Bitcoin Nears $17,000 After Climbing About $4,000 in Less Than a Day 464
As economists attempt to make sense of Bitcoin, the cryptocurrency rocketed above $17,000 for the first time moments ago, adding about $4,000 to its price in fewer than 24 hours. Security reporter Brian Krebs tweeted on Thursday, "Closing in on $17k per bitcoin now (mind you, it was almost at $16k less than an hour ago. This is totally fine." Late Wednesday, finance author Ben Carlson wrote: Bitcoin has achieved something I've always wanted to see in the stock mkt - a reverse 1987 (20% gain in a single day)
More important quote from Krebs (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:More important quote from Krebs (Score:5, Interesting)
"Rational"? Really? I do not think it means what you think it means.
Every time I look at this chart [bitcoin.com] I think: "Tulip bulbs"... of course there is once again no shortage of people telling me this is completely sustainable and will go on forever.
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This quote says it all:
Bitcoin has achieved something I've always wanted to see in the stock mkt - a reverse 1987 (20% gain in a single day)
It's all speculation - driven on by cheerleaders on the sidelines in the financial speculation media business. Kind of like the Trump campaign/presidency is all a substanceless shitshow driven on by cheerleaders in the news shitshow business.
Re:More important quote from Krebs (Score:5, Insightful)
It's perfectly possible that the rich people are offering large sums for small quantities of Bitcoin to push up the price then dumping large quantities when everybody sees it.
(aka: "Pumping and Dumping")
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Re:More important quote from Krebs (Score:5, Insightful)
"As economists attempt to make sense of Bitcoin"
I can assure everybody that no true economist is trying to make sense of Bitcoin.
Bitcoin con only go up for as long as people can manage to max out their credit cards, steal granny's savings, etc., to buy some.
This is not infinite.
After that it comes down. Hard. A few people will get very rich, a lot of people will get poor.
(Remember: Bitcoin only redistributes money, it doesn't ever create anything of tangible value)
Re:More important quote from Krebs (Score:5, Interesting)
(Remember: Bitcoin only redistributes money, it doesn't ever create anything of tangible value)
The NYSE and NASDAQ only redistribute money also. Do they not create anything of value?
Re:More important quote from Krebs (Score:4, Insightful)
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> use cases
Use cases are abstract. It's all theory. Who accepts cryptocurrency? The way things are going, who even understands it? Who even bothers? It's just entertainment to hear the numbers.
Suppose I have a car dealership. Now or soon I can sell a car for the low low price of 1 BTC. In this theoretical world, how do I use the cryptocurrency? What's the economics? People are driven to own cryptocurrency but not to spend it anyways, because it's so deflationary. Today I can buy a car. Tomorrow I can buy
So... (Score:3, Insightful)
This is going to crash hard, and probably fairly soon, and people will react with "We could not have foreseen this at all!"
And I will be over here, laughing at them.
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I still dont understand how anyone gives any value to that.
Is there a CryptoFraud For Dummies available?
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
Good introduction:
https://www.youtube.com/result... [youtube.com]
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This is going to crash hard, and probably fairly soon, and people will react with "We could not have foreseen this at all!" And I will be over here, laughing at them.
The Winklevoss twins won't be fooled again!
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
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I don't have 17 large handy and free to spend on a cryptocurrency today. I didn't have 12.5 large handy and free yesterday, to buy that same one Bitcoin.
So, I'm going to sit back and laugh. Because someone out there (likely more than one someone) is gambling foolishly on continued value jumps. Yes, some people stand to make a tidy profit on this. Some people are going to stay on this a little too long. Sure, that's a danger with the stock market too, but the stock market typically does not fluctuate this mu
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Unless you have a very high risk tolerance (by which I mean that you could afford to lose the money), I would say that your investor gave you very good advice.
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Re: So... (Score:2, Troll)
Plenty of exchanges have a minimum buy in. Trades are not buy-ins. Please retake basic stock market classes.
