuck, nerd?" Well, for those of us who are into the automotive arts, "supercharger" is the same thing. When I tell someone that I have owned a 1969 Nova with a supercharger, I don't want them thinking that I had some kind of glorified wall plug installed on some of the greatest Detroit iron that ever t
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"Turbo" might be made up sometimes, but not always: "turbocharged" means "charged by a turbine". You know, as in, "turbomachinery."
I'll give you "supercharger" though - I've not looked into the history of it, but as it isn't powered by a turbine it rightly doesn't have the "turbo-" prefix. I guess they just wanted something to put in front of "charged," and "super" makes sense because it gets a charge greater than it would get without the machine, and "super" is a prefix that means "higher" or "greater".
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They are named differently because the way they take off power to compress the air is different - turbochargers use a turbine driven by the exhaust gasses from the engine, while superchargers are driven by the drive train. Turbochargers are preferred in motor sports because they don't use energy intended for driving the wheels.
They are not, as suggested by a grand parent post, just a marketing term - they are very specific terms used to describe different ways of compressing air in engines.
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automotive arts
I'm picturing a hillbilly sipping a latte.
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You know me!
Gosh, golly! (Score:2)
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How is Elon Musk any less of a con artist than Elizabeth Holmes? I fail to see a difference.
Oh come on. The problem here is that Tesla set up the expectation that if you buy one of their cars, you got free access to these charging stations. Now everybody expects this from Tesla because it was baked into the price of the car and Tesla wasn't really out to make a profit anyway. Well, now Tesla wants to become profitable so things will have to change and their cars will have to be competitively priced so some of their cost drivers need to be addressed.
It's obvious that Tesla *cannot* continue suc
Re:Solar panels? (Score:4, Funny)
Just put solar panels all over the car body. Problem solved, once and for all.
Sure, for trips to the mailbox and back.
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Do some math.
Insolation at the surface is about 1 kw / m^2 in perfect conditions. A good solar panel might be 20% efficient, so 200W/m^2 = 0.2 kW/m^2. Tesla battery = 60 kWh. 60 / 0.2 = 300 hours to charge the battery, per square meter of solar panel in absolutely optimal, cloudless conditions.
Also, for comparison, 1 HP = 745W.
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http://i.imgur.com/gHcGr.jpg [imgur.com]
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Typical panels are about 25% efficient, and there is about 12 square meters of exposed body area on a decent mid-sized sedan. Assuming a decent angle to the sun, you can get almost 3kWh but are at best likely to get ~2.3kWh (remember, one side is most likely not going to be facing the sun directly at all and parts of others at extreme angles, though incidental light from surrounding terrain might be enough for it to get some usable energy, otherwise we're looking at a rough total of 4kWh if all sides were e
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Yea, those Mars rovers are *really* speedy using that approach. Took one of them more than a decade to drive about 26 miles...
I'm sure you realize this, but there simply isn't enough energy from the sun hitting your car to do much traveling with. You might be able to keep the battery topped off or a bit more using the energy hitting the car, but you certainly are NOT going to be driving around town on a sunny day on the energy you collect.
Facepalm (Score:5, Informative)
Figure you use the commercial 150 Watt/m^2 panels, and that's a peak generating capacity of 750 Watts. Capacity factor for solar in the U.S. is about 0.145 (this accounts for angle of the sun, weather, etc.). So (0.75 kW) * (0.145) * (24 hours) = 2.61 kWh. In other words, if you left your solar panel-covered Tesla S parked outside for a typical continental U.S. day, it would generate 2.61 kWh.
Charging efficiency of the Tesla battery is about 80% [futurepundit.com]. So only about 2.09 kWh actually makes it into the battery (the rest heats up the battery and charger).
The best EPA-rated Tesla S [fueleconomy.gov] uses 33 kWh/100 miles. So leaving your PV-encrusted Tesla parked out in the sun all day will charge the battery enough to move you 6.3 miles.
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EPA fuel economy already includes charging losses. It is "wall to wheels".
So 7.9 miles/ Per day. If you leave the car in the sun all day. Less in the winter.
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So leaving your PV-encrusted Tesla parked out in the sun all day will charge the battery enough to move you 6.3 miles.
