Swedes Turn Against Cashlessness (theguardian.com) 403
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: It is hard to argue that you cannot trust the government when the government isn't really all that bad. This is the problem facing the small but growing number of Swedes anxious about their country's rush to embrace a cash-free society. Most consumers already say they manage without cash altogether, while shops and cafes increasingly refuse to accept notes and coins because of the costs and risk involved. Until recently, however, it has been hard for critics to find a hearing. "The Swedish government is a rather nice one, we have been lucky enough to have mostly nice ones for the past 100 years," says Christian Engstrom, a former MEP for the Pirate Party and an early opponent of the cashless economy. "In other countries there is much more awareness that you cannot trust the government all the time. In Sweden it is hard to get people mobilized."
There are signs this might be changing. In February, the head of Sweden's central bank warned that Sweden could soon face a situation where all payments were controlled by private sector banks. The Riksbank governor, Stefan Ingves, called for new legislation to secure public control over the payments system, arguing that being able to make and receive payments is a "collective good" like defense, the courts, or public statistics. "Most citizens would feel uncomfortable to surrender these social functions to private companies," he said. "It should be obvious that Sweden's preparedness would be weakened if, in a serious crisis or war, we had not decided in advance how households and companies would pay for fuel, supplies and other necessities." The report mentions a recently-released opinion poll, which found that seven out of 10 Swedes wanted to keep the option to use cash, while just 25% wanted a completely cashless society.
There are signs this might be changing. In February, the head of Sweden's central bank warned that Sweden could soon face a situation where all payments were controlled by private sector banks. The Riksbank governor, Stefan Ingves, called for new legislation to secure public control over the payments system, arguing that being able to make and receive payments is a "collective good" like defense, the courts, or public statistics. "Most citizens would feel uncomfortable to surrender these social functions to private companies," he said. "It should be obvious that Sweden's preparedness would be weakened if, in a serious crisis or war, we had not decided in advance how households and companies would pay for fuel, supplies and other necessities." The report mentions a recently-released opinion poll, which found that seven out of 10 Swedes wanted to keep the option to use cash, while just 25% wanted a completely cashless society.
Why would you want cashless? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why would you want cashless? (Score:5, Interesting)
Even from a business owner's perspective, there's nothing that says your business has to accept cash payments
But if few businesses accept cash, and you can't actually use cash to buy groceries, then you have a de facto cashless society.
For businesses, cash means crime. Both employee theft and robberies. Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs. Cashless self-checkout kiosks are cheaper and less error prone than those that handle cash.
I spent two months working in Shanghai last fall. I ate hundreds of meals, visited dozens of shops, and exchanged money with co-workers. Of all those transactions, this many involved cash: 0.
Re:Why would you want cashless? (Score:4, Insightful)
I can just wave my phone? Do I have to flip it open, or can I leave it shut? And how do I pay to refill the phone with the phone?
Of course the Chinese are going to have a system in place to track everything you do.
Re:Why would you want cashless? (Score:5, Informative)
I can just wave my phone? Do I have to flip it open, or can I leave it shut?
I have no idea how it works in Sweden, but in China you use an app to scan the merchants QR-code, and then enter a 6 digit PIN and/or use finger/face ID to confirm the transaction. It typically takes about two seconds. I set up my phone to use fingerprint only for transactions under 100CNY ($15 USD) and require both PIN and fingerprint for larger amounts.
And how do I pay to refill the phone with the phone?
You can top-up your balance by linking your WeChat or AliPay app to your bank account. This requires an additional bank PIN. Or, if you don't have a Chinese bank account, you can ask a friend to send you a "hong bao" peer-to-peer transfer.
Of course the Chinese are going to have a system in place to track everything you do.
They already have that and there is no secret about it. I was just there to get my job done, so I go along with the system, obey the law, and keep out of trouble. They certainly aren't going to change their policies because I object. As an American, it is not my job to "fix" China.
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That all sounds like it takes more than two second.
Do they not take cash in China?
Re:Why would you want cashless? (Score:4, Interesting)
That all sounds like it takes more than two second.
