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The Almighty Buck Australia

Australian Bank's System Outage Leaves 9 Million Customers Without Cash (reuters.com) 132

An anonymous reader quotes Reuters: National Australia Bank on Saturday suffered what it described as a "nationwide outage" to some of its technology systems, leaving customers unable to access banking services or withdraw money. Customers took to social media to vent their frustrations, with some saying they were left unable to pay for groceries or refuel their cars...

National Australia Bank is one of Australia's four largest retail banks with a customer base of 9 million, according to its website... The Bank of New Zealand, a NAB subsidiary, also experienced outages on Saturday across New Zealand, but the spokesman was unable to confirm a connection between the two incidents.

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Australian Bank's System Outage Leaves 9 Million Customers Without Cash

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  • Always carry cash (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 26, 2018 @08:39PM (#56680768)

    Always carry cash, and two different types of credit cards. I have a visa, mastercard and $200 cash on me, plus bank cards. Enough for some gas, food or a cheap hotel if needed.

    • by arglebargle_xiv ( 2212710 ) on Sunday May 27, 2018 @12:17AM (#56681454)

      Always carry cash, and two different types of credit cards. I have a visa, mastercard and $200 cash on me, plus bank cards

      I always carry a Smith and Wesson. With one of those, I find I can get as much cash, credit cards, and jewellery and watches as I want.

      • by bn-7bc ( 909819 )

        Well unless you are in the us it willallso get you asrayn the local jail, and a criminal record, tho your milage may wary

      • That's why I drive a tank. Now my cards and $200 cash are safe even from the likes of you. Ha, take that!

    • I generally carry more, in both dollar terms and number of credit cards. However, this is of limited utility when a merchant’s payment processor goes down— you might be ok for now, but how long can you last? In an emergency, even a liberal amount of cash can go quickly. The systems today really aren’t sufficiently robust to handle the contingencies.

      • The systems today really aren’t sufficiently robust to handle the contingencies.

        Sad but true. This is a story about a one day outage. In the UK, the bank TSB has been having similar problems for over one month, due to what appears to have been a spectacular failure while trying to migrate to a new IT system.

        I'm also in the camp that keeps a significant amount of cash in safe, always-accessible places these days, after seeing a few too many incidents where people were literally unable to get money out of bank accounts and the like in recent years. But even I would have run out of saving

        • Guess I am paranoid... always two different banks. (If you use a credit union, two different credit unions might not offer incremental improvements, since many are serviced by the same network.)

          When I lived on a tiny island without reliable communications, the owner of a shop I worked at always had two (or three) different merchant accounts and terminals to address the issue. Harder to do with modern POS systems though.

          • It's not paranoia if they really are all out to get you. :-) I too use different banks and other financial services for just about everything, due in part to past experiences with too many eggs in one basket when something stopped working.

            Bank != credit card != mortgage lender != any service for business != any other service for business.

    • I am in New Zealand and was affected because one of my 2 banks is BNZ.

      I only found out I was affected because I tried to buy something on steam, and my debit card was declined (weird because I knew I had funds in it).
      I checked my banking app and it wouldnt show the live balance, and came up with a weird error when I tried to login... Couple of hours later it was back to normal, just was glad I out wasnt buying petrol or groceries
  • by El Cubano ( 631386 ) on Saturday May 26, 2018 @08:43PM (#56680792)

    The Reuters article is lacking details. news.com.au has a story with more details [news.com.au].

    It appears that their payment processing was down too. So, not just retail customers with accounts at NAB, but also merchants who use them for payment processing were not able to accept payments. The article I read does not state that clearly, but the taxi patron seemed to complain that it was the inability of the cabbie to accept a card payment that was the problem, rather than that his own individual card did not work.

    It sucks when you are the customer and the service fails, but moreso when you are the collateral damage.

    • by dwywit ( 1109409 )

      It seems that the backup voucher system was forgotten.

      Unless the banks have withdrawn that - you used to be able to fill out a paper voucher for later processing when the EFTPOS was down.