And who wants to leave their $100K car out in the sun all day? Even if you could get 30-40 miles worth of charge out of it, it would clearly not be worth the weathering. Better to park the car in a garage and cover the roof with solar panels.
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Cut your charging rate in 1/2 because they are not pointing at the sun. off axis loses on solar panels are 50% on average for a surface like a car where a good 20% will be pointing away from the sun and 50% will be pointing straight up and not at the sun. and god help you if there is ANY shadow, even a single 1cm wide line will drop charging rates DRAMATICALLY as any shadow causes massive loss to power for all the panels to one side of it even if they are in the sun.
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Just put solar panels all over the car body. Problem solved, once and for all.
Dude! Make a WINDMILL out of solar panels and mount it on the roof!
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You can actually power a car with a windmill (well, very lightweight test equipment) given a brisk headwind. Fun with physics.
Re:Solar panels? (Score:4, Insightful)
I've argued with a number of people on the Tesla forums on how stupid this is.
Covering every horizontal surface other than the windows on a car would be frightfully expensive and it would add more weight. The body under the cells would need to be more rigid to prevent the cells from cracking, plus since cars are rarely perfectly flat there would have to be an expensive cover over the cells. It would have to stand up to rocks and other things as well as the flexing a car normally has while driving. If you think denting a normal hood is expensive, imagine how expensive it would be if it were covered with solar?
It's far better to instead install solar on your roof rather than the very limited return one would get with solar added to a car.
I know someone with a Fisker Karma which does have solar on the roof. From what I have read it costs around $5000 to add the solar to the roof of the Karma for a very limited rate of return. It's not going to be as efficient as a normal solar panel since it will not be aimed towards the sun, plus it needs a much thicker coating over the panels in order to protect them. Additionally, it adds weight to the car as well as the extra support for those panels to prevent cracking or damage from various things encountered while driving. Someone ran the numbers and figured out the rate of return is around 500 years until the panel pays for itself. It barely adds anything to the range of the car and is mostly used to keep the 12v battery topped off and to help cool the interior. It's also going to be expensive since you want to try and keep the solar panels from getting too hot. The solar panels on my house are quite light with plenty of air circulation under them. They're also perfectly flat and aimed at the sun so they're a lot more efficient and a lot cheaper.
For my Tesla I much prefer having the panoramic roof where I can just open it a bit to help keep the car cool. On top of that, the panoramic roof adds additional head room and it's nice to open when the weather is nice. The glass used is amazing in that it does not let much heat into or out of the car.
Solar on the roof of a car might generate 100 watts. It would take around 3 hours of sun to add one mile of range since my car (with my driving and sticky tires) typically takes almost 300Wh/mile.
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>"You'll be stopping a[t] filling stations, getting gas, etc. just like everyone else.. the only real difference will be the type of energy being pumped in.."
Well, no, not really. With my current car, a fillup takes about 4 minutes and then I have another 380 mile range. Electrically, I would have to wait potentially an hour or more and then have something like a 200 mile range.
Sure, it will get faster and more range, but that could take many years and it might never be as convenient as gas for trips.
Re:"Gas" = Electrons (Score:4, Insightful)
To be useful electric cars REQUIRE home charging.
Or work charging. Or anywhere you can run a 2cm cable to. If every car took 20 min to "refuel" but a refueling station had the footprint of the head-on space between 2 parking spaces instead of massive underground storage tanks I'm sure someone could figure out how to avoid grinding to a halt.
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>"Home charging or battery swap charging stations. It's not hard."
Yes it is.
Home charging is *SLOW*. Very, very, very slow. For a high-range EV at 110V/20A takes many days, 220V/60A takes probably a full day from 0% to full. Besides, this won't help with long trips because the assumption is that for a long trips you leave fully charged.
Swapping batteries is nowhere near "not hard". There is no standard for that. Battery technology changes often. Batteries are often inaccessible or complex to remove
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There is ONE significant difference, no TWO..
1. You are going to stop more often to recharge than refuel. Your average gasoline car goes in excess of 300 miles between stops, an electric is lucky to get you 200 on a full charge and you can count on just over 100 miles on 75% charge when you need to run the environmental controls to stay comfortable. I figure you will have to stop between 2 and 3 times more often to recharge than my minivan on that road trip.