It only takes more than 2 secs if you don't already have the WeChat app open. But that is rare in China. WeChat is like SMS, voice mail, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Skype, Facetime, PayPal, plus a lot more, all rolled into one app. If you see a pedestrian in America, there is maybe a 50% chance that they aren't watching where they are going because their eyes and attention are on their phone. In China, it is at least 90%.
Even if you don't already have WeChat open, you can open it while you wait in the checkout line, so by the time you get to front, all you have to do is scan and tap.
Do they not take cash in China?
Most merchants still take cash, but more and more do not. As cash users dwindle, it just isn't worth the hassle and risk for businesses to keep cash on hand. Any merchant can accept e-payments, even informal unregistered businesses. A farmer was selling apples out of a wagon on the street in front of my apartment ... with a WeChat QR-code sticker on his scale. Just weigh, scan, and go.
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China sounds like a trip now. I was there in the 90s, studying martial arts in Wudang, and it was still pretty bare bones.
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Is that with chicken, pork or beef?
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Don't exaggerate. Not every country.
Just the intersection of "has oil" and "complement of (has nukes)".
Re:Why would you want cashless? (Score:5, Interesting)
I can just wave my phone? Do I have to flip it open, or can I leave it shut? And how do I pay to refill the phone with the phone?
Not sure about Sweden, but in the UK most places now do contactless EMV transactions with either a phone or a card. If you use a card, you just put it on the terminal and about a second later it beeps and it's done. If you use a phone, it's the same thing but you have to touch the fingerprint sensor as well (for Apple Pay, I've never seen anyone use Google Pay). I prefer to have a separate physical token that doesn't have the ability to run malware, so I don't use the phone, but with the card it takes less time than for cash:
My local convenience has self-service checkouts and it takes their UI a couple of seconds to step through the payment screen. I pop my card on the card reader before I tap the last step of the UI and it's done by the time I reach over to pick it up again.
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I don't trust contactless EMV cards' security, both with the ability to protect my cash and the ability of people to track my presence from afar with specialty readers. I do like chip cards over the magnetic stripe.
And certainly, securing a phone with a fingerprint, giving my fingerprints to Apple/Google, and having a phone capable of running malware (as opposed to being a phone) all seem stupid. To say nothing of making part of my day an unpaid minimum wage worker at a self-service checkout, as opposed t
Re: Why would you want cashless? (Score:4, Interesting)
This is all great... once weâ(TM)re cashless youâ(TM)ll love the convenience of negative interest rates or addition transaction taxes or fees.
Iâ(TM)ve gone back to using cash. Itâ(TM)s really not that inconvenient. And if you choose human interaction instead of the checkout machines, not only will you be annoyed less by the irritating machine, youâ(TM)ll have time to pack your bag whilst somebody faster and more efficient scans it and have some fun calculating the perfect amount to get fewer coins back in your change. Oh, and a moment of human interaction.
Off topic nitpick (Score:3)
This is all great... once weÃ(TM)re cashless youÃ(TM)ll love the convenience of negative interest rates or addition transaction taxes or fees.
I respect the fact that some of you like to run your posts through word or librewrite before you post. I do the same thing on some of my longer posts. But when you do post, please make sure you copy and paste as pure ascii text. Slashdot isn't smart enough to figure out smart quotes and other shit word and writer will stick in there.
Thank you, drive through.....
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I do the same thing with my bank balance open in a web browser and a spreadsheet. Doing a budget with cash doesn't make this any easier.
Re:Why would you want cashless? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs."
Every place I go where they need me to use a fucking chipped card, it takes about 15 seconds for the transaction. As a former cashier, I could've done the entire transaction in my head and had the change in the customer's hands in less than ten seconds.
Might be slower for you now because of all the clueless millennials in retail positions.
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Every place I go where they need me to use a fucking chipped card, it takes about 15 seconds for the transaction.
Countries currently going "cashless" are not doing it with chipped cards. You pay with your phone. Scan, tap, go.
Re: Why would you want cashless? (Score:2, Informative)
I'm Swedish. We use chipped cards a lot. But here, they work properly.
What moved us towards cashlessness though was "Swish", an app for instant money transfer between any two users, regardless of which banks they have. iZettle is also pretty common in small businesses; it's a chip card reader that connects to an ordinary smartphone or tablet.