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Please retake basic stock market classes.
Why ? Bitcoin is not a stock, and the Bitcoin exchanges don't function like stock markets.
Assets and secondary markets (Score:4, Informative)
Why ? Bitcoin is not a stock, and the Bitcoin exchanges don't function like stock markets.
If you are buying bitcoin hoping it will appreciate in value relative to the dollar then it is a secondary market and as such it functions almost identically to a stock market as a practical matter. Bitcoin is just an asset like gold or beenie babies or pork bellies or frozen concentrated orange juice. Any discussion about the "value" of bitcoin is by definition in relation to how many dollars you can get for it which is no different than asking what the current price of a stock is in dollars. Stocks are assets and so is bitcoin.
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I don't know of any minimum for Coinbase. I know you can buy a lot less than 0.1 BTC (because I did). Assuming CB hasn't crumbled under the traffic.
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It doesn't make sense to buy so little that the amount you get is dwarfed by whatever the fees are.
Minimum buy is a POLICY of whatever service you are using AND your own good sense to
buy at least enough that you have a useful transaction that the fees aren't a significant fraction of.
Re: So... (Score:5, Informative)
Incorrect.
You can literally deposit $170 to GDAX (coinbase) right now (if it were not crashing) and buy 0.01 BTC, there is no minimum to open a trading account on coinbase.
To trade on equity markets you could go open an account with Fidelity, Schwab, or Robinhood (if app only is your thing) right now with no minimum and go trading to your hearts content.
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It's like any other investment or gambling, some people win and some people lose.
If you'd bought yesterday and sold today you'd have made a decent profit, who knows where the price will go tomorrow. It's fun to watch.
I hold a small number of bitcoins, had them for a long time and didn't pay anything for them so i'm waiting to see where the price goes, but even if it crashes i won't make an overall loss.
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Re:So... (Score:4, Informative)
The problem is that most of us don't have that sort of money sitting around
1 Bitcoin is internally represented as 100 million basic units (the "Satoshi"). You can buy any number of Satoshis, so it's possible to buy 0.001 coins for instance.
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You don't need "that sort" of money. I don't have anywhere near 1 bitcoin, and at this rate probably never will, but what I do have is worth a lot more than when I bought it. Whether that will still be true by the time I get home this evening is anyone's guess. :p
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Except when you look at how it can crash.
What happens when the value drops x%? Transaction volume goes up. How quickly will those transactions be added to the blockchain? Who controls that process? Currently the blockchain is at just under 500k transactions per day, and appears to have a significant backlog in confirming transactions.
The hype looks like it is posed to last a bit longer, but some people are really going to get caught with their pants down the way I see it; there is no easy de-escalation
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Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
People said that at 100, and at at 1000. Reality is no one knows where this is going to end up. I could just as easily see it be at 10 or 100,000 by the end of next week.
If you have a crystal ball, feel free to short BTC right now and make a fortune. My point remains, it is easier to say it will crash than say when it will crash or what fair value is.
Re:So... (Score:4, Interesting)
Regardless of what it goes to, BTC is so unstable that it is less of an investment than a gamble.
My biggest worry about this hype is that is kills cryptocurrencies completely, if BTC falls over.
Bitcoin is a "v1.0" currency. The fact that you have to run through 150+ gigs of blockchain transactions, and it can take days to have a transaction succeed is worrisome, and these numbers are not going down. One cannot really use it for microtransactions unless one tacks on an additional percentage to get parties to put the transaction at a higher priority than normal.
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
One cannot really use it for microtransactions
No, not if you want every transaction on-chain. The blockchain is an expensive resource.
You will be able to do microtransactions on the Lightning Network, where they will be done off-chain, and then only occasionally settled on the chain.
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Sure, because the exchanges have proven so secure. And if you're going to just bank through a processor, why not just use VISA or Mastercard?
The OP is correct: bitcoin is an interesting experiment. We might end up using blockchain currencies, but bitcoin has some fundamental problems that are going to have to be resolved.
