Microsoft Attempts To Spin Its Role in Counterfeiting Case (techcrunch.com) 170
Eric Lundgren, who has spent his life working on e-waste recycling programs, was arrested and charged with "counterfeiting" Microsoft restore discs earlier this week, part of a controversial, years-long legal fight that ended when an appeals court declined to overturn a lower court's decision. Lundgren argued that what he was offering is only recovery CDs loaded with data anyone can download for free. In an interview with The Verge, he said, "Look, these are restore CDs, there's no licenses, you can download them for free online, they're given to you for free with your computer. The only way that you can use them is [if] you have a license, and Microsoft has to validate it.?" Lundgren was going to sell them to repair shops for a quarter each so they could hand them out to people who needed them. Shortly after the Lundgren's was arrested, Microsoft published a blog post which stridently disagrees with Lundgren's characterization of the case. From a report: "We are sharing this information now and responding publicly because we believe both Microsoft's role in the case and the facts themselves are being misrepresented," the company wrote. But it carefully avoids the deliberate misconception about software that it promulgated in court. That misconception, which vastly overstated Lundgren's crime and led to the sentence he received, is simply to conflate software with a license to operate that software. [...] Hardly anyone even makes these discs any more, certainly not Microsoft, and they're pretty much worthless without a licensed copy of the OS in the first place. But Microsoft convinced the judges that a piece of software with no license or product key -- meaning it won't work properly, if at all -- is worth the same as one with a license.
[...] Anyway, the company isn't happy with the look it has of sending a guy to prison for stealing something with no value to anyone but someone with a bum computer and no backup. It summarizes what it thinks are the most important points as follows, with my commentary following the bullets. Microsoft did not bring this case: U.S. Customs referred the case to federal prosecutors after intercepting shipments of counterfeit software imported from China by Mr. Lundgren. This is perfectly true, however Microsoft has continually misrepresented the nature and value of the discs, falsely claiming that they led to lost sales. That's not possible, of course, since Microsoft gives the contents of these discs away for free. It sells licenses to operate Windows, something you'd have to have already if you wanted to use the discs in the first place.
Lundgren went to great lengths to mislead people: His own emails submitted as evidence in the case show the lengths to which Mr. Lundgren went in an attempt to make his counterfeit software look like genuine software. They also show him directing his co-defendant to find less discerning customers who would be more easily deceived if people objected to the counterfeits. Printing an accurate copy of a label for a disc isn't exactly "great lengths." Early on the company in China printed "Made in USA" on the disc and "Made in Canada" on the sleeve, and had a yellow background when it should have been green -- that's the kind of thing he was fixing.
[...] Anyway, the company isn't happy with the look it has of sending a guy to prison for stealing something with no value to anyone but someone with a bum computer and no backup. It summarizes what it thinks are the most important points as follows, with my commentary following the bullets. Microsoft did not bring this case: U.S. Customs referred the case to federal prosecutors after intercepting shipments of counterfeit software imported from China by Mr. Lundgren. This is perfectly true, however Microsoft has continually misrepresented the nature and value of the discs, falsely claiming that they led to lost sales. That's not possible, of course, since Microsoft gives the contents of these discs away for free. It sells licenses to operate Windows, something you'd have to have already if you wanted to use the discs in the first place.
Lundgren went to great lengths to mislead people: His own emails submitted as evidence in the case show the lengths to which Mr. Lundgren went in an attempt to make his counterfeit software look like genuine software. They also show him directing his co-defendant to find less discerning customers who would be more easily deceived if people objected to the counterfeits. Printing an accurate copy of a label for a disc isn't exactly "great lengths." Early on the company in China printed "Made in USA" on the disc and "Made in Canada" on the sleeve, and had a yellow background when it should have been green -- that's the kind of thing he was fixing.
Microsoft is slime... (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft is slime and no amount of PR spin is going to change that.
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Hardly matters as they laugh their way to the bank. Being slimy has proven to be quite rewarding. When doing your Pavlovian/Skinner experiments, do you punish the dog for hitting the correct button?
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Recent image of Bill Gates. [sciencealert.com] Undeniable... looks older than his years. Something eating him out from inside?
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www.sciencealert.com/images/2018-04/processed/BillGatesDisease_web_1024.jpg
I have to admit the color tones were nicely done, but please...