This shift was rapid. Three years ago I had 55000 sek (about 6500 us$) in cash to deposit after the annual skydiving boogie our club arranges. Last year there wasn't en
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But you have to trust these odd startup companies with your cash. I don't trust them. Everyone's spying on everyone, and since they're startups the security is abysmally bad. Too many people are just far too trusting with new technology. A little bit of Luddite paranoia is a good thing.
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Countries currently going "cashless" are not doing it with chipped cards. You pay with your phone. Scan, tap, go.
I've been practically cashless for the last 10 years. I paid for everything with my debit card up until lately. I got the samsung pay app on my phone. I set it up just to try it out to see if it is more convenient. It is and now I pay for practically everything with a tap of my phone. It is faster and it is better.
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As a former cashier, I could've done the entire transaction in my head and had the change in the customer's hands in less than ten seconds.
As a former cashier you're not normal. What happens in the real world is a person spends some 15 seconds fucking around with their wallet and counting out before handing it to a cashier who as a professional math whizz will have it counted and change returned in mere seconds.
Cashiers aren't the holdup.
By the way what the hell takes you 15 seconds? For transactions under €25 it takes me less than 3 seconds to pay including the delay it takes to authorise. For over €25 it takes maybe 6 seconds. The
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By the way what the hell takes you 15 seconds? For transactions under â25 it takes me less than 3 seconds to pay including the delay it takes to authorise
That is been my experience. Most of the time when i pay for something with my phone. If it takes more than 10 seconds its because the cashier is staring at me wondering if I just paid for something with my phone.
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And everything about your transaction was tracked. Who bought, what you bought, what time, what location, and now that has been connected with everything else you have bought and where it was bought for your entire life with non-cash. At least with cash, they need to use some form of facial recognition system. Don't believe this info is valuable? Then why did/do so many companies have loyalty cards? I do not look forward to this 1984 everyone is so anxious to achieve.
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You wouldn't even have the money in your hand by the time I am done with my purchase.
Isn't that called shoplifting?
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The downside is that anyone who pays by waving their phone looks like a total douche.
I'm not kidding. Has anyone seen a person pay by waving their phone and NOT thought, "That person looks like a total douche"?
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Sure, that's why all the new point-of-sales terminals have the Look Like A Total Douche symbol on top so I know where to rest my iPhone. Much faster than using chip cards.
Meanwhile, what actually burns up time at the checkout is waiting for Greatest Generation Great Grandma to haul out her checkbook, laboriously write out her fiscal epistle, and get it approved by a manager.
Re:Why would you want any other way ? (Score:5, Insightful)
So who is going to buy me a smart phone, and pay for a data plan ? I don't have one and I don't want one. My simple dumb Trac phone with just text and phone service is cheap easy and my choice. I have a visa/debit card that I keep for emergency use only, and I have to remind myself to use it for an inquiry once every 90 days or the damn credit union suspends it. As a contractor I am paid by certified check thru my contracting office rather than by the current employer. I use and cash for almost everything except monthly bills which are paid out of my checking account via automatic withdrawal. Does my dope dealer have to pay square or some vendor to stay in business ? How do I give the 'vet' hanging out on the corner a couple of bucks for hamburger evey now and then. Uncle Sam is up in my grill enough with having every dollar I choose to spend analyzed by them.
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How do I give the 'vet' hanging out on the corner a couple of bucks for hamburger evey now and then.
You use your phone to scan the QR-code on his phone, or if he doesn't have a phone, you scan the QR-code sticker on the corner of his "Please Help" sign.
You really have no idea. Most bums in China accept both WeChat and AliPay. Likewise, most Swedish bums likely take Swish (never been to Sweden (not into blondes)). Peer-to-peer payments are trivial.
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The store will not keep the credit card number, so unless I have a store card, they will not be able to link sales to me
Note that they are not allowed to store the card number, but they are allowed to store a cryptographic hash of the card number and they are allowed to store the last few digits. A typical card number is about 53 bits, so storing a 256-bit hash means that the probability of a collision is so close to zero that they have an effectively unique identifier. Oh, and I think that they're also allowed to store the name on the card.
