Young Chinese Are Sick of Working Long Hours (bbc.com) 190
Young professionals in China are pushing back against employers who expect them to work around the clock, saying no to the decades old "rule of 996" -- working from 9am to 9pm six days a week. From a report: At the forefront are millennials who are often better educated, more aware of their rights and more interested in finding something fulfilling than the previous generation. And as only children (China's one-child policy wasn't eased until 2015), they are also outspoken and pampered. "In my experience young people, especially the post-90s generation, are reluctant to work overtime -- they are more self-centered," says labour rights expert Li Jupeng, one of many who have observed some millennials challenging the 996 concept.
The relative affluence of their parents and grandparents is part of the reason. China's rapid economic transformation has given rise to a sizeable middle class, with almost 70% of the country's urban population making between $9,000 and $34,000 annually in 2012. In 2000, that figure was just 4%. As only children, millennials are receiving a lot of support from their families -- including a financial safety net should their careers not go as planned. Although their options for pushing back are limited, some are no longer willing to put in long hours for a meagre paycheck.
The relative affluence of their parents and grandparents is part of the reason. China's rapid economic transformation has given rise to a sizeable middle class, with almost 70% of the country's urban population making between $9,000 and $34,000 annually in 2012. In 2000, that figure was just 4%. As only children, millennials are receiving a lot of support from their families -- including a financial safety net should their careers not go as planned. Although their options for pushing back are limited, some are no longer willing to put in long hours for a meagre paycheck.
Cue idiotic millenial jokes in 3,2,1... (Score:5, Insightful)
Amazing how each generation thinks the one that follows it are a bunch of losers for wanting something different than what their parents want.
Nobody likes being forced to work long hours. China's economy is getting to the point where a lot of Chinese finally have a choice in the matter. That's a good thing.
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Amazing how each generation thinks the one that follows it are a bunch of losers for wanting something different than what their parents want.
We are not making fun of Millennials for rejecting what their parents wanted. We are making fun of them for embracing what the grandparents and great grandparents were smart enough to improve upon. The dude over there in his homespun going on about the superior sound quality of Edison cylinders is ridiculous.
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You should have picked your parents better.
Like Trump did.
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Not acceptable to snowflake, he wants to live in the same sort of house his parents have, in the same suburb as his parents.
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Pensions were immoral - be glad they are gone. Once people realized what was going on and made companies actually pay for the benefits they were promising, they went away... shocking! Now accounting standards are changing for the government and you'll see the same thing happen in the public domain.
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No, you just never thought very hard about it.
As they were popularly implemented, they were simply not morally defensible. It is a promise made by someone who will be in no position to make good on the promise. The only winners in the pension system were the companies who got away with "I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" and the union reps who brought home big "wins" for their membership that would not be around to see through.
If you want to make them morally defensible, you need to basica
Re: Cue idiotic millenial jokes in 3,2,1... (Score:4, Informative)
a new fangled 401ks that I realize I need a financial professional to help manage to get ROI
As an FYI, just pick the lowest fee S&P tracking fund you can find. All paid advice just costs you money in fees and doesn't help. It is arguably a little better if you spread it among low fee high cap, mid cap, small cap, and international index funds (I currently have a 50%, 25%, 15%, 10% in one fund from each category).
Also ignore the advice that you should have 100 minus age percent of your 401k in stocks (and the rest in bonds). That rule is becoming closer to 125 minus age today. For example the three largest target date funds (Fidelity, Vanguard, T Row Price) range between 75%-85% in stocks for 50 year old investors. I personally advocate 100% stock until at least 45 (I don't plan on going below 100% until age 50, unless we happen to be in a downturn then).
You don't really need much more advice than this to do well with your 401k. Barring a major societal collapse that makes the Great Depression look like a bull market, you will make a great ROI just following index funds.
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VTI has lower fees and diversifies better than the S&P.
That kind of detail depends on the funds available in your 401k plan. I would put all of my money into VTI and VTIAX (the international version), but I've never had VTI available in any of my 401k plans. That is why I spread my money between Vanguard's high cap (S&P500), mid cap, and small cap, which becomes very close to simply investing in VTI.