2. You will stop longer. I can fill up my mini
Re:"Gas" = Electrons (Score:5, Informative)
Those numbers are somewhat exaggerated. My 85kWH battery takes roughly 1 hour, 10 min to get from 5% to 100% (I've measured). To get to 80% takes about 40 minutes.
The cabin conditioning is a tiny fraction of electricity used. Realistically, a 100% charge will net ~240 miles at 75mph (say, highway 5 in CA). The AC has relatively little impact on that range (maybe 5%). The biggest impact is if you live in a really cold area. That can get you down to 200 miles on 100% charge if you're at, say, 30F ambient temp or lower. I've driven in parts of Oregon during the winter and haven't really noticed more than a ~10% hit in range at 70mph cruising speed.
It's definitely less convenient than a gas car by far. But not insurmountable as you make it out to be. On my route from SF to LA, it adds about 1 hour of drive time for a 7 hour drive. That was when there was ~150-200 miles between chargers. Now, on highway 5, there's a charger every ~100 miles. Some even less (Harris Ranch -> Buttonwillow -> Tijon -> Burbank is about ~50 miles each hop).
Trying to drive long distance without Supercharger access is a terrible idea (though I've done it for the lawls).
If the OP undersold the difference, you're definitely overselling it.
Lying on the internet about EVs (Score:3)
Running the AC does not cut your range in half, that's just made up. At most there's a 10% effect on range (heat or AC), and that's under pretty extreme conditions.
On a Tesla Model S you get an 80% charge in 40 minues, not a 75% charge in 45 minutes.
Why even bother with talking about the time to charge to 100%? Noone would do that on a long trip, you charge to 80% and then go.
Why even bother talking about a 15A extension cord? That's the EV equivalent of walking down the highway with a gallon jug of gasolin
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You are going to stop more often to recharge than refuel.
You very rarely "stop to recharge" in an EV. You just charge at the same time as you are doing other things, such as sleeping or shopping.
You will stop longer.
The same applies. You are stopped there *anyway* so you aren't stopping longer.
Yes, if you try to drive 1000 km in a Leaf, it's not going to be fun. But that aren't designed for that. If you do it in a Tesla, their range and charging speed are well aligned to the typical human comfort requirements (drive 2.5 hrs -> stop 20 mins -> drive 2.5 hrs -> stop 60 min
Re: "Gas" = Electrons (Score:2)
I think many of you missed my point entirely. I was pointing out all the non free energy that Pro Tesla people were making a thing of. It's not going to happen. They'll have to stop and pay to fill up, just like us ICE people do. It will just be a different form of gas.
Of course I know it'll take them longer and more stops, but that wasn't my point.
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Actually it usually takes a lot less time and is far more convenient since it only takes me 5 seconds to plug in at home at night and 5 seconds to unplug in the morning in the comfort of my garage. I don't have to periodically pull into a gas station, get out my credit card and wait for my car to fill up. The only time I need to wait to charge is if I'm traveling a long distance. Also, there are usually things to do within easy walking distance while the car is charging. Even on long trips I can often charg
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And in the olden days of the beginnings of the Model S, the S60 did not have free supercharging either. It was a (I believe) € 5.000 option in Europe. For which you could drive at least 125.000 km. But economics of scale say it is better to bundle it with the first cars you sell. I'm sure the free use of the supercharger is somewhere in the cost of a Model S of a Model X you buy now.
I hope they also make an option that buys you the use of the supercharger and charges you for every kWh you u
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Or the cost that is cut is you, the expensive developer.
My company provides free sandwiches because we have found that people that eat at their desk are back to coding within 20 minutes, while those that go out to eat are unproductive for an hour or more. The cost of the sandwich is far less than the value of those extra 40 minutes. So if anyone is going to be cut, it is going to be the slackers that paid for their lunch, not the people that got the free lunch.
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Unless your sandwiches are made by a 5 star chef to my dietary requirements and liking, I'll go out to eat. that 40 minutes is $40 of my time and if you don't provide me a $30 sandwich, the CEO can stuff it.
Companies that do this provide garbage sandwiches. I've been at those places, the catering sounds great to the new kiddies, but those of us that value our health will not touch the 60grams of carbohydrate and 600 grams of sodium $0.90 sandwich.
Anyone worth their salt uses that lunch hour to reset and
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eating at your desk is forbidden by the labor code here in France
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