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" I got a check once. NEVER again. The amount of effort it took to actually convert that into money was incredible."
Go to bank, hand over check and card, wait for cashier to pay cheque into your account? Thats incredible effort is it? Jeez, another bone idle millenial no doubt.
"Yay tax avoidance. That's what you meant right?"
Obviously privacy issues are a bit beyond your comprehension. Here's an analogy your lonely braincell might understand - why do you have blinds or curtains on your windows, are you doin
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"That's a 40 mile round trip right there for me"
Its your choice to live in the middle of nowhere. I imagine other services are equally inconvenient for you.
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Go to bank, hand over check and card, wait for cashier to pay cheque into your account?
You lost me at "go to bank". In the past 10 years I've set foot in a bank perhaps 3 times or so, to open a business account, to get a mortgage, and to discuss a business loan. I wouldn't want to have to go there every time I receive money from someone.
In the past I went more often: to cash checks, withdraw and deposit money, etc... Can't say I miss it.
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Go to bank, hand over check and card, wait for cashier to pay cheque into your account? Thats incredible effort is it? Jeez, another bone idle millenial no doubt.
I don't know which country you are in but did you ever went to a bank?
Banks are typically open only during business hours, which seriously reduce your options if you have a regular job. The rare time where you can find a slot where the bank is opened and you are available, chances are that it is the same for everyone else and the lines are huge. Furthermore, low level bank employees (i.e. the ones you hand the check to) seem to be there only to tell you how to do things by yourself and getting yelled at for
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"I don't know which country you are in but did you ever went to a bank?"
I work about 300m from a branch of my bank so I'm there pretty often yes.
"Banks are typically open only during business hours, which seriously reduce your options if you have a regular job"
Depends on the bank. Mine is open saturdays along with most others in the UK.
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I'm not sure where either you or the grandparent live, but in the UK you can at least avoid the interacting with a human step in most banks. You grab an envelope from a stand, fill in your account details on the back, put the cheques inside, and then drop it in a post box in the bank and they'll process it that day.
Apparently a bunch of US banks now provide a phone app that lets you take a photograph of a cheque to process it. This leads to some slightly surreal experiences where the fastest way for on
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Most banks accomodate at least one day a week (and sometimes Saturdays, oh my gosh!) where they are open during extended hours so their customers with regular jobs don't need to worry.
I can't speak for your country's situation, but in Canada, if your bank doesn't have a similar setup, you're with the wrong institution and should consider switching if this actually poses a problem for you.
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Go to bank, hand over check and card, wait for cashier to pay cheque into your account?
Let's go through this shall we:
Go to the bank:
- 15min walk to the branch, get a ticket, stand in line for 15minutes.
Hand over check and card:
- Aside from the very confused looks I got last time I did this it then resulted in the teller getting paperwork out, opening the account, trying to upsell me on shit like a savings account, fill out the paperwork, check it, sign it.
Wait for cashier to pay cheque into your account.
- And wait I did. Some furious typing and several minutes later I was finally free of thi
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Cash if FAR cheaper. Having to accept credit cards entails a hefty surcharge by the credit card company, as well as a delay in getting paid, and the additional risk of credit card fraud. While a debit card is faster and cheaper it still involves network fees and equipment rental and service.
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Re:Why would you want cashless? (Score:5, Informative)
Cash if FAR cheaper. Having to accept credit cards entails a hefty surcharge by the credit card company
I was in China for two months last fall, witnessed thousands of cashless transactions, and this is how many times I saw anyone use a credit card: 0.
Cashless payments ARE NOT BASED ON CREDIT CARDS.
as well as a delay in getting paid,
WeChat and AliPay are instant transfers.
... and the additional risk of credit card fraud.
Credit card fraud is an AMERICAN problem. In other countries I can't spend your money just by providing semi-public information. Only Americans believe that is "the way it is supposed to be".
While a debit card is faster and cheaper it still involves network fees and equipment rental and service.
Equipment needed to accept cashless payments in China: A sticker with a QR-code. Cost: 2 cents.