The current split of VTI is about 75% high cap, 20% mid cap, 5% small cap. Actually after researching it I am going to go down a bit in mid/small cap to match t
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You do not need a financial professional to manage your retirement savings. That is a lie spread by "financial professionals" a.k.a. salespeople. They want it to seem complicated so the rubes will give up and seek help from them for a low-low price of 1% assets under management (which likely works out to 25% of your income in retirement).
All you need is a low-fee broad-based stock index fund and a low-fee broad-based bond fund. If you are conservative, keep your age in bonds. If you want to get more aggress
You hate me for being different. (Score:1)
Spoken like a true millenial.
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Amazing how each generation thinks the one that follows it are a bunch of losers for wanting something different than what their parents want.
Nobody likes being forced to work long hours. China's economy is getting to the point where a lot of Chinese finally have a choice in the matter. That's a good thing.
Next, with more free time and more self-worth, they'll want democracy, and the right to speak uncensored.
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To be fair, asian trans-gender people usually look better than not-asian trans-gender people.
Look at that Kardashian abomination. Face like a bricklayer's elbow.
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Momma always said: millennial is as millennial does.
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They do have a choice, go and buy property in New Zealand, Australia or Vancouver and utterly destroy the housing market for the locals.
Would you say I'm bitter about this?
Fuck yes I am, extremely, the governments of those 3 places should be fucking executed for treason for what has gone on to the 50 and under people who aren't in the housing market, we've been robbed due to their greed (allowing it to happen)
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They do have a choice, go and buy property in New Zealand, Australia or Vancouver and utterly destroy the housing market for the locals.
Would you say I'm bitter about this?
Fuck yes I am, extremely, the governments of those 3 places should be fucking executed for treason for what has gone on to the 50 and under people who aren't in the housing market, we've been robbed due to their greed (allowing it to happen)
Wow... so the property market problems in Australia are solely as a result of Chinese investors? Not generous negative gearing concessions that see a flood of money put in as a tax shelter? Not due to artificial restrictions on supply by policy makers scared of upsetting the large baby boomers voting block that don't want development in their inner city neighbourhoods? Not due to inadequate infrastructure spend on connections and development of regional suburbs and smaller cities that has lead to almost hal
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> Wow... so the property market problems in Australia are solely as a result of Chinese investors?
No, not entirely actually, but very much exacerbated by them. When they shouldn't be allowed to buy at all.
> Not generous negative gearing concessions that see a flood of money put in as a tax shelter? Not due to artificial restrictions on supply by policy makers scared of upsetting the large baby boomers voting block that don't want development in their inner city neighbourhoods? Not due to inadequate in
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They don't need maximum output. Standing around waiting for customers, performing simple tasks on an assembly line... They just need a warm body.
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You depend on others to produce the electricity you use, grow the food you eat, make the clothes you wear, and on and on.
Poe's law not withstanding, we now have enough agricultural and manufacturing technology to work comfortable hours and produce enough basic necessities for everyone on the planet. The problem is that a huge fraction of the world's economic output is frivolous luxury goods for rich people.
Yes, we need an economic system that provides most people with strong incentives to work an honest 9-5 to produce things like food and shelter. But we need to avoid economic systems that force people to work ridiculous over
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Or a brothel review writer or a quality inspector in a brewery.
Protip: if you split them part-time it's important to get the sequencing right.
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Actually, your father worked a lot harder for more then you (most likely). When you take into account actual inflation versus pay increase, working people today are able to do significantly less with the money they earn then people 40 year ago.
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Oh, it's *always* true. Just because the next generation is a bunch of losers, doesn't mean that your generation was any better...
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I'd like to point out that many people in their 50s can write coherently and judge things on the basis of facts. The generation isn't a total loss.
They need an union! (Score:4, Funny)
They need an union!
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There was a time when even if everyone worked flat out 24/7 there still wouldn't be enough food and other basic necessities: lots of people were going to have to go hungry and many people were even going have to starve.
But now we have enough farming and manufacturing technology that we can produce enough for everyone in the world to have enough basic necessities to live simply but comfortably. And that's just if the working age population is willing to do an honest 40 hour week - no need for overtime.
So the
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GP said "But most of the distribution problem is between the ordinary people and the rulers.", which looks reasonably accurate to me. Quite a few governments in crappy countries really don't care if their citizens starve.