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that would be approximately $1.3mil now.. if I could unload them.
That's not a big problem. There's about $2 billion worth of bitcoin traded in a day. Your $1.3 million could be sold over a few hours without causing a crash.
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There is $1.3MM in buyer liquidity in the top $200 of the order book right now on GDAX and that is one exchange.
Translating the above, you could put a market order to sell $1.3MM all in one go and it would only move the market ~$200 down from where it is now.
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as there is no way the true final price after the pop will be anywhere near 17,000.
Why? The true final price could be 100K. To make such bold claim as 'final' price will not be near 17K,
you need a prediction. If you have a prediction, then the value of it is based on how well you can explain your prediction based on true info you've analyzed.
Re:So... (Score:4, Interesting)
Every market will crash. Event the best investment will go south if you wait long enough. There are no horse and buggy companies anymore. Eventually grows and then fades.
The only thing that matters is getting in and out at the right time.
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Well, there actually are horse and buggy companies around. But they are quite the niche.
Example: http://www.buggy.com/ [buggy.com]
Also fun reading: http://www.popularmechanics.co... [popularmechanics.com]
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In abstract, sure, but that's an oversimplification. It's like if people were talking about the dangers of heroin use, and you said, "Well it's not really bad for you since we all die eventually."
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Re:So... (Score:5, Funny)
Or bitcoin could go to $1,000,000. I am a financial advisor and given how technologically amazing bitcoin is and how it is the future of all money, I'm betting on it hitting $1,000,000 before the end of 2018 and selling ALL my gold bullion, penny stocks, and tulip futures to put into bitcoin and I am now advising all my clients to do the same.
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--Yogi Berra
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It has a Tulip-Bulby feel to it, doesn't it?
LK
Re:So... (Score:5, Funny)
People complain [slashdot.org] when I mention Tulip Mania, so instead I will tell a joke
Jeremy Sloan asked his son Michael what he'd like for his upcoming sixth birthday. Michael said he wanted a hamster, so Jeremy visited the local pet shop and found the perfect hamster. The little guy was in the peak of health, so he bought it on the spot. He also bought a cage with a wheel, some food and a water bottle. As he was paying for the birthday present, the store owner said, "Any problems whatsoever, just come back here. I live right above the shop and I'll help you out any time you want."
Jeremy put the hamster and cage in his car and drove home. He left them in there until his son had gone to bed so that he wouldn't see them when he brought them in. Michael's birthday was the next day, so Jeremy got up early to wrap the presents and to check on the hamster. He was horrified to see the hamster was dead at the bottom of the cage; it's legs stiff in the air. He knew his son would be distraught as the boy had talked about nothing else for weeks. Quickly, Jeremy put on his coat and drove round to the pet shop and knocked on the owner's door. He explained the problem and the owner was quite understanding and gave Jeremy a new hamster, refusing payment for it
Jeremy asked, "What can I do with the old one? I don't want to bury it as the cat may dig it up and I don't want to throw it away in case my son sees it in the bin"
The shop owner replied, "What I do is mix up a strong sugar solution - about 1.5 kg of sugar to a litre of water. Bring that to a boil and then add the hamster. Simmer it about two hours, stirring periodically. It makes quite a nice jam."
Jeremy looked a little bewildered, but says thank you and raced back home. He gave the new hamster to Michael who was absolutely thrilled with it. He dashed off to play with it the rest of the day. Jeremy decided it was a good time to get rid of the dead hamster, so he tries the pet shop owner's recipe. He finds the sugar in the pantry and brings the water to a boil. After a couple hours, the mixture has become jam-like so Jeremy takes a spoonful, blows on it till it's cooler, and tastes it. It's absolutely disgusting. He's so revolted that he throws the rest of it out the kitchen window, into the flower bed below
A couple days later, Jeremy noticed that daffodils were springing up under his kitchen window, right where he tossed that awful concoction. "That's odd", he thinks to himself, "I've never had daffodils before"
Next day, his son asks him to take him to the pet shop to get some more food for his hamster. So Jeremy and Michael go to the store, and while Michael is looking at new hamster toys, the owner asks Jeremy, "Did you try that recipe I gave you?"