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Microsoft is slime and no amount of PR spin is going to change that.
I'm sorry, but I must strongly disagree with that characterization of Microsoft!
You slander all decent slime with your insult, Sir!
Strat
Re:Microsoft is slime... (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course Microsoft is slime, but that doesn't change the fact that they have the right to decide how they want their software to be distributed. In their Terms of service [microsoft.com] for downloading a Windows ISO it says:
If we don't allow them to limit how their OS is distributed then surely we can't insist that the source code needs to be made available when distributing GPL software.
And it seems dangerous to turn a blind eye to making indistinguishable knock-offs of operating system DVDs that could easily be modified to pre-install malware. Microsoft and Dell would not want their logos put on something that wasn't made by them.
Re:Are they? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Here's what actually happened.
The guy convicted wasn't just burning a few discs. He had 80,000 manufactured in China. Not CDRs, proper printed discs with labels made to look like the real thing. And then he tried to pass them off as real to customers. He expected a tidy profit from this investment.
Had he just been a good guy making discs for people who lost theirs he would have been fine. And Microsoft even makes the discs available for free download on their site, at least for Windows 7 and later (7 being
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You are doing pretty much what the article accuses Microsoft of doing. That is, confusing a recovery disk that contains no license with a copy of the software. From the article -
These discs are for repairing or re-installing a copy of the OS. They did not come with licenses and Lundgren was not selling or providing licenses.
If you think the article is wrong, then explain how and why that is.
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It's got nothing to do with licences. The discs were pretending to be something they were not (genuine Dell products), which is fraud.
Re: Are they? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Are they? (Score:4, Interesting)
The evidence presented in court suggests that claim was a lie. Microsoft's blog post has PDF versions of the emails submitted as evidence here: https://blogs.microsoft.com/on... [microsoft.com]
Note how we talks about it providing a steady source of income, and how the sale of 8,000 discs netted him $28,000. That suggests he was wholesaling them for $3.50 to his friend.
The most damning email is the one where he tells his friend about how hard it is to spot that his discs are fake, so good is the forgery.
He clearly was not doing the community a favour here, he was profiting off discs he passed off as genuine.
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Why can't it be both?
Abuse becomes their business. (Score:5, Insightful)
Windows 10 is possibly the worst spyware ever made. [networkworld.com]
7 ways Windows 10 pushes ads at you... [pcworld.com]
Re:Abuse becomes their business. (Score:5, Insightful)
This little tidbit from their Windows 10 EULA *should* make ANY intelligent computer user run SCREAMING away from ANYTHING Microsoft..
We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to.
If you're recycling computers and putting an MS OS back on it, you're nuts and deserve this kind of abuse. Most of the computer recyclers I've run into put a lightweight Linux distro on their recycled machines..
The court of public opinion wins.... (Score:2)
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'Public opinion' is more accurately reflected in the accountant's spreadsheets than in the tabloids.
Re: The court of public opinion wins.... (Score:2)
Couldn't this have been a revenue opportunity for (Score:3)
Microsoft?
If it's their disks and they're used for recovery, couldn't they ask the user to upgrade (for a fee, of course) to:
- Windows 10
- Office 360 (or other flavours)
- Visual Studio
- Online support
Thereby locking in the Microsoft experience and making it easier for customers to use the computers rather than considering putting Mint on them because Microsoft products are too much hassle.
At worst, this would be Microsoft being seeing as exploiting a market rather than beating up somebody who is trying to make their OS available to everyone.
Re:Couldn't this have been a revenue opportunity f (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a snag if you've got an old computer with a broken OS and no way to connect to the internet. The recovery disk helps with that. Upgrading to Windows 10 is impossible on most of the computers, and even if it weren't you have no OS to download the files to attempt to upgrade. So a recovery disk is the logical and seemingly legal way to do so.
However, Microsoft says these are "lost sales". The only logic where this makes sense is if they consider a user staying with an older product instead of throwing away the computer and getting a new one with a new OS pre-installed. Ie, being able to repair the computer.
Microsoft wants people to upgrade and is desperate enough for this that they're willing to let someone go to jail rather than allow broken computers to be fixed.
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That's what the smartphone companies do as well. I was in Silicon Valley where the CEO's complained about the "mend and make do" World War II mentality of their customers IT departments. To them, having to support old hardware was holding back software and hardware development as well as sales of new hardware.