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Deng was probably referring to Emperor Moa's Great Leap Forward, during which 30,000,000 starved to death and billions went hungry. Let us hope Emperor Xi is wiser, for he is now just as powerful.
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I hope so. However, there have been plenty of other despotisms that would not pass food to the intended recipients.
No need for a union (Score:2)
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In China's case there are more employers desperately needing workers than there are workers. Workers communicate rapidly using mobile phones about the best and workplace environments. This had led to rising salaries and companies being forced to relocate factories inland to find workers.
In the West, salaries are high in those areas where there are more employers than workers. The places to avoid are one company towns or those university cities where there are more graduates than jobs.
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Yeah, Adam Smith talked about that. The problem is that the boost in pay is temporary. If the economy settles down and doesn't grow, worker pay goes down. (Smith's example was China, a wealthy country with really poor people, ironically.)
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Wasn't the "communist party" supposed to be the ultimate union for workers?
Oh wait, China is walking away from communism as part of it's economic modernization...
Whoops, I forgot that "communist" actually means "dictatorship" and "communist party" means "ruling-class" in modern usage... Maybe the workers should unite in solidarity [wikipedia.org]...
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Not sure why this is a joke.
Union participation has a strong correlation with a more equitable distribution between workers and investors [telltalechart.org] (as measured by the Gini coefficient).
The real irony is that China was founded on a worker's revolt and broad support of the ruling coalition among the lower classes and that over the years -- through corruption and graft -- it's lost any pretense of standing for worker's rights or indeed any rights other than for those in power and with wealth.
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They should be (Score:2)
happy to just have a job.
That's what the last place I worked told me when I had 14 weeks of unpaid 24/7 on-call.
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14 weeks. Must be a slow job market.
At least when they said 'happy to have a job', I assume the GP told them, 'Yep, I do have a job. I start tomorrow.'
way to go. (Score:2)
Join the fucking club (Score:2)
"I'm only working here because I need more fucking money"
China has to change (Score:2)
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As mentioned above by some users already, Asian culture in part does emphasize this kind of behavior quite a bit. I remember reading something about workers in Japan going to work in spite of adverse symptoms in the aftermath of that terrible subway sarin incident.
In addition, the Chinese have a fairly strong tolerance for suffering calamities, as their history would seem
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So was Saddam. And Gadaffi. Little good it did their subjects.
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Under Gaddafi Libya had higher Education and Medical scores than most countries in Europe.
Gaddafi was overthrown because he wanted to create a Gold Dinar as the African common currency and take oil trading off the dollar. Everything else was a smokescreen. The reason Clinton had to hide her emails was she was supporting Al Qaeda in Libya to overthrow Gaddafi.
If there is justice in the world someday Obama and Hillary will have a Nuremberg of their own.
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An expert on countries he couldn't even point to on a map wrote:
There's more than one rebel group, and they aren't all Islamists. Not even close.
Also, why do you assume that the opponent of someone secular automatically religious?
The same thing happened in Japan (Score:1)
Once you reach a certain income, you ask "why am I trading my life away for this?"
It's a good sign that the chinese economy is maturing. They still won't achieve wage parity for another 20 years at current rates and that will give them a competitive advantage until then.
Self-centered? (Score:3)
"...young people, especially the post-90s generation, are reluctant to work overtime -- they are more self-centered," says labour rights expert Li Jupeng
Not wanting to work overtime is considered self centered? China will thrive even more with young people that finally understand that life is much more than your job.
Re: Self-centered? (Score:1)
And now you understand the joke that is communism. It is amusing that communists and marxists in the west forget about the "expected to work themselves to death for he glorious party" bit of communism.
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For starters, China isn't really communist. They call themselves as such but more of their economy is privately controlled than not. That's not very communist.
Also, I seem to be a little fuzzy on my Marx here. Which writings of his are you referring to with "expected to work themselves to death for he glorious party"?
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I'll bite. Marx's plan was that humans can cooperate for the benefit of everyone. A very game theory idea, and on the surface it seems great as long as assholes don't mess it up. Golden rule is the best rule. And, hey, capitalism is kind of crap when you look at it, lots of wealth imbalance.