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Equipment needed to accept cashless payments in China: A sticker with a QR-code. Cost: 2 cents.
How does the phone/bank/whoever know the amount I want to pay? I guess the shop needs a networked computer of some sorts after all, right?
Re:Why would you want cashless? (Score:4, Informative)
How does the phone/bank/whoever know the amount I want to pay?
At many shops, the price is embedded in a QR-code that appears on a LCD screen. You just scan it and tap to confirm. At low end shops, such as street stalls without electricity, there is a fixed QR-code sticker and the vendor just tells you the price. You key it in and tap your fingerprint to authorize.
I guess the shop needs a networked computer of some sorts after all, right?
No. In theory, the merchant can just look at your phone to see that the transaction completed. In practice, they will usually also have their cell phone which will display the completed transaction. Everything is cell phone based, and there is no wired network, nor even a need for electricity other than your cell battery.
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Cash if FAR cheaper. Having to accept credit cards entails a hefty surcharge by the credit card company, as well as a delay in getting paid, and the additional risk of credit card fraud. While a debit card is faster and cheaper it still involves network fees and equipment rental and service.
AFAIK cash is now more expensive to handle. Surcharges have decreased, chips has driven fraud close to zero (in over the counter retail), interest rates are practically nothing and terminals and network are cheap even for very small businesses. The cost of handling/storing/transporting cash is way up due to decreased volumes and higher safety standards (it's no longer socially acceptable that someone gets robbed due to their proffession). That's why in places like Sweden cash is disappearing fast. If you do
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Surcharges have decreased
In China, they have gone to zero. There are no cashless transaction fees as far as I can see. The amount received is alway exactly the same as the amount sent.
I guess they make money on the data, and on the float. If a billion users each have $1000 CNY ($150 USD) in their account, that is a trillion CNY ($150B USD) of float. The data must also be worth a lot. Google makes billion and billions, and knowing my search terms is a lot less useful than knowing what/when/where I buy. So the data collected b
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The government encourages it too, because aside from the surveillance it also means that people pay sales tax.
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Cash if FAR cheaper. Having to accept credit cards entails a hefty surcharge by the credit card company
Maybe in your country. In mine:
Having debit cards is essentially free. Having credit cards has a very tiny surcharge thanks to none of these stupid packages offered by every credit card company as a reward that are passed on to the shop which is passed back onto the consumer who thinks they got something out of the deal. The risk of credit card fraud is essentially zero with modern chip+pin and where it exists the consumer is 100% protected.
By comparison dealing with cash involves handling cash which involv
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With cash you need physical security, fraud checks to make sure employers do not skim money, protection when transporting money to the bank, safes for overnight storage of cash registers.
Handling cash is extremely expensive. All you need for credit cards is a card reader and a phone.
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Re:Why would you want cashless? (Score:4)
Cash requires time and money as well. If
But you can't stuff your mattress with cashless transactions and lay on it like old dragon. Also burying cashless transactions in old mason jars in the back yard is a pain in the ass. If you use a card then you have dig them all up every 2 or 3 years when they expire.
There is something to be said about a mattress stuffed with 100 dollar bills. Oddly, I can't think of any good ones at the moment.
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Why would you want a cashless society? Having the ability to pay in cash doesn't require you to do so yourself. I can't wrap my head around the fact that there are some people who actively want fewer choices even when the alternative options require nothing from them in terms of action or cost.
As an individual, no, you don't want that. Cash-in-hand carries some obvious risks like loss or theft, and a few less obvious ones, like (hyper)inflation and devaluation. Money-in-the-bank comes with a "we won't steal from you, honest"-promise that is usually a national scandal if it gets broken, but it does happen like when a bank goes AWOL or bust overnight. Then there's the loss of control ("Cyprus template"). The obvious problems and their mitigations are well-known and well-understood. The other stuff,
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For governments, cashless means unprecedented control. You know, civil forfeiture with less smell of "the government is stealing from me!" Which is exactly why economists are creaming their pants at the idea. Bank problem? Just steal everybody's bank balances and done. Bank runs? Impossible because without cash nobody can get their money out. Monetary policy, no matter how onerous, becomes much easier to just force onto the population. And so on.
