IBM Now Has More Employees In India Than In the US (newsindiatimes.com) 217
New submitter Zorro shares a report from The New York Times (Warning: source may be paywalled; alternative source): Over the last decade, IBM has shifted its center of gravity halfway around the world to India, making it a high-tech example of the globalization trends that the Trump administration has railed against. Today, the company employs 130,000 people in India -- about one-third of its total work force, and more than in any other country. Their work spans the entire gamut of IBM's businesses, from managing the computing needs of global giants like AT&T and Shell to performing cutting-edge research in fields like visual search, artificial intelligence and computer vision for self-driving cars. One team is even working with the producers of Sesame Street to teach vocabulary to kindergartners in Atlanta.
The work in India has been vital to keeping down costs at IBM, which has posted 21 consecutive quarters of revenue declines as it has struggled to refashion its main business of supplying tech services to corporations and governments. The company's employment in India has nearly doubled since 2007, even as its work force in the United States has shrunk through waves of layoffs and buyouts. Although IBM refuses to disclose exact numbers, outsiders estimate that it employs well under 100,000 people at its American offices now, down from 130,000 in 2007. Depending on the job, the salaries paid to Indian workers are one-half to one-fifth those paid to Americans, according to data posted by the research firm Glassdoor.
The work in India has been vital to keeping down costs at IBM, which has posted 21 consecutive quarters of revenue declines as it has struggled to refashion its main business of supplying tech services to corporations and governments. The company's employment in India has nearly doubled since 2007, even as its work force in the United States has shrunk through waves of layoffs and buyouts. Although IBM refuses to disclose exact numbers, outsiders estimate that it employs well under 100,000 people at its American offices now, down from 130,000 in 2007. Depending on the job, the salaries paid to Indian workers are one-half to one-fifth those paid to Americans, according to data posted by the research firm Glassdoor.
Perhaps the government and corps... (Score:5, Insightful)
.... got fed up being put through to some idiot in Bangalore who couldn't solve his own shoelaces whenever there was an issue who then had to escalate it 3 levels up before there was even a satisfactory response, never mind a solution. Of course IBM arn't the only ones guilty of this. You'd think companies would have started to realise now that outsourcing isn't always the solution to their problems, sometimes it IS the problem.
Re:Perhaps the government and corps... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah... you seem to be miss-informed about IBM these days.
Once upon a time that would have been true, these days IBM specialises in not even delivering a solution in the first place, and still somehow keeping a bit pile of the money involved.
Then they let things cool off for a year or so, and have another dig at the gravy trough.
The usual formula seems to be that a project that could be done for $x by getting local companies to quite it is instead quietly contracted through a process only involving several of the 'big names' for $x*100, and then IBM is given the contract for 5 to 10 times that figure, and bollocks it up so badly it never ever works.
I think we call it progress and open government?
IBMs primary skill is a small group of nice suits who talk a very good talk and present a very good presentation, and then walk away never to be seen near that project every again.
Oh, and the fact that still, no one ever gets fires for buying IBM.
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Ah... you seem to be miss-informed about IBM these days.
Once upon a time that would have been true, these days IBM specialises in not even delivering a solution in the first place, and still somehow keeping a bit pile of the money involved.
Then they let things cool off for a year or so, and have another dig at the gravy trough.
The usual formula seems to be that a project that could be done for $x by getting local companies to quite it is instead quietly contracted through a process only involving several of the 'big names' for $x*100, and then IBM is given the contract for 5 to 10 times that figure, and bollocks it up so badly it never ever works.
I think we call it progress and open government?
IBMs primary skill is a small group of nice suits who talk a very good talk and present a very good presentation, and then walk away never to be seen near that project every again.
Oh, and the fact that still, no one ever gets fires for buying IBM.
Case in point: The Phoenix payroll system the Canadian Government wasted millions upon millions on. Not just on the non-functional system itself, but on major staffing needed to manually process payroll so employees could actually get paid.