However, "benefit of everyone" is somewhat subjective when it comes down to the details. The only way to get everyone on board is to have a totalitarian state forcing everyone to do exactly what they say. The people in
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See, you did exactly what the other poster did, you took Marx and then put your own spin on it.
What Marx actually says on this subject is that there will be a mass mind set change as part of the revolution and that what you describe won't be a problem
Don't get me wrong, I don't think this will ever happen but that is what Marx actually laid out.
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It's Vulcan.
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Might have lost something in translation.
Chinese people often put family first. Younger people are becoming more independent, thinking more about their own needs and wants.
Or maybe he is just a capitalist pig-dog who expects people to kill themselves for his bonus. Hard to say...
Wrong? (Score:1)
Entitled (Score:1)
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The parents of "typical millennials" worked 40 hours a week.
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Do you have a source on this? It's plausible, sure. But I do like having sources.
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You should know better than that. Implied sarcasm will ALWAYS be misinterpreted online.
And these days, with wingnuts from all extremes climbing out of the woodwork and expecting to be taken seriously, that's more true than ever.
Doing what? (Score:3)
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Seriously - wtf is there to do for 12 hours per day 6 days a week?
Solitaire.
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Why have 2 shifts of widget makers if you can just make the first work longer etc. (of course the reason is productivity, but don't tell them that, they are already stealing all our jobs)
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Manufacturing: box packing, component assembly, soldering, inspection, electronics repair. Look at some of the videos of people walking around Shenhzen. You can build your own smartphone simply by walking around shops, collecting the components, then buying a case and getting the touchscreen glued in place.
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You have a link to such a video? Would love to see it.
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For example, in the US if you had to go a teller to get money at the bank, it is a quick transaction, usually not requiring any paper. However, many other countries still require not only paper, but a complicated ritual that can easily require 10
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That don't need a robot to be set up.
Products and services that change every few months so a new complex robot is still just too expensive.
The option to move to an Indonesia, Laos and set up a new factory and get lower costs than in China.
Buy more new robots and attract more special production lines that pay more per product.
Just keep on using humans and keep the new parts size human worker ready.
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Seriously - wtf is there to do for 12 hours per day 6 days a week?
QA / QA on Microsoft products.
Globally good news! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Globally good news! (Score:4, Insightful)
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You can't get to 99% if you ditch that stuff, though. And really, people not wanting to be subject to harsher treatment by the police due to the color of their skin doesn't seem terribly unreasonable to me.
People have limited bandwidth and all problems cannot be tackled simultaneously. Fixing the problem of the 1% taking all economic gains helps 99% of the people. Fixing any other social issue will help less than 99% of the people. To do the most good start with what benefits the most people.
Good luck to them (Score:5, Interesting)
8 hours work, 8 hours recreation, 8 hours rest. My grandfather bled for this so Mr. Project Manager can go fuck himself for his overtime. May they have a better time than we did with our labor-owner relations. The pinkertons, the homestead strike, the Colorado Labor Wars, company script, blacklists, strikebreakers, infiltrators, massacre. Least we forget [wikipedia.org].
Who does Mr. Spacely think he is? (Score:2)
These three hour workdays are killing me!
(Pedantic note: The Jetson's have represented George's work hours randomly, from 3 hours above (assumed this is 'overtime'), to 2 hours, 3x a week, to 1 hour, 2x a week)
Wait ... (Score:1)
996 (Score:2)
If it wasnt for 996 the luxury of pushing back against in now wont exist. The Chinese are not starving and the global economy better today and we have nice toys thanks to the fact that they were cheaper than western manufacturing.
I am not saying they need 996 at the same time they have to respect that it was needed.
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If there is nothing to buy whats the point of the public even having money, and how does the public get money without business/commerce?
better educated, more aware of their rights (Score:5, Interesting)
You know, the "40 hour" week was formalized in the US by uneducated line workers many of whom could barely read. It doesn't take a half a life time of education debt to grasp the concept. These attitudes are emerging in China because the demand for workers is high enough that workers have leverage, not because they have degrees.
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These attitudes are emerging in China because the demand for workers is high enough that workers have leverage, not because they have degrees.