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By a remarkable coincidence, if you pay the U.S. average electri
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Well, sure, if you leave it on all day. I think people on a budget who just don't run out and buy a new replacement aren't leaving the computers on all day. I think my mom has her laptop on maybe 1 hour a day or so.
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Yes it does?
One could argue it wouldn't even pay for itself in the time it took to become obsolete...
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According to legend, when Bill Gates when told China always pirates software, he said "How do we make sure they are pirating Windows [over some other OS]"
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Oh, no. Not this shit again (Score:1)
He didn't go to jail for burning the OS onto discs and distributing them.
He went to jail because he was committing trademark infringement by printing Microsoft and Dell logos on the discs and using trademarked names on his pirated discs.
If the discs would have been a plain label with only the logo of his company and something like "Operating System Restore Disk version 7" or "Operating System restore disk version XP" printed on them, he'd still be a free man.
Or if he wouldn't have been charging for the disc
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It is true he misused trademarks, and it is true that it would have been fair to punish him for that. It is not true that Microsoft had a bug up their ass about those trademarks. Their lawyers and witnesses were specifically going on about the "value" of the software. The software had no value without a licence. It is not true that the discs were pirated in any sane sense of the term.
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The software had no value without a licence.
While I'm totally sympathetic to the defendant...
Who are you to say that? They hold the copyright of that software. Maybe it can't be used without a license, but you don't get to say whether the value is in the license, or the copyrighted material he breached copyright on.
What if that was your software?
Re:Oh, no. Not this shit again (Score:4)
I think that's a misinterpretation as well.
The software has copyright on it. Whether it is free or paid for, making a copy is a matter of law. Sure the law may be flawed and sure this may defy common sense, but no matter the label used, he made copies of MS software and distributed them to third parties without any agreement allowing him to do so. The trademark violation and efforts to deceive about country of origin and 'genuine' microsoft software are problems, but not required for him to be in trouble.
Even if the software is no-cost, there are terms and conditions relevant to entitlement to copy (you can make copies for personal backup reasons because the law permits it, but not for redistribution). Otherwise, GPL and BSD licenses would not have any means to enforce it.
For MS, this is going to be a tricky thing to spin in a good light. In their defense, if someone did this and they or the company that actually made the media put in a rootkit, not just a straight download of MS software, then MS could have a different PR problem, not doing enough to prevent malicious software and people assuming MS did it. Of course getting this story big and explaining this angle would work better than talking about "lost sales" (which clearly was not the case here) and perhaps asking for leniency for this case would have made for better PR moves.
Of course he was *charging* for it to get profit, so sympathy for the person isn't *that* well placed, even if under the guise of recycling.
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But the software *was* genuine Dell and Microsoft. It's like putting a Ford badge on a Ford car.
In a way it's natural to have a confusion between the intellectual property itself and the carrier. For years that was the way copyright was enforced. And in fact the guy was in the business, partly, of selling these discs. But he wasn't selling
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Hate to say it, but it's not remotely like putting a Ford badge on a Ford car.
Ford puts Ford badges on Ford cars. If you were to put a Ford bade on a copy of a Ford card, no matter how good, it would still be counterfeiting and trademark infringment precisely because Ford did not make that car.
He was manufacturing physical CDs with the physical
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You can't know - Microsoft didn't make the discs.
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Well, sure. But why should anyone care?
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But you can use someone else's trademarks when they refer to the actual goods, and in this case the goods the customer is interested in is the software itself.
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He didn't go to jail for burning the OS onto discs and distributing them.
He went to jail because he was committing trademark infringement by printing Microsoft and Dell logos on the discs and using trademarked names on his pirated discs.
The discs are incapable of being pirated. There was and is no charge for the software on them.
If the discs would have been a plain label with only the logo of his company and something like "Operating System Restore Disk version 7" or "Operating System restore disk version XP" printed on them, he'd still be a free man.
Or if he wouldn't have been charging for the discs, he would still be a free man. But we are a nation of laws, and the law says that if you're making money off of someone else's trademark you're guilty of a crime.
But was he really making money, at 0.25 USD a disc?