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EX-CIO Beth Jacob's from Target Corp. My opinion on why she was really asked to leave is due to the significant number of vendors and outsourcing of IT that was done before 2014. IBM was one of the largest vendors and since 2014 and since Beth Jacob's departure a departure from IBM has also occurred.
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You'd think companies would have started to realise now that outsourcing isn't always the solution to their problems, sometimes it IS the problem.
err.. in reality, companies demonstrate by their actions they have come to the opposite conclusion; outsourcing is the solution.
face reality, not wishful fantasy.
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err.. in reality, companies demonstrate by their actions they have come to the opposite conclusion; outsourcing is the solution.
This is not "outsourcing". The Indians working for IBM are employees.
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They were only hired to fill contract positions for outsourced solutions. You are paying IBM to manage a labor pool remotely. With interest and fees.
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.... got fed up being put through to some idiot in Bangalore who couldn't solve his own shoelaces whenever there was an issue who then had to escalate it 3 levels up before there was even a satisfactory response, never mind a solution. Of course IBM arn't the only ones guilty of this. You'd think companies would have started to realise now that outsourcing isn't always the solution to their problems, sometimes it IS the problem.
You really think the person who's getting a fat bonus every quarter really gives a shit about what "companies" think?
Once again, pure unadulterated greed stands out. The only thing that matters is their benefit from managing a number at the bottom of a page, no matter what that takes. Banking executives have certainly proven unethical and even illegal activities are worth the effort and risk.
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Banking executives have certainly proven unethical and even illegal activities are worth the effort and risk.
Maybe I am missing your point in making this comparison, but are you implying that hiring brown people instead of white people is unethical? Please explain.
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What is IBM known for now?
The last thing was Watson... Which is starting to be old technology. And IBM despite its commercials doesn't seem to be implemented anywhere to do things amazing or could be done for cheaper with custom coding. And Consulting, where you need to fight with a bunch of big names.
IBM just doesn't hold the same recognition anymore.
Part of it is the decline of customer support where you have level 1-3 support more or less being useless, especially for most Companies that have a competen
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No, it is the Conservatives who won't pay the cost of doing business. Pay some taxes, pay some workers...all grudgingly. Pay for fouling the environment? Nope, that's not them, they believe it is the environment's fault it got fouled. People taking it in the neck because of a fouled environment? They must be ungrateful bastards who don't want to work for a living, they should be honored to live in a fouled environment, sacrificing their kids' health if need be.
Re:Perhaps the government and corps... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it is the Conservatives who won't pay the cost of doing business. Pay some taxes, pay some workers...all grudgingly. Pay for fouling the environment? Nope, that's not them, they believe it is the environment's fault it got fouled. People taking it in the neck because of a fouled environment? They must be ungrateful bastards who don't want to work for a living, they should be honored to live in a fouled environment, sacrificing their kids' health if need be.
Clowns to the left, jokers to the right. Conservatives want a free lunch doing business. Liberals want an unlimited amount of free social programs. Neither have any regard for the work or cost involved in either endeavor.
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See previous response. Provide a proof for how the math of a balanced tax budget and how our national debt isn't going to balloon out of control.
You haven't provided a proof that it will, and you're demanding that they provide a proof that it won't? We call people like you hypocrites.
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See previous response. Provide a proof for how the math of a balanced tax budget and how our national debt isn't going to balloon out of control.
You haven't provided a proof that it will, and you're demanding that they provide a proof that it won't? We call people like you hypocrites.
Oh what a valuable contribution to the topic. Ok I defer to you, what truth can we know on this topic then? Please enlighten us. Or instead of making a contribution, we'll just exchange insults then I take it? Because that does a lot of good doesn't it? When this is the default behavior of the human race, we deserve an extinction event.
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My contribution is that I've pointed out the specific way in which you're full of shit. I'll do it again: I note that you're still dissembling instead of providing some evidence. If it's so obvious, it should be trivial for you.
Thus far, you've added absolutely nothing to this conversation, but you have managed to waste time and take up space. Do you have any intention of adding any value?