This one argument alone is far more important and compelling than all your other ones put together. And it's ironic that some of us here who have been so against DRM, SaaS, Facebook and Google, are either blase about or actively support the demise of cash money. As far as I'm concerned they are all of a piece. They are all examples of the powerful extending their control further and further over every aspect of our lives. Ultimately, they all reduce our freedom and our autonomy. It seems that some here are
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Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs.
Not in my experience. (Note that self-service kiosks aren't really a thing outside of vending machines where I live so my experience always involves cashiers.) For cashless you have to tell the cashier to use a card, wait for them to turn on the card/NFC terminal, wait for the terminal to recognize the card/device, wait for the server to issue a challenge, enter your pin and then wait for your response to be verified. Takes twenty seconds if everything goes well and up to a minute if something goes wrong an
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Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs.
Not in my experience.
You should get a passport and expand your experiences. There are many things America does well. Consumer retail transactions are not one of them. The rest of the world is WAY ahead.
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Even the hookers, blow and blackjack?
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Even the hookers, blow and blackjack?
You have to go to Macau for blackjack. The hookers on Nanjing Lu (a huge pedestrian mall in downtown Shanghai) accept cashless transactions. Why not? Cash transactions are especially dangerous in their profession.
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No, tax is something that we (society) agreed upon in exchange for other services. That is, we pooled some of our assets together to be able to build roads, hospitals and schools. Sure, some like this agreement more than others, and some, like you, don't like it at all. The mystery is why nutjobs like you don't move to some uninhabited corner of the world and live off the grid, only interacting with other nutjobs. Now let us, the rest of society, to be in peace, not needing to hear your tinfoil, paranoia-fi
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People don't go live off-grid because they're even more likely to get robbed there and even less likely to get anything in return for what's taken from them.
Giving someone something they didn't ask for after forcibly taking their money doesn't make it not theft. Even if it's something that they would have given money for voluntarily. The lack of choice is what makes it theft. By that standard, taxes are theft, because you don't get to decide that you would rather not have the services, and then get out of p
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"Theft" is not a useful word here. In a democracy, taxes are voluntarily imposed by the people of the country, so it's us enforcing our own rules on ourselves. If you don't like them, you're free to campaign against them. You don't actually have to pay taxes, but apparently you think it worthwhile to live in something like mainstream society and accept the benefits thereof.
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It's not "voluntary" when some people make decisions for other people. The People collectively are not a person who can makes unitary decisions about only himself that can rightly be called voluntary.
As for moving somewhere else to not pay taxes, you seem to have missed the whole point of my post, which was that you can't. States tend to spring up wherever there are no states, and those states tend to tax. Even somewhere you might say has "no government" like Somalia, has a lot of small governments: every w
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A lot of people want "progress" because it's new and different. They also want self-driving cars that will make their cars illegal to drive (and they won't be afford). They seem unable to process that adding technology isn't always a good thing. Anyway, off to vote on a computer with no paper trail...
Re:Why would you want cashless? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a bank scam. They want to avoid a situation like Japan or Iceland where people started to buy safes to keep cash at home because negative interest rates meant that banks were charging fees for cash deposits.
The whole banking system in Europe is corrupt. From Ambrosiano to Libor scandals, from the Swiss hoarding nazi gold to HSBC laundering drug money, from Latvian banksters to Maltese murderers, it's a huge network of thieves and common criminals. Even Wells Fargo and their fake accounts don't come close to the level of European crooks.
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It sounds like the motive for this "cashless" system is to keep the increasingly-widespread use of electronic payments from being completely controlled by private parties like banks. What doesn't make any sense to me is why the government can't just roll out a public electronic payment system, to compete with the private ones (with the advantage of not having to turn a profit doing so), which it can leave just as they are without shutting them down... and also continue having the public cash system as well.
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Governments get to stop tax avoidance on every transaction.
On some type of pension?
Governments get to set up no buy lists. No alcoholic beverages. No smoking. Buying magazines and publications gets totally restricted. No gambling on a pension. No holidays to other nations.
Spending on education gets more support. Stop attending approved education and the gov support stops.