"Yes, but it tasted so awful that I threw it out the window. Odd thing is, I've got daffodils springing up there now."
"Daffodils?" asked the store owner, "Are you sure? You usually get tulips from hamster jam.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
IRS/Secret Service Crackdown (Score:2)
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Re:IRS/Secret Service Crackdown (Score:5, Insightful)
I believe NASDAQ plans on introducing trading on Bitcoin futures in the first half of 2018. That's assuming that Bitcoin doesn't crash and burn before then.
The crash is not scheduled until after the put options are in place. :-)
Re:IRS/Secret Service Crackdown (Score:5, Insightful)
If it crashes before then, buy in at the crash price... Being traded on NASDAQ will add legitimacy to bitcoin and likely cause another bubble.
Re:IRS/Secret Service Crackdown (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would the IRS care, as long as you are following the rules?
If anyone thinks they are going to make their Bitcoin millions and not pay the government their cut, they're an idiot.
will doop when some trys to cash out a big chunk (Score:2, Insightful)
will doop when some trys to cash out a big chunk also even just 1 coin will trigger lot's of IRS paper work.
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Capital gains taxes aren't that complicated.....
(sale value - (purchase value + trading fees)) * tax rate.
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just wait for that IRS audit
Cue the Price is Right! (Score:2)
Investment advice (Score:5, Funny)
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:So I am going in now (Score:4, Insightful)
Your scenario is unlikely, but possible. It would not surprise me if you were destitute in two weeks, and it would not surprise me that you are going to wish you actually did this. It would surprise me if nothing happened at all though.
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It would by no means surprise me if a lot of people already did that.
Consider: Loan interests are at an all time low, reaching 1% in some cases. Per anno. Here you can get 20% interest. Per day.
You think there aren't already people who started gambling everything they have and then some with the idea "just a few days and I'll have enough..."
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I'm sitting here at the sidelines. In my own house. That still will be mine tomorrow.
And then I'm gonna take a loan and buy his.
Steam no longer accepts them (Score:4, Informative)
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Well, yeah. I mean, according to https://www.coindesk.com/price/ [coindesk.com] it's gained over $2000 in value today. But it could just as easily drop $2000 in value tomorrow.
When it fluctuates that much in the short term, there's much less incentive for businesses to use it.
"Oh, I accepted this fraction of a Bitcoin as payment, but it just dropped so much that I lost money."
- or for the holders of Bitcoins -
"Oh, I just spent that fraction of a Bitcoin as a payment for this product, but it just jumped so much that I effe
Re: Steam no longer accepts them (Score:3)
No there isn't. Businesses mostly use payment gateways that sell the BTC immediately. There's no risk of price fluctuation to the business.
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Re: Steam no longer accepts them (Score:5, Informative)
"As of today, Steam will no longer support Bitcoin as a payment method on our platform due to high fees and volatility in the value of Bitcoin."
http://steamcommunity.com/game... [steamcommunity.com]
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>. Businesses mostly use payment gateways that sell the BTC immediately
The last time I saw this model, it was where you'd give USD to a gateway and get a credit measured in Bitcoin at the current exchange rate. Then you'd find an online store to buy something, also measured in Bitcoin (though really a USD amount converted using the current exchange rate). Then the gateway would pay the online store in USD.
So you give USD to someone who gives USD to someone, but you PRETEND that you're using Bitcoin. A
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Re: Steam no longer accepts them (Score:3)
Yesterday, we saw the first successful test of the Lightning network built on top of Bitcoin. This layer largely addresses the transaction price and scaling issues. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the news that kicked off this rally acceleration.
