South Korea To Kill the Coin in Path Towards 'Cashless Society' (cnbc.com) 258
The central bank in South Korea, one of the world's most technologically advanced and integrated nations, is taking a major step in getting rid of coins in the nation in what is an attempt to become a cashless society. The first step is to get rid of the metal, a feat authorities hope to achieve by 2020. From a report on FT: The Bank of Korea on Thursday announced it will step up its efforts to reduce the circulation of coins, the highest denomination of which is worth less than $0.50. As part of the plan it wants consumers to deposit loose change on to Korea's ubiquitous "T Money" cards -- electronic travel passes that can be used to pay for metro fares, taxi rides and even purchases in 30,000 convenience stores. The proposals are just the latest step for a nation at the forefront of harnessing technology to make citizens' lives more convenient. Online shopping is the norm, as are mobile payments for the country's tech-savvy millennials. South Korea is already one of the least cash-dependent nations in the world. It has among the highest rates of credit card ownership -- about 1.9 per citizen -- and only about 20 percent of Korean payments are made using paper money, according to the BoK. But while convenience is at the crux of the central bank's plan, there are other considerations. The BoK spends more than $40m a year minting coins. There are also costs involved for financial institutions that collect, manage and circulate them.
Another step toward tyeanny (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Another step toward tyeanny (Score:5, Insightful)
That's like pissing in the ocean to contribute to the rising sea level. We are being traced far more than money ever could already, yet there are very few tyrants around.
Actually if anything tyrants seem to prefer USD as a primary currency.
Re:Another step toward tyeanny (Score:4, Informative)
There's good reason for that. If your army fails and you need to run, USD is accepted everywhere.
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USD is accepted everywhere.
No it's not. But the USD is accepted when buying weapons from foreign powers who deal in USD.
If you're talking about general trade then the same thing can be said for every currency, though many others are far more difficult to counterfeit.
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The Euro is probably readily exchanged but has not been quite as stable and is probably not usable as a local currency. Up until Brexit the British Pound was probably as stable if not more stable than the US do
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Not everywhere. Good luck trying to pay anything in USD in Brazil.
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If you had to pick a single currency if you were going on the run or needed to move around a lot, I can't think of anything better than USD.
Re: Another step toward tyeanny (Score:5, Interesting)
What are you talking about?
USD is more accepted than ANY other currency globally. The top global commodities are traded in dollar. Just by sheer population volumes in the native countries, the Rupee and Renminbi are probably used a lot. But both those countries keep far more USD debt than any other foreign currency. Euro comes in second, but never replaced the USD in any of the global commodity trades. UK even prices their commodities in USD since the 90s.
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eh, where is the USD not accepted? It's preferred over local currency in many of the third world places I've been.
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Oh really? A good many were surprised by the Snowden revelations; and there's likely more snoopativity that we don't know about.
And Trump would record every sneeze and fart of all Muslims and illegal immigrants if he could.
The worse tyrants may be the stealth tyrants.
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A good many were surprised by the Snowden revelations
Knowing who you were on the phone to does not a tyrant make.
And Trump would record every sneeze and fart of all Muslims and illegal immigrants if he could.
Emphases added to show why this point is also completely and utterly irrelevant.
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As the Iran-Contra scandal showed, just because it's not constitutional or not vetted by the other branches does not mean it can't happen.
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Given our government is already attempting to do that to everyone in this country, that would be marked improvement on privacy.
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Re:Another step toward tyeanny (Score:4, Informative)
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So, a normal person :-)
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What does 'cis' even mean, besides Computer Information Systems?
Its kind of a nerdy political joke. In organic chemistry, cis- is the opposite of trans- .
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If South Koreans have nothing to worry about, why do they need to keep having 1-2 million protester demonstrations demanding their president step down?
The protesters don't fear tyranny so much as they fear their latest dynastic president (her father was the third "president**" of south korea) has been corrupted by her confidant who's father was the leader of an unscrupulous pseudo-religious organization (her father was apparently the "korean rasputin" of the the current president's father).
**Her father led a military coup d'état before eventually being elected president
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No. Not at all. You can go off grid. But once cash is gone, every single move you make will be tracked by somebody. The US government has proven time and time again that they view warrants with scorn and derision and they'll spy on you when and how they want.