I think this case is bullshit, and you should think it's bullshit too. But if a company doesn't defend their trademark they lose the protection under the law, so they had no choice but to let this case proceed whether they liked it or not.
Not saying MS or Dell are "good guys" or anything, but this is not a case of "going to jail for giving away Windows discs without a license", and anyone who frames it that way is intentionally being obtuse.
From the article summary, Microsoft didn't bring the case. They just piled on to help/goad the prosecutors.
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Wow AC, you're a complete bullshit artist. A good one, but a bullshit artist nonetheless. This case has nothing to do with trademark or copyright infringement. I especially like how you sympathize with the reader ("I think this is bullshit and you should too. BUT...") before leading them to the false conclusion. Craftsman's work sir.
Anyway, the core of the case is this: "But while software licenses transfer when computers change hands among individuals, commercial sellers like refurbishers must buy new lice [washingtonpost.com]
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Okay, apology due to original AC. Here's a link to the opinion issued by the 11th Circuit Court: http://media.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/unpub/files/201712466.pdf [uscourts.gov]
From the PDF: "Lundgren entered into a plea agreement in which he pled guilty to conspiracy to traffic in counterfeit goods and criminal copyright infringement. The government dropped the remaining charges."
So, while I went and spouted off before reading the opinion, the point remains - while they got him on "counterfeiting", the economic cost to
Re:Oh, no. Not this shit again (Score:5, Insightful)
The trademarks however are not worth $25 per disk with the trademark. Also trademark violations are a civil offense, they don't result in criminal trial that can lead to jail time but instead are resolved through a normal lawsuit process.
Intern or offshore? Why not both! (Score:2)
Wow. That Slashdot summary was almost English. But it least it showed a fundamental lack of understanding of how the legal system works. /s /.'s offshored "editors" strike again.
We're already calling it a counterfeiting case (Score:3)
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Looks like Microsoft was pushing the definition of counterfeit. And they got what they wanted, a precedent set.
Now, IANAL, but I suspect that there are advantages to winning a case of counterfeit vs copyright. There may be an entirely different federal law enforcement squad that handles each type of case. And the counterfeit cops have more automatic weapons and armored vehicles at their disposal.
They want it both ways (Score:1)
They want to be thought of as so ruthless that if one even commits the thoughtcrime of copying software, they will be prosecuted by the full power of Microsoft. This guy is a feather away from that ($0.25 cents a disc for free software? Is he even covering his DVD cost?) and is serving jail time. But they also want to be thought of as good guys making the world a better place. Kind of like the Goldman Sachs CEO saying he was doing "God's work" [businessinsider.com] prior to the malfeasance uncovered when the 2008 Financial Crisi
Two scenarios here: (Score:2)
Scenario 1) : There is more to this than appears. This could be corroborated by the harsh sentence he received as well as not a single disagreement by any court. Two courts upholding a verdict that making a copy of a free disk which can't be used without a license doesn't sound like we know everything about this case.
Scenario 2) : The legal system of the courts is fundamentally broken for letting it get this far. If it is as first appeared then this case should have been kicked to the kerb without ever havi
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Scenario 2 is correct -- the US "justice" system is fundamentally broken. It's designed to punish people who don't kowtow to prostitutors' and judges' whims, refuse a plea bargain, and exercise their right to a trial.
Any country that jails almost 1% of its population at a given time is fundamentally broken and deserves to collapse.
What's the appropriate sentence here? Maybe some community service. Say teaching kids how to fix things. He didn't provide anything that M$ didn't provide for free, for downlo
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Any country that jails almost 1% of its population
Well hang-on, that's not the justice system. The judiciary here only upholds the laws as they are passed. That is the problem of the executive branch of the government that made these laws in the first place.
What's the appropriate sentence here?
You've jumped into sentence implying that the legal system was working as intended. If the legal system is broken as per scenario 2, there would not be talk of a sentence.
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Legislative generally makes the laws.
The problem is on multiple levels, actually. Unjust laws would essentially be void without people willing to work to convict people of violating them (judges, juries, DAs). They'd also be void if no one was willing to enforce them (cops, jailers). Thus, virtually everyone working for the court or enforcement system is part of the problem, whether they use the "just following orders" excuse or not.
Re: Two scenarios here: (Score:1)
The crime was attempting to pass off his own disks as Genuine, which they were not, selling them, and importing them.