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My contribution is that I've pointed out the specific way in which you're full of shit. I'll do it again: I note that you're still dissembling instead of providing some evidence. If it's so obvious, it should be trivial for you.
Did you now? In order to prove that claim, you would have to do the following:
:)
1) Define the claim I was making
2) Provide facts and evidence to refute the claim
In order for me to be "full of shit", I would have to be "full of shit" about <something>. If you can't define what said something is, then I'm not "full of shit". Unless of course, you are just spewing ad hominems, in which case, by all means carry on.
Are you at least going to attempt to be intellectual honest or are you just so co
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"Our guys are doing great - even better than most of our Americans - and we've haven't experienced any of the problems purported here on Slashdot."
Yeah, thats what all managers say when all they're talking about is the cost savings, not the actual productive output. I've worked with plenty of coders from India (not born in the west) and they were uniformly rubbish. They're thought patterns were linear, as soon as they hit a problem they throw it upstairs instead of trying to solve it and for the most part t
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Re: 21 quarters of decline (Score:2)
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Well gee-golly, if Hitler was for it must be objectionable!
Used to be Idiots Become Managers (Score:2)
So now it stands for Indians Become Managers?
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International....business machines (Score:3, Informative)
Re: International....business machines (Score:2)
There is also automation that has started digging in. A lot of work that gets offshored for clients is stuff like checking some fields before releasing a PO, executing a script to implement a change into prod, resetting user passwords, creating a VM from image, restarting & checking servers for patch level, etc. Mundane stuff that historically was cheaper to offload to the lowest cost labor but now it's better to have one small scripting team and a small executing team.
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There is also automation that has started digging in. A lot of work that gets offshored for clients is stuff like checking some fields before releasing a PO, executing a script to implement a change into prod, resetting user passwords, creating a VM from image, restarting & checking servers for patch level, etc. Mundane stuff that historically was cheaper to offload to the lowest cost labor but now it's better to have one small scripting team and a small executing team.
So, all the jobs that robots/dumb AI/shellscripts will be replacing soon?
Re:International....business machines (Score:4, Informative)
currently, India is starting to lose employee count since it is no longer a "low cost" supplier.
Bangalore and Mumbai are getting more expensive, but if you go north and east, there are another billion Indians who will work for less.
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What has India to do with declining revenues? (Score:2)
The difference for me is that we pay a high premium for IBM, and expect #1 performance for that premium. If we a
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This is an information industry, and it is eminently portable to anywhere with decent connectivity.
India had a big advantage because, as a former British colony, the English language is widely spoken there. Have you ever worked with teams from Brazil or Eastern Europe? It can be done, but not easily or efficiently.
You're correct though, IBM charges a premium price and isn't delivering a premium product. As more businesses figure that out IBM's death spiral becomes faster and faster.
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"You're correct though, IBM charges a premium price and isn't delivering a premium product. As more businesses figure that out IBM's death spiral becomes faster and faster."
And yet, just today, one of biggest 50 banks in the world announced a strategic partnership with IBM to bring "innovation and transformation".
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You mistake IBM for an ongoing business concern. That's not the managers' job. The managers of IBM are only there to slowly eat the pig until its gone, then they'll move on to another pig.
One team is even working with the producers of Ses (Score:2)
"One team is even working with the producers of Sesame Street to teach vocabulary to kindergartners in Atlanta. "
This may be the first phase of bringing 1st line technical support jobs back to the US.
/aisle seat
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This may be the first phase of bringing 1st line technical support jobs back to the US.
When IBM bought Tivoli they implemented a level 1 support team to answer the phone and open cases for us. And we started seeing cases with shit like "yowzij" (usage) and "dragon drop". And this is why I.B.M. is S.H.I.T.
Globalization = Pure Capitalisim = Locustlike (Score:5, Insightful)
This issue is nothing particular to IBM. It is simply the way of Globalization.
It is a predictable and repeating pattern.