Now we are going to give the government the power to completely lock us down? No.. I will fight back before that happens. I'm not delusional, I don't think I can win, but sometimes you have to make the stand anyhow, if for no other reason than to inspir
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True electronic cash is hard, perhaps impossible, but there are two easy special cases: electronic coins, and electronic traveler's checks.
* Coins are easy because the fraud threat is much reduced for sub-dollar purchases, as is the concern for anonymity.
* Traveler's checks.are non-anonymous by design, as part of support for repudiation. A similar electronic system, where I trade anonymity for repudiation is my wallet is stolen, would also be useful.
But neither is an acceptable replacement for cash. Sadly
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Sadly, cash isn't all that anonymous these days, as the serial numbers are all scanned on any large deposit or withdrawal.
It depends on with whom one spends it.
I can think of a half-dozen kinds of businesses off the top of my head that will buy and sell in actual cash. Places like pawn shops, auto wrecking yards, and other businesses that often cater to poorer people or deal in particular kinds of transactions. If one deals with these kinds of businesses then it's unlikely that cash will be easily traced as it'll go through a lot of hands as those business owners also spend money.
Re:Another step toward tyeanny (Score:5, Insightful)
It is not so much about anonymity in purchases, it is all about control. With a card they do most emphatically control you, you no longer buy stuff, you ask permission to have stuff and that can be denied for what ever reason they choose, in a capitalist society via that card, they can turn you into a non-citizen instantly.
Once you card is blocked you are done, no public transport, all services linked to the card shut down ie no phone calls, no taxi, no food, no drink, you can try walking home.
Via that card, they will be able to control you, your politics, your life and via their cards, your family. It is extremely dangerous stuff, cash in a capitalist society is freedom, no cash and you become a slave, always asking permission from your masters.
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Anonymity prevents that sort of thing fairly well all on its own.
But the use cases matter! For sub-dollar purchases, an alternative to change in the pocket, fine, whatever. For an alternative to travelers' checks, again, repudiation is the point of the exercise. Those are both good use cases for something like this.
It's the more mainstream use of cash, like paying for a taxi, where it's problematic. You can see this in China today: everything is tied to your government-issued ID, so without one it's ver
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Government? Make that *banks*.
And they will also decide whether or not you indeed are allowed to use your own money.
One move they don't like, and you're 'disconnected' from your money.
"Oops, sincere mistake or technical difficulty." for minor 'offences', a total and permanent disconnect for people they really don't like.
Like Assange, Wikileaks for instance.
Next are the critical journalists, then you.
Re: Another step toward tyeanny (Score:2)
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Re:Another step toward tyranny (Score:2)
This is probably why Apple wants to do the same thing. Will this be the direction that the US will follow is still to be seen. I am not sure I would want the government being able to track everything that I purchase, what shop I visit, etc. They already do it with credit cards (which is why I no longer posses any), now that want to eliminate the last remnant of privacy. I just hope I never see it in my life time
That's the last thing you should be worrying about (Score:3)
Re:Another step toward tyeanny (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, if they're really out to screw you, it's not paranoia.
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... because central banks can then impose negative interest rates, and you'd have no place to hide your savings
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Make money worthless, make every transaction traceable.
If you have a cell phone you're already tracked 24/7 as long as you carry it, unless you get both a new phone (IMEI) and SIM card (IMSI) on a regular basis.
There is more than one form of tracking. This isn't about tracking your physical location, but your financial transactions. What you buy, when, where and from whom provides much more information about you than your location does. Hell, if they know enough about your interests and habits, they can predict where you will be when, no physical tracking required.
Top down decision (Score:5, Insightful)
Nobody wants a cashless society except the people who stand to skim a percent off every financial transaction and the government, who wants to be able to trace every credit and debit ever made.
Re:Top down decision (Score:5, Interesting)
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He/she is a Vancouver hipster douche. It's rather obvious from the wording of the post. You, my friend, are absolutely correct, the Interac system is fucked.
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You said subway. That limits it to (IIRC) three cities, and if you were in Montreal you'd have called it the metro.
Toss-up between Toronto and Vancouver.
No idea how the above poster arrived at his conclusion.