The sentence was harsh because he demonstrated no remorse for violating customs laws, and refused to acknowledge that there IS a difference between risks burned in some random Chinese factory vs. ones supplied by Dell or MS. The difference is a matter of provenance, it's the guarantee that the contents are legitimate unaltered copies of the software.
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WAS he actually putting altered software on the disks? If not, then there is no functional difference between the MS/Dell disks and what he was producing.
Nah, fuck everyone who's involved in this railroading. Do you really want to pay taxes to jail someone who didn't harm anyone? Ironically, his actions actually saved MS some bandwidth.
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The crime was attempting to pass off his own disks as Genuine
Was it a disk? Did it contain the software stated? Don't butcher the English language any more than Microsoft's "Genuine advantage" team already has. Those disks were 100% genuine unless you can tell me that they either contained some nasty viruses instead of the promised software, or maybe they weren't discs at all but 45rpm singles cut down to fit in a CD case.
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So they weren't actually discs at all, but pictures of discs?
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Is it an arguing tactic?
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The courts have a ignorance factor. They are not experts and instead rely upon expert witnesses. The problem here is with them granting extra credibility to the Microsoft witnesses.
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The courts have a ignorance factor.
For technical arguments I would agree, but this wasn't decided on anything technical, but rather contractual. It's literally the core business of the courts to rule on cases of licenses and contracts all written in their own very nasty form of legalese.
If the courts are to blame I'm more inclined to think that the Microsoft legal team stacked the deck in the license agreement somehow, rather than pure ignorance.
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Manufacturing and selling disks with software he didn't have the right to have in the first place. Is it so bloody hard to understand?
Selling as in making them to earn money.
Selling them as original - LEGAL - discs with extra effort spent to make them as close as possible to the original - LEGAL - discs so that their customer wouldn't complain.
Why is the last part so important? Because they wanted to sell their discs as original - LEGAL - discs to people that wanted original - LEGAL - discs.
This is a standa
Why didn't he just private label the disks? (Score:2)
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The problem was with importing the disks. Sure, he did this to save money so that they could be sold for only $0.25. Seems like a good idea at the time. The snag though is if there were trademarks being imported from China then it's a crime (thanks to the vast armies of lobbyists). If he had these disks made in the US then it would have been only a civil matter and not a criminal one.
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The problem was with importing the disks. Sure, he did this to save money so that they could be sold for only $0.25. Seems like a good idea at the time. The snag though is if there were trademarks being imported from China then it's a crime (thanks to the vast armies of lobbyists). If he had these disks made in the US then it would have been only a civil matter and not a criminal one.
Yes, that was stupid on his part but had he not made them look like genuine Dell recovery disks he wouldn't have had a problem. I don't understand why he didn't use his own branding, the disks would have worked the same and the whole counterfeit trademark issue goes away.
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I don't understand why he didn't use his own branding
You don't? To defraud the people receiving the discs... He literally admits to it in the emails.
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I don't understand why he didn't use his own branding
You don't? To defraud the people receiving the discs... He literally admits to it in the emails.
I get that; I was wondering because anyone with pulse should realize that is a bad idea. He could have one that an avoided all the trouble and still sell them for 25 cents; that's why I have little sympathy for him.
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The real lesson (Score:4, Insightful)
You use windows, go to jail. If he used linux he wouldn't be going to jail.
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English, Jim - but not as we know it (Score:4, Interesting)
You appear to have left out the thing, owned by one Lundgren, that was arrested.
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Replying to undo my accidental mod.
Right of first sale / forced to rebuy keys is als (Score:3)
Right of first sale / forced to rebuy keys is also part of this.
At first they where saying each disk costed about $299 the full retail price of windows and then later MS said we just make refurbishers pay $25 an system for a new key.
But lost in all of that is the MS clams that the paid for key is voided at or before it get's the to refurbishers. But in some cases systems going there may have an OEM key + an CORP site key on them.
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The right of first sale does not give you the right to make 80,000 copies of something you had a license to use.
Misused trademark on custom-made disks (Score:1)
Who cares? (Score:2)
Nice timing (Score:2)
How nice of you to come out and state these things are pretty much worthless AFTER he got sentenced. How very bloody convenient for you and your fucking profit margin you lying stinking sacks of SHIT.