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Idiot commentator (Score:3, Insightful)
Late Wednesday, finance author Ben Carlson wrote:
Bitcoin has achieved something I've always wanted to see in the stock mkt - a reverse 1987 (20% gain in a single day)
Whoever wrote that is an idiot. No we do not want to see that kind of volatility in the market, positive or negative. That is NOT a good thing. Any time something skyrockets that fast in price it is pretty much invariably because something weapons grade irrational and/or criminal is going on. This is what happens with pump and dump [wikipedia.org] schemes and those rarely end happily.
Re:Idiot commentator (Score:4, Informative)
(x * 0.8) * 1.25 == x
Not sure what to make of it (Score:2)
I guess my question is this...how much of the increase is driven by people trying to throw money at anything that will get them a huge return? Or, when do financial advisors start recommending Bitcoin futures for Grandma's lump-sum pension payment?
I can't see this ending well because all it is is a speculative bubble. There's real money tied up in it, that's for sure, but in the end you don't even own stock in a company or a valuable commodity. All the cheerleaders are saying that the stock market is a casi
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All the cheerleaders are saying that the stock market is a casino anyway, but even if the market drops 30%, you still own stock. If Bitcoin drops 30%, you'll have to hope that it comes back so you can get your money out.
If you put your actual money into an investment and it drops 30%, you have to hope that it comes back up so you can recoup your original investment. That applies to any investment, no matter what it is.
It's all a damn casino. At the end of the day, a company crashing vs. bitcoin crashing can create the same end result; a pile of worthless shit.
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but even if the market drops 30%, you still own stock.
Stock prices have gone to zero before.
Stability (Score:2)
To big businesses, it might as well be monopoly money. Trying to work that against cost of goods sold, operating expenses, etc is in now way worth the effort.
Waiting for the bubble to burst... (Score:2)
Pop! Pop! (Score:2)
Sell NOW!!! It's useless as currency at this price with high transaction fees. This bubble is going to pop hard and fast and probably before Christmas.
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Of course, it's going to pop. The question is at what price, and what happens after that. In 2013, it popped from $1300 to $200.
Tulips baby. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Tulips baby. (Score:5, Insightful)
And those who can remember the past are condemned to watch everyone else repeat it!
Ignorance runs rampant (Score:2)
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Check again. It's around 15-16k now.
What don't people understand? (Score:3)
There is no basis for the inflated price. It's like junk bonds now; no rational thinking. I wouldn't be surprised if a government was behind it. The price will obvious self destruct and go down below market at witch time I probably will buy some for shits and giggles. I wouldn't be surprised if it went down to $200 per coin. The true value of bitcoin is in the number of people that hold onto them and won't sell them.
I just cashed in (Score:3)
Short? (Score:3)
What is the intrinsic value of bitcoin? (Score:3)
Companies typically have tangible assests and sales to support their stock prices. What is supporting bitcoin's valuation. I suppose one could argue that it's price is whatever somebody is willing to pay for it but that seems awfully close to being a Ponzi scheme. This feels like the dot com bubble that blew up at the beginning of the century when internet companies had ridiculously high prices without having any sales. Pets.com anyone?
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How does one go about cashing in a bitcoin to collect said $17,000?
Someone gives you their wallet address. You transfer your bitcoin to that address, and they transfer the $17000 back to you.
Usually, this is done with an exchange as middle man, but the principle stays the same.
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Places like coinbase.com [slashdot.org]allow you to do just this.
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Which is not how the tulip bubble happened. You couldn't point at anything, as what bubbled was a poorly regulated tulip futures market.
Tulip mania had more in common with the 2008 mortgage crisis that with Bitcoin.
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^^ Site is not secured right, and is a sales portal to their identity tracking crap. Beware.
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In my dreams it's worse. He's singing in Dutch, there.
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Any Bitcoin exchange that's still running. Once the crash starts, they will likely shut down very quickly - because they would have to buy BTC that will be worthless by the time they can move it.
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Can you just read the reply to the other person who already asked the same question? The answer is the same. The exchanges will shut down due to a lack of buyers.