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Good place for one, given the weather. I left Canada over 25 years ago, so I'm not up on the details. (And I lived in Southern Ontario and Quebec.)
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I know my previous comments were a little caustic, and I'd like to apologise for that.
"and most other people are simply not important enough for anyone else to want to pay attention to "
This claim is generally made by people who have not yet had a run in with the police or the state. What happens is you get involved for something minor, or unrelated, and as part of the shake down that the cops do, they look at every aspect of your life. Here in the UK they just passed a law that everyone's internet traffic
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Fuck off "mark-t" you won't be happy in Vancouver for long. It's a soul-destroying place.
But in terms of electronics payments, what, you think Interac [wikipedia.org] is a guiding light to the future of a cashless society? Why exactly is that Wikipedia page only 289 words long?
Canada is the only country in the world where I opened a bank account, put a few tens of thousands of Canadian dollars in it, and then proceeded to go about my business. Only to discover a few weeks later that I was unable to *receive* any Interac pa
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You're welcome to your opinions of these institutions, of course, but why did you feel compelled to tell me "fuck off" simply because I relayed my own experiences which happen to evidently differ from your own?
I've been in Vancouver for over 20 years now, and I'm still liking it just fine.
You aren't the first person I've heard gripe about RBC... but there are other financial institutions. That's the first time I've ever heard of anyone being unable to *receive* money, however.,.. unless the source of
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.. unless the source of the money itself was considered untrustworthy.
Who decide what's trustworthy and untrustworthy ? The US government has a very nasty track record following "operation choke point"...
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I'm happy for you. Just because you enjoy it though is no reason to sabotage the life of everyone else. I've no problem with you carrying your card around, leave my cash alone.
Re:Top down decision (Score:4)
My point is that this assertion is false. I do not work for a bank, nor the government, and I have no vested interest in such information being tracked by those organizations. My interests are driven by the additional convenience that it has offered me personally, and absolutely *nowhere* in my post did I even insinuate that people who are uncomfortable with such payment systems are somehow inferior to me or their opinions any less worthy of merit.
Re:Top down decision (Score:5, Insightful)
My point is that this assertion is false.
The assertion is quite true. The fact that you enjoy the convenience of paying by card doesn't mean you want a cashless society, does it? You just want to be able to pay by card. As we can all pretty much see for ourselves, being able to pay with plastic doesn't require a cashless society. It's not an either/or situation.
Unless you do, as you imply by using yourself as an example of someone who wants a cashless society, actually want everyone else to lose the ability to pay by cash, in which case the answer to the question:
Whose life are you suggesting that I am sabotaging exactly?
is "everyone who values their money and privacy more than your convenience."
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Actually, it's happened to me. My banking card was replaced the next day, as soon as I could get to a bank, Not having my PIN, the attempts that were made by the thief (apparently 3, by the time I got home to report it stolen) to use my card did not succeed, and my funds were fine. I had to wait a few days for a replacement credit card to arrive, however. There were a shitload of inconveniences that I had to put up with for several weeks while I basically had to rebuild what seemed like my entire li
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Well, the only thing I'm "making" off my own transactions is the cash back, but don't tell the credit card companies this, I'd still do it without the cash back.. ESPECIALLY if I can do it with Apple Pay.
Even ignoring the cash back, it's faster/more convenient to pay by credit card.. but since I do get the cash back, it's cheaper too. (Yes, the stores pay the credit card companies, but at each purchase, my price is the same.. and of course I do pay off in full every month so pay no interest. I'm getting a
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Like I said, NO I AM NOT paying 2-3% more, because my price is not lower IF I PAID CASH.
Plus, I am getting 2% cash back, so I'm actually paying LESS than your theoretical nobody-pays-credit-cards rate.
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Like I said, NO I AM NOT paying 2-3% more, because my price is not lower IF I PAID CASH.
Some places offer a discount for cash. The shopkeepers, too, do not like to pay the vig to the credit card companies. One local restaurant simply doesn't take credit cards.
But in places that do not have the discount you are still wrong. EVERYONE is paying more to cover the fee for those whose convenience is worth more to them than their money or privacy.
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Yes, I said this originally.
We are all paying more. But since at each INDIVIDUAL purchase, RIGHT NOW, I am paying the exact same price whether I pay via credit card or cash, I will take the one that is cheaper (later) for me, AND more convenient, credit card.