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He sold them at near cost, 25 per disc, for a software that is entirely useless without a valid license already, for people who don't have a recovery disc (though they could've just gotten it themselves online for free, but hey, not everyone is tech savvy, hence the need for people like him to provide said discs)
If microsoft cared about customers, they would keep offering downloadable ISOs of their discs on their site, long after the support for it is over.
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Price doesn't matter as the content was not his to license in the first place.
Re: Sigh (Score:1)
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Your snark only veils ignorance in this instance.
Dislike it all you want, but MS was the copyright holder, and they have the right to determine how *every* *copy* of their software is made and distributed, fair nose notwithstanding, and this quite clearly wasn't that.
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He wasn't selling licenses. He was selling CDs with data on them.
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Copyright is a legal right created by the law of a country that grants the creator of an original work exclusive rights for its use and distribution.
So, let me get this straight. He was selling (violation) copy-written works he'd copied (violation) to disks and distributed (violation) for a use not approved by the author of the work.
He's not allowed to copy anything without written permission, not allowed to sell a copyrighted work without written permission, and also not allowed to distribute a copyrighte
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He did not license it. The code did not actually work without a valid license from MS.
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An irrelevant example, as that is a completely different situation. Software is incomplete without the license. The book is complete.
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The software is entirely complete without the license, you simply can't use it.
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So for your "perfect" example the customer can get access bu changes on his side, while in the real case only the manufacturer can make access possible.
Are you mentally challenged?
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You're arguing that since the code did not have a key, it was not covered under copyright.
Person who replied to you is arguing that copyright exists, whether or not you can use the copy.
He's right, you're wrong. It's pretty simple really. Your reaction is making it clear who has the mental deficit here.
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You're an idiot. The contents of the disc are copyrighted by Microsoft. Only they are allowed to distribute the contents. It doesn't matter if he charged a penny, financial gain means money was charged regardless of his costs.
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For the average person with only one computer it becomes REALLY HARD to get the CD image and burn it when your computer is already a brick.
Brick? (Score:2)
Brick, really? You're fucking dumb as well. The computer functions regardless if its running an operating system or not. Bricked means the hardware itself is no long responding to user input. Not booting windows is about as far from bricked as you can get.
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Thank you for your very important definition, by which my car also still works when it's broken down but can be repaired by someone who knows how to do that.
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These discs did not have an operating system on them. They were copies of a restore disc which is freely available online from Microsoft and most major computer vendors. You can get them trivially over the internet, unless of course you have a broken computer. The discs he was selling was for $0.25, which is essentially the cost of the disk itself with no profit.
This is not at all the reason that copyright laws were written. And besides the case was mostly about trademark and not copyright. Yes, he mad
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> for financial gain.
You keep using those words -- it doesn't mean what you think it means.
By selling the CDs EACH for $0.25 ???
$0.25 was basically to cover the cost of operations.
Did he break:
* The letter of the Law? Yes
* The spirit of the Law? No.
But let's keep being focused on the tree and missing the complete fucking FOREST -- all those computers that could be SALVAGED.
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Trying actually reading what ArchieBunker said [slashdot.org]
Eric was NOT doing it for financial gain. The proof was that he was only charging $0.25.
It doesn't matter what Microsoft says they are worth. The price that Microsoft charges is completely irrelevant. HINT: It was a FREE download.
> MS sells the discs for the same price.
[[Citation]]
Can't have it both ways (Score:2)
If copyright is being protected by serial keys or DMCA-protected encryption, then copying the media without bypassing those copyright protection mechanisms isn't copyright infringement. All the person has done by redistributing such unaltered software is reduce the copyright holder's costs by doing the work of duplication
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If copyright is being protected by serial keys or DMCA-protected encryption, then copying the media without bypassing those copyright protection mechanisms isn't copyright infringement.
This is completely fucking false. You literally made it the fuck up. What is wrong with you?
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There's nothing holy or sacred about the law in itself unless it prevents people from being harmed.
Remember, the law used to support slavery, prohibit inter-racial marriage, and a whole host of other things we find abhorrent today.
It's mostly a code designed to control people, written by a bunch of impotent old people for sale to the highest bidder ... I mean lobbyist. Don't mistake legality for morality.
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The laws you speak of work to keep the GPL enforced as well.