The obligations to keep getting support on an allowance card start to become a lo
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Why would you want a cashless society? Having the ability to pay in cash doesn't require you to do so yourself.
Depends who you are. Having the ability to pay cash requires you to cover the expenses of handling cash. Businesses are proponents of cash-less systems as it reduces the cost of handling and banking cash, increases security through theft avoidance (both external and via employees), and also reduces time.
From a personal point of view I hate handling cash with a passion. I don't carry any on me unless I travel to a card-unfriendly country. The only cash I have around me is a few coins for the occasional parki
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>Why would you want a cashless society?
Because it will cost money to society to support an option of cash
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It's pretty simple. Cashless is convenience and if you trust the system that is good value. If you do not trust the system the current one or a possible future one, then cashless means relinguishing control, especially if you lose the option to freely use cashless (that is, with a low threshold, so it has to be easy). Multiple players love getting that control. It means having a record of all your transactions, and having the option to make money with them in all possible manners, including negative interes
Cash is king (Score:5, Insightful)
No matter what anyone says, when power goes out and communications infrastructure goes to shit or gets attacked, regular hard currency will still work until the human race forgets how to add and subtract.
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until the human race forgets how to add and subtract.
Have you been to America lately?
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There was someone on slashdot who had invested heavily in bitcoin. He lived in Puerto Rico. He signed on shortly after the hurricane and had no way to buy goods (or maybe he had a little cash, but was very worried.).
There is also the possibility of electronic 'cash' (Score:4, Informative)
Cash doesn't have to be paper. An electronic unit with a battery that can hold an electronic counter can function perfectly as an electronic version of cash, without involving banks and going through bank transactions each time.
It seems this option is totally ignored by everyone though.
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We tried that in Sweden. It was even called "Cash", and was an added function on your credit/debit card. The banks forced all shops etc to replace their card terminals at great expense. Nobody understood what the point was, so it was completely ignored. Now it is gone and the embarrassment forgotten.
How can businesses refuse cash? (Score:5, Interesting)
That part of the submission confused me - if payment is offered and If it’s the coin of the realm, how can they legally decline it? It’s not like “cashless” transactions aren’t using the same currency.
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There are plenty of shops and restaurants in Swden that have signs with "we are cash free".
They have the right to accept or decline anyone as a customer, so they just think they can live without the customers who insist on using cash.
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How does a tourist pay for anything?
But wait....my phone was stolen, lost, or broken...now what? Go get another phone, but how do I pay for THAT?
Or I'm only there for 2 days and a night, I don't need a phone to do what I need. Is there something else that can do the electronic transfer that isn't a phone (and should be super cheap)?
I forget my wallet with cash and stuff all the time...or leave it behind for safety)...no problem, stop by a bank branch and get some cash for a day or two (or at least dinner)
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It says on many currencies "good for debts public and private", but if there's a decently-readable "No Cash" sign on the front door (before your transaction begins, i.e. before you incur the debt), then the business is within its rights to specify how they will accept payment.
If that information isn't made available before the debt is incurred, e.g. no sign, and they've already made your coffee, then you can offer cash, and no reasonable magistrate is going to convict you (even if the police could be bother
Re:How can businesses refuse cash? (Score:4, Informative)
And on many currencies it doesn't say "good for debts public and private". I checked the law for the Netherlands (Euro zone, unlike Sweden) some time ago. Here: "legal tender" mostly means means that you're not allowed to copy it. There is no rule that someone has to accept banknotes or coins even for settling a debt. Try paying your phone bill using one-cent coins... many smaller (MVNO) providers don't even have a physical store.
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if payment is offered and If it’s the coin of the realm, how can they legally decline it?
Just because something exists doesn't make it a legal mandate. You're probably confused because you don't understand the legal mandate, even in the USA.
Just because something is legal tender does not mean it needs to be accepted for services rendered. All it means is that legally the *government* and a registered creditor must accept is as a method of extinguishing debt. i.e. the only people who care about legal tender are the government collecting fees and taxes, and your bank which legally must if request
Re: (Score:2)
Solution via annoyance:
Locate any store that doesn't accept physical currency, have cash on hand for full very large transaction.