Not quite. The thing is you can't compare all countries directly, especially due to the incredible cultural differences between them. Making demands of your employers just because you have buying power? Not in your parents China! That would be considered disrespectful. It would be frowned upon. What kind of a man would not actually *want* to work 12h/6d to provide for their family. Are you not a good family man? Shame on you.
Education is required to get over that mindset, and not just personal education. Yo
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That would be considered disrespectful. It would be frowned upon.
Workers in the West were subjected to all manner of cultural shaming by the ruling class, the clergy, their elders, law enforcement, effectively everyone. Your ignorance of this history is painfully obvious.
Education is required to get over that mindset
So says you. History supports my view. You have educrat talking points.
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Your ignorance of this history is painfully obvious.
I'm not ignorant of this. By comparing the USA at the dawn of the industrial age to China *you* are. Being disrespectful in the east and in the west has two very different connotations.
Did any of your elders fall on their own swords in shame? Thought so.
So says you. History supports my view.
History supports both our views as we are talking about two different cultures. Your ignorance of this Chinese history is painfully obvious.
Asses in seats doesn't equal work anyhow. (Score:5, Insightful)
When I ran a development team, I soon learned you have to police people who develop the habit of spending long, non-productive hours at work. These people are not the high performers.
I'm not talking about flow sessions where someone spends twelve or even eighteen hours without realizing the time is passing -- that exploits a natural behavior of brains when they're fully engaged. I'm talking about people frittering away hours dancing around work without doing it. Keeping your ass in the chair longer is a way for a lazy person to convince himself he's a hard worker.
Nobody can give their best for seventy hours a week, week in and week out. It's a challenge getting peak effort out of people working forty hours a week. Routine long hours are often a sign of lack of management planning and vigilance.
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Agreed. Long hours generally tend to work well for light/moderate physical labour or repetitive tasks. Essentially these are jobs where you can turn off your brain and let muscle memory take care of things. Time flies when you are not even there. When performing more cognitive tasks the number of hours you can work continuously goes down drastically with complexity. At the end of the day mental exhaustion sets in, you lose focus and make mistake after mistake.
Based on hours worked you appear productive but
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You are absolutely right; it's my job to make you efficient. That's why you'd never, ever have a 40 hour work week with only 20 hours of work if you were my employee. I'd give you at least 10 hours of ax-sharpening assignments. Evaluate this product; figure whether X cold be done or how to do Y better. This kind of assignment not only makes the group more competitive, it's interesting for you.
I'll tolerate up to maybe 20% of your time frittered away, but there's no way you'd get a positive review from m
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If that's the only alternative you can see to allowing them to spend fully half their time on non-productive tasks, I'd say you've never seen a competent manager.
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Wrong reply, ivanbot. Toggle and try again.
LOL (Score:2)
Welcome to life. Itâ(TM)s a tad more difficult than you may have been led to believe.
As long as theyâ(TM)re ok with diminished buying power due to working less hours, there wonâ(TM)t be any issues.
But we all know this likely wonâ(TM)t be the case. Thatâ(TM)s where the problems will start.
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Wait until your boss makes you "dial it up to 11" and work 184.8 hours in a week before you complain about working too hard.
You know, there is no I in TEAM. There is also no $...
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The rich don't risk starvation if a risk fails. In fact they can generally suffer several back-to-back failures and still afford that globe-trotting vacation they had been eyeing.
Risk diversification is risk reduction - and only the rich can afford it.
Re: Definition of capitalism (Score:5, Insightful)
The rich can *literally afford* to take risks because they're entirely *financial risks*, not risks that affect necessities like food, housing, medical care, etc. That argument is and always has been garbage. A certain portion of finances directly translate to necessities. Everything over that give you more advantage to take risks because you have more opportunities to fail and inevitably more opportunities to succeed.
Once you have a certain amount of wealth tucked away to assure you'll eat and won't be miserable your entire life, the rest of your assets can become, essentially, monopoly money. You may win or may lose but you'll still have an enjoyable life. It could be a lot more enjoyable (yachts, supercars, etc.) or medicore (average luxury car, small boat, etc.).
Your average person can't do that or they may not have a home, they or their kids may go hungry, they may forgo necessary medical care, etc. Risk aversion is not a valid argument unless the playing field starts the same way.
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