A company leaves an area with high standards of living for a 2nd or 3rd world country in order to save money and increase their profit margins.
Other companies do the same.
2nd world economy grows, wages increase, standard of living increases.
Company moves to the next 2nd or 3rd world country since the current one is too expensive.
After a few cycles, the wages and standard of living in the original country should have reduced enough due to goods no longer being produced there that the company can relocate back to country 1 and start the whole thing over again.
They are basically locusts. Moving from place to place until they have taken every ounce of profit they can.
Re: Globalization = Pure Capitalisim = Locustlike (Score:5, Interesting)
Not sure if you noticed it, but you are basically saying global corporations increase standards of living everywhere they go. Your attempt to make them look like the bad guys is backfiring spectacularly.
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Oh, I thought he was saying that high taxation was driving companies out of first world countries and that had nothing to do with the government.
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Globalization increases the standards only temporarily. And they don't increase it by much before they hop out and leave a big, gaping hole that makes the problem worse than when they were there. Because the fact is there is always someplace cheaper with less regulations and pesky work standards.
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Not sure if you noticed it, but the post explicitly stated that the increased standard of living was temporary.
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2nd world economy grows, wages increase, standard of living increases.
Let's stop right there. Here's a lesson to learn. What this means is that by subsidizing the standard of living of the citizens of your own home country, you raise the standards of living in a different country and possibly one that hates you. That's almost the definition of treason is it not? Yes I use the word "hate". Why you might ask? Let's take India for example, do you know where the majority of scam robocalls come from? Have you heard what these folks have to say about Americans and probably n
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Let's stop right there. Here's a lesson to learn. What this means is that by subsidizing the standard of living of the citizens of your own home country, you raise the standards of living in a different country and possibly one that hates you. That's almost the definition of treason is it not?
Ok this is the stupidest comment I've read all day.
Why would you want to raise the standard of living in a country where the country's disposition towards your country is far less than friendly? You do the math.
Well apart from the fact that India has been an ally of the west for hundreds of years, the math has already been done. Centuries of foreign affairs has taught us that increasing the standards of living has the greatest force for peace there is.
When you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose.
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Ok this is the stupidest comment I've read all day.
I think I lost brain cells reading your response. Next time I vote, I will vote with the intent to cancel out your vote. Cheers!
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Well apart from the fact that India has been an ally of the west for hundreds of years, the math has already been done.
Well apart from the fact that India has been a colony of the west for hundreds of years, the math has already been done.
You had a minor typo there, which I have fixed for you.
Now that the folks in the UK want a Brexit from the EU, they are chucking out low-paid, unskilled workers from Eastern Europe, mostly Poles.
The Brexit crew wants to "return England to its former glory" . . . which means they will be colonizing again. They need a new source of low-paid, unskilled workers.
However, an angry, scrawny
Re: Globalization = Pure Capitalisim = Locustlike (Score:3, Informative)
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This is great because you've furnished nothing to support your claim. But hey, I'll spend time out of my life actually making a real life coherent point (you're welcome).
https://www.quora.com/Are-Indi... [quora.com]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
and honestly, what on earth does India get from alliances with Russia or Iran that would benefit it? Literally nothing aside from Iran playing a small counterweight to Pakistan. What on earth does modern Russia have to offer India? What does India have to gain from no
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Here is one google that will help you. [google.com]
Here, about another that shows India Russian weapons that they collaborate on together in the same fashion that America, UK, and Canada do. [google.com]
Then for some MORE fun, look up where the MAJORITY of Indians who travel abroad for an education, GO. It is NOT America. It is Russia. It has been that way since the 60s and remains
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Oh name calling like a big boy! From the tone you must have shit your diapers when you read my post.
For you first link, I see a lot of US references in briefly looking. Furthermore, India knows Russia is of zero use in
It's ongoing boarder disputes with China. I think you're getting confused by old cold war political alignments to be honest.
As far as weapons go...