Select a massive amount of stuff and head to register.
Oh what, you don't take physical currency, restock your shelves.
Make sure to take only one of everything, and from all about the store. Especially frozen stuff, it has be be put back quickly or discarded.
Open a soda to drink while you are shopping. Oh wait, you won't even accept payment for it? Thanks!
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Sweden has gone off the deep end of late. (Score:3)
A country once to envy, now, I'd be inclined to avoid most things they say and do. Total head in the sand people over there.
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I don't see how desiring anonymous payment processes is backward. At present cash is the only anonymous scalable transaction system. You might suggest crypto currencies but at present they're not practical as a mass consumer market payment system. There are exchanges offering Visa cards, but this isn't any better than a normal Visa card, all your transactions go through the Visa card system and are tracked!
Do you really want everything you buy, the quantity you purchase it in, the time you purchase it an
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
As a Swede living in Sweden.
His perception hasn't even scratched the surface of the real change.
The coming 10-30 years in Sweden will be a cautionary tale for everyone.
Banks are pushing. Swedes are feeble creatures. (Score:2)
Swedish people hate to not be "modern" and embrace it without any second thought.
There are shops not accepting cash and this is considered a "Good Thing".
Most bank offices are "cashless"
I have heard swedes argue that we must remove the cash, because it costs to much.
Banks have done a good PR job.
There needs to be better regulati
Tourists... (Score:3)
The problem with the various cashless options is that a lot of them are country or region specific, so when you have tourists visiting it's often difficult for them to make use of the local payment systems,especially since many such systems disallow registration from users outside of the country.
Wait, what? (Score:2)
while shops and cafes increasingly refuse to accept notes and coins because of the costs and risk involved.
Isn't notes and coins the LEAST costly, and by some extension, less risk involved than most other payments?
Aren't there transaction fees to most payment methods to begin with? What am I missing here?
7/10 Swedes want to keep cash; 25% want cashless (Score:3)
The remaining half a Swede could not be reached for comment.
Re: Crypto is one solution (Score:4, Funny)
If by "obvious" you mean "obviously stupid".
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Re:Crypto is one solution (Score:5, Informative)
It's important to differentiate the form of coinage from the backing medium. Coinage often has little or no intrinsic value. This is especially true of paper promissory notes, which cost a tiny fraction of their face value to produce and have few other possible uses (uncomfortable toilet paper, really tacky wallpaper, or a convenient object for arranging your cocaine in lines). Currencies are typically backed by some promise from an organisation to exchange them for something else. For example, the one Pound Sterling could originally be redeemed for one pound of sterling silver. Most modern currencies are established by fiat: a law requires that they can be used to settle any debt, including taxes, so their value is based on the number of people who have debts that can be settled by the currency.
A crypto currency simply provides an implementation mechanism that allows you to maintain a ledger recording transactions without a single central point of failure. This would address the concerns in TFA, where people are worried that if, for example, the Russians invaded they'd be able to shut down all commerce in a region by flipping a few config options in a computer.
Most crypto currencies have difficulties replacing real-world currency uses because they are entirely decoupled from any store of value in the real world. Ideally (gross oversimplifications follow), the monetary supply should reflect the economy. When more value is created in the economy, more money should be created to represent it. When value is removed from the economy, the money supply should contract by a corresponding amount. The money supply should expand slightly faster than the economy so that holding money is discouraged as a means of holding value (you want people to invest in things that improve productivity, not keep piles of cash under their bed).
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US Governemt does not control USD (Score:3)
Re: Crypto is one solution (Score:5, Informative)
The US could literally print $20 trillion dollars in $100 bills and pay off their bond holders as they fall due. Of course, this would cause inflation to shoot up, but the debt would be paid.
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Many of us are aware and anxious about that. However, like with Facebook, Google etc, the convenience is just too compelling.
We use a credit/debit card in shops, and phone (via a system called "Swish") for transactions between people (and, increasingly, to shops). Even street beggars and children selling stuff for charity or their class trip accept Swish.
Some store chains have tried their own phone payment solutions, but they are - just as Apple pay and the likes - completely ignored.