In fact, today I paid with cash for something for the first time in a long time (except quarters in pinball machines), since it was
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Can you give examples of specific stores that agree?
would they then at least take a check? 3% is probably enough, but I still think it is a pain to have to carry/deal with that kind of cash.
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Can you give examples of specific stores that agree?
would they then at least take a check? 3% is probably enough, but I still think it is a pain to have to carry/deal with that kind of cash.
Generally, dealing with cash is NOT 3% less expensive than dealing in credit card payments for the merchant. There are issues of dealing in cash (some of it occasionally gets lost or stolen, someone needs to be paid for counting it and bringing it to the bank and properly entering it into the books, etc.) While it is PROBABLY cheaper for the merchant to take cash, dealing in cash is NOT free of expenses.
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Thanks, I've thought so too, but the Anonymous Coward claimed that stores would let him pay 3% less if he paid with cash.
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Thanks, I've thought so too, but the Anonymous Coward claimed that stores would let him pay 3% less if he paid with cash.
I suspect that many business owners do not properly understand the costs associated with dealing in cash, and it is quite possible that some could give such a discount.
From a business point of view, offering such a discount could generate increased sales that might offset higher costs, so it isn't necessarily a bad move on the retailer's part even if it the discount is greater than the actual decrease in costs.
And criminals (Score:2)
You are forgetting criminals. If there is no cash, and every transaction is traced, it becomes much more difficult to run a criminal activity.
As a famous Swede [wired.com] said:
I challenge anyone to come up with reasons to keep cash that outweigh the enormous benefits of getting rid of it. Imagine the worldwide suffering because of crime, from drug dealing to bicycle theft. Crime that requires cash. The Swedish krona is a small currency, used only in Sweden. This is the ideal place to start the biggest crime-preventing scheme ever. We could and should be the first cashless society in the world.—Björn Ulvaeus
It seems that Korea may beat Sweden to being the first cashless society.
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Cash is just a medium of exchange. If there's no officially printed/minted currency, the criminals will find something else. It's not as if there was no crime before money was invented.
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I disagree, I want a cashless society. ... At the moment I often find myself with no actual cash on hand because I can *almost* live my life without it.
So you want to force everyone else to do away with what they prefer (cash) because it is too inconvenient for you to remember to carry any with you? That's what "cashless" means -- "no cash".
Life would be easier without physical money.
Most of us have been able to figure out how to deal with cash, and some of us prefer not dealing with large multinational corporations to funnel money around the planet, taking their cut off the top. The fact you can't figure out how to deal with cash is not sufficient justification to do away with cash for the rest of
Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues (Score:5, Insightful)
The short short version of this rant:
- Banks want to get rid of cash so you CANNOT withdraw from the banking system. Currently, if you really don't want to deal with banks, you can pull your money out in the form of cash, and transact WITHOUT them. They don't like this. They want COMPLETE CONTROL of your money. This way they can charge whatever fees or negative interest rates they want.
- Governments want the cashless society so they can MONITOR EVERY TRANSACTION. This gives them more control, and greater tax revenue at the expensive of privacy and freedom. Also, piss off the wrong bureaucrat or policeman, and poof, they push a button and all your money is frozen. You can't buy food, pay your rent, or pay a lawyer to get the money unfrozen.
Oppose the cashless society.
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Sad but true (Score:2)
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You hit the nail on he head with negative interest rates. The current reason any investors accept negative rates is because it is inconvenient to move large sums of money into cash. When they make it impossible to go to cash, they can really push rates into negative territory.
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The MSM are part of the system. Forget that.
Impact on homeless people? (Score:2)
I don't know what homelessness in South Korea looks like, but I can't imagine that taking away change makes it any easier for them.
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Homelessness is almost nonexistent because people with mental disorders generally aren't allowed to wander free in Korea
That's awfully patronizing. Homeless don't always have mental disorders, sometime you are in a transient situation, sometime you want to say a big "fuck you" to materialistic way of life. Also, it is very telling about the obvious lack of personal freedom of Korean society.
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Cashless Society (Score:5, Funny)
Nickles and pennies. (Score:2)
I wish the US would get rid of pennies and nickles, rounding everything to 10 cents. Or maybe even ridding the dime, and rounding to nearest 25-cents. The hard part is doing it without too many side-effects.