How about they're our second largest purchaser of arms
https://www.bloomberg.com/news... [bloomberg.com]
Or how about we're their largest supplier of weapons
https:// [swarajyamag.com]
Re: Globalization = Pure Capitalisim = Locustlike (Score:2)
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I generally dont name call but at least you learned something about India!
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It boosts the economy of poorer countries and adjusts them slowly to the economy of richer countries, which is an overall positive trend.
It pulls the poorer country up by pulling the richer country down, which is a positive trend for one and a very negative trend for the other.
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No, you need to check in with el Presidente Tweetie. He lauded IBM not so long ago for promising to create 25,000 new jobs in the U.S. It wasn't that he was too stupid to realize they were playing him, he got his sound bite and was a happy camper. His interest was no deeper.
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This issue is nothing particular to IBM. It is simply the way of Globalization.
More interestingly, Globalization only works for companies.
If I want to buy a DVD or textbook from India (at their prices) or, say, medicine from Canada, that's against the law.
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I can by text books from anywhere on the world.
Why can't you?
IBM = India Be Me (Score:2)
Welcome to Big Blue, India!
Quality? (Score:5, Insightful)
hum (Score:2)
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Indeed. It's funny to see so many people here thinking that the US has some sort of claim on IBM, they're betraying the home country, and somehow Indian employees are worth less than Americans.
IBM is a multinational. It sells to whatever country is interested and it'll hire employees where-ever suits it.
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Of course India contributes about 17% to GDP, so by those stats, the US market should still matter more by that calculus. Of course by that same calculus, the mom and pop restaurant up the street from me should be trying to cater to the global population, despite having no ability to sell to them..
A more relevant metric is *IBM* income percentage. The US comprises 44% of IBM income, while *all* of AP (including Japan, China, India, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand) makes up about 21% combined.
While you
Terrible Metrics (Score:4, Interesting)
Headcount is a terrible metric of anything - how many western jobs were lost to exactly one person in the developing world? Yep, 0.3-0.5. Pretty much every time a team of 50 in the west gets replaced, it's by a team of 100 or more in India.
Headcount might be a headline-grabbing metric, but it's pretty terrible for anything else. How about revenue? That would probably be a better metric - and for the US, how much of that money earned internationally made it back to the US? With your crazy tax rules, not much, I'd guess.
Re:Terrible Metrics (Score:5, Funny)
IBM ? (Score:3)
Is it 1983? Who cares about IBM?
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Erm, I think all the banks and insurance and other financial companies running on IBM mainframes with a gadjillion lines of robust, thoroughly tested COBOL code care a great deal. The reason IBM has so many people in India is that they are pretty much the only country still teaching people COBOL. My sister was in the last class to teach COBOL before they stopped the classes.
I don't know why COBOL gets so much hate from other programmers, for what it was created to do it
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Where and when was that, if you don't mind saying?
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One team is even working with the producers... (Score:2)
"One team is even working with the producers of Sesame Street to teach vocabulary to kindergartners in Atlanta. "
It's not saying much about India.
It's not saying much about Atlanta either.
It's *certainly* not saying much about IBM...
I can tell you, living in Atlanta now, this is an improvement.
"America First", right..... (Score:2)
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After all the talk about "America First". Trump is definitely not making that happen. Whether it's because he doesn't know how to work the political scene, or he doesn't care when it comes to major corporations (even declining ones), it isn't happening.
Only an idiot would think Trump was going to do anything so grand about unemployment to start with. He's the President, not the king he believes himself to be, and the "hometown employment issues" are caused by several factors, not all of which he has the power do anything about.
Environmental issues and advances in technology are putting the coal miners out of work. Trump cant stop tech progress, and he's not able to convince everyone Global Warming isn't a thing.
Manufacturing? That's been going away so lon
What's in a name? (Score:2)
IBM Global Business Services is a GLOBAL business. It's in their name. It's their mission.
Locustlike? IBM, like any very large corporation, is intent on dominating their market. Domination. Not just success. Because if you don;t dominate, some other organization will. And they will take from you. Just the way it is.
Now, the question is how you choose to succeed at your mission - exceptional customer service? Scraping the value out of every transaction? Underpricing the competition? Driving costs down to for
Yet, their payroll in India... (Score:2)
Well they would. (Score:2)
It's five for the price of one!
India Business Machines? (Score:2)
I B M (Score:2)
Indian
Bowel
Movements
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Indian Bowel Movements
I
Bought a
Mac
(I used to work as a contractor at IBM back in the late 80s and this actually went around internally. The sad truth is I jumped ship to Mac)
Cheaper rates (Score:2)
Good as I am sure now we are going to see cheaper rates now from IBM .... BAHAHA who am I kidding
This was reported in 2012 (Score:2)
Re: Given this track record of revenue decline.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Isnâ(TM)t the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?
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Re:Given this track record of revenue decline.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Too bad you ACed your post. This deserves better moderation.
The Indians are Smart hard working people... However they don't work the same way that Americans do, for an American Company like IBM it needs enough Americans in its rank to maintain its corporate culture, even if they green card Indian workers to the States and pay them the salaries of the Americans in the same positions, they would pick up the American Culture and how business is done here, then they could repatriate back to India after a couple years and know how to do things the IBM way.
Such cost saving to deal with declining revenue, is the death spiral of a company. Because in essence you are getting what you paid for. So laying off Engineers with decades of experience, knowledge how to weed threw IBM bureaucracy, getting fired because they think a Mainframe Engineer cannot be easily trained to do IoT, vs Hiring some guy out of school with IoT on their Resume because they took a class on it, with little real life experience. In many ways this Mainframe guy with decades of expedience may be the perfect employee for this new technology. Because they are going to small devices with low Ram and low processing power, Just like the systems they worked on when they started.
IBM is an American Company, and it will need to run like one, Forgien workers are OK for them, but if they start putting their core values away just for cost savings, they are just going to be on their way out.
Re: Given this track record of revenue decline.. (Score:2)
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THe problem is pure greed.
Not in hiring Indians per say, but still charing 10's of millions of dollars and getting someone whose only experience is working help desk instead of an enterprise architect with 15 years experience for projects.
So a normal project that would cost $250,000 IBM wants to charge $10,000,000 but doesn't even include architects or maybe one senior level guy and the rest help desk gurus still studying for the MCSE implementing it.
Gee customers are going elsewhere. I can't imagine why? T
Re: Given this track record of revenue decline.. (Score:2)
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I have moderator points, but I can't find "+1 Math is Hard" in the list, so I'm commenting instead. It may be time to replace the batteries in your calculator, it thinks that there are 3 quarters in a year.
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It doesn't take a "smart" analysis to see the basic error in your figures and draw conclusions.
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Of course, depending on your perspective of *marker*, this is suspect.
From a "market to sell services to", certainly IBM is doing some stuff to India, but by and large it's using India workforce to support companies in other countries. While this can serve well when expertise happens to be in an inconvenient place to the customer, what IBM is doing is seeking lowest possible pay to even vaguely appear to be able to support their clients. Note this is *not* an indictment of India, wherever IBM went it woul
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Indian workers *can be as good or better*. However the ones IBM hires are *mostly* the ones who are note the best the labor market has to offer.
Not just IBM, generally any company going offshore (to any geo) is looking for cheap, and they forget that if you look *anywhere* for cheap, you won't get the best. When they offshore, they don't recognize realistic labor rates for the region, they don't recognize obvious degree mills and they chalk up any hard to ignore deficiencies during skill assessment to lan
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Basically from the time Sam Palmisano took the reigns, it's been about gutting the fundamentals more and more and seeing if things collapse. Even as the house of cards started to reveal itself in revenue decline, Rometty is just doubling down on Palmisano's playbook, because there is still millions to be gotten and despite the decline there's plenty of time for her to toss the hot potato to the next CEO, and even if her gambit fails, she and her group are still so wealthy as to not make much of a deal.
I wo
Re: Immigrant IBM employees in the US (Score:2)