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After visiting about a decade ago, I'm convinced the only reason they haven't gotten rid of pennies is because of all the tourist squash the coin machines, that are literally everywhere.
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Amen. Get rid of pennies, nickels, AND DIMES. And half-dollars. AND DOLLAR BILLS (yech!). All we need are quarters and dollar coins. Make the new quarters about the physical size of the present penny, and keep the new dollar coins about the physical size of the present quarters. I'd also be inclined to replace $5 bills and $10 bills with coins. There's nothing more disgusting than dirty, smelly folding money. Of course you woul;d keep 20s, 50s, and 100s.
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There's nothing more disgusting than dirty, smelly folding money.
I think you're keeping your money in the wrong part of your pants, buddy.
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All we need are quarters and dollar coins.
So, does that 7 cent washer I buy from the hardware store get rounded down to 0 (FREE!) or up to 25 cents (too expensive!)?
and keep the new dollar coins about the physical size of the present quarters.
The current dollar coins are already about the size of the quarter. You can already carry those if you wish, you know, without mandating a change to the whole system. And you can throw your pennies, nickels and dimes away when you get them if you dislike them so much. You can also throw those smelly one dollar bills away, or better, put them in the ubiquitous donation or tip jars next
If you build it, they will come (Score:2)
If you stop minting coins, eventually they'll stop circulating.
USE CAUTION (Score:5, Insightful)
When cash is no longer "in your hand" then it's no longer in your control. A cashless society is a VERY slippery slope and needs to be treated as such.
Small moves are necessary to ensure that there are adequate solutions to the fears and doubts that people will inevitably have about such a move.
A cashless society means you are at the financial mercy of whomever is in control of the little 1s and 0s in the financial sector.... and it won't be you!
This will work magnificently.... (Score:5, Funny)
Until Kim Jong Un decides to EMP the south.
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Nah, he should last at least 12 days.
Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
still shortsighted, but I guess a billion times better than what India is going through right now.
Make no mistake people. All this crap around cashless society has absolutely zero to do with the costs of production, and all to do about population control, bank power, and the end of privacy. Once cash stops existing, that's it... you have zero independent financial control. All your earnings will be at banks hands. All the more reason for banks to exploit clients, toy with their money, and hold a get out of jail free card if they f*ck things up.
I guess one could say that we're already too deep into the whole sh*t swamp to go back, specially in cases like South Korea, but this is kinda the equivalent in economy terms of solving poverty by killing all the poor people.
Cash, in all countries, is the type of revenue that all the poorest, excluded from society, in the most fragile parts, minority conditions and whatnot depends on. Killing cash won't solve their problems, it'll only aggravate things.
But I don't need to talk much about it. We'll soon see the resulting catastrophe that will happen in India if they don't revert the decision. It'll be a huge shitshow. I don't even know if there will be anything recognizable left of the country a year from now if they continue going that way, mark my words.
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Welcome to the world of barter.
India just tried to go almost completely cashless (Score:5, Informative)
Overnight and without warning, the government banned bills worth more than about $1.50. The result has been an absolute disaster [zerohedge.com]:
Banks and ATMs are running out of what little cash their is [indianexpress.com] shortly after they open.
Kill the Coin? You mean BitCoin? (Score:2)
Good luck with that....Wait a min... (reading the article..) Oh, kill PHYSICAL coins.... Still, Good Luck with that!
Was I the only one who read the headline and thought Korea was going to try to kill BitCoin?
I was? Ok, Sorry to disturb you..
Sadly, this is the end for them... (Score:2)
Sadly, this is the end for them...
Now when the National Assembly of South Korea deadlocks on some vote, they will have nothing to flip to resolve the deadlock. Maybe someone will bring a "Pass the Pigs" game...
Think of the children ... (Score:5, Informative)
Seriously think about how kids learn how to use and appreciate money - using an ATM card is just not the same as holding coins, counting them, feeling the weight in your pocket.
And (USA I'm looking at you) start including sales tax in advertised prices - explaining to a 5 year old that yes he has enough for that ice cream, but he has to calculate 6% in his head and add that to the price, is just insane
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