      • by Anonymous Coward

        It seems that the backup voucher system was forgotten.

        Unless the banks have withdrawn that - you used to be able to fill out a paper voucher for later processing when the EFTPOS was down.

        No, there was never a paper voucher system for EFTPOS. It relies totally on electronic authorization that funds exist and got transferred.

        Perhaps you're thinking of the credit card backup vouchers? That relies on the trust inherent in credit (and not debit) cards.

        • by dwywit ( 1109409 )

          Ah, yes - that's what I was thinking of.

          But IIRC EFT terminals have the ability to store transactions and send later. I've seen that very statement on EFT displays: "Sending stored transactions" although that would tend to revert to a "trust" system, but there's nothing to stop the bank reversing the transaction later, or just putting the account holder's balance into the red if there's insufficient funds.

          • Pretty much exactly no sorry, the whole basis of EFTPOS is online verification.
            they could do that for (older) credit card transactions, but certainly not for EFTPOS, with which online verification is a designed in requirement.

          • You mean those things with the carbon paper and the slider that disappeared after WW1?

        • EFTPOS install kits, up until a few years ago, included vouchers for EFTPOS. These could be run through the imprinter machine, and then banked manually. Each merchant would have a floor limit for these transactions - which could be zero for debit cards - and if a transaction is more than that, they have to call a phone number where a computer would authorize the transaction. This computer system was probably down with the rest of the system...
        • I had my BNZ credit card declined when I was trying to order online. That was a real scare. Managed to complete the transaction by doing direct transfer of funds from another bank. Online purchases are really the only time I use a credit card. Not many people use credit cards for purchases in NZ shops, and if you do you're likely to be hit with a surcharge. That's because of the high per-transaction cost to the retailer, compared with EFTPOS which is a fixed per-month cost.
  • by Anonymous Coward

    Because progress!

    Me, I tend to keep a bit of a cash reserve. But then I'm backward and old-fashioned like that.

    • Re: (Score:2, Troll)

      by thesupraman ( 179040 )

      But your life becomes SO much BETTER when the corporations and government can track every single transaction you make, where and when it was, for how much, and to whom, and it is only able to be completed if they allow it.

      Think of the children!

      • Well personaly my life is better wit cards only (98%of the time) I disslke hadeling cash because of sub par eyesight so checking chang takes me forever, a chi an pin transaction on the other hands takes less than 30 secondsfrom the time the pos has the total till Ikm done and no damed change. Ofc if the suystem either at mybank or at the posis down it rakes longer but well I’s so infreqent that it is akllmost a nn issue

    • Any outage that can affect ATMs could also mess with credit card verification. At least if people hold cash, those that have cash can still transact.
  • by JaredOfEuropa ( 526365 ) on Saturday May 26, 2018 @09:04PM (#56680904) Journal
    Your emergency supplies - which you surely have - should include some cash.
    • by Joe_Dragon ( 2206452 ) on Saturday May 26, 2018 @09:11PM (#56680928)

      and when you go to an store that does not take cash>

      • by dwywit ( 1109409 )

        Yep - all those hipster cafes that have signs up saying "EFTPOS only - no cash".

        I wonder if they suddenly decided cash was OK after all?

      • One does NOT go to a store that does not take cash.
      • by mjwx ( 966435 )

        and when you go to an store that does not take cash>

        Modded funny and rightfully so.

        A store you walk into and does not take cash has to be very specialised indeed. Pretty much the kind of business that doesn't really have stock on hand. In Australia, certain types of stores (supermarkets in particular) are obliged to accept cash, otherwise it's optional but you're going to find more cardless stores than cashless ones.

        The last place I shopped at that was cashless preferred payment by bank transfer (faster payments here in the UK) and gave you a 5% discou

    • In case I lose my wallet or there is a problem with the bank or whatever, I keep $10-$20 cash in car. That'll get gas to get me home or whatever.

      At home, in the safe, I have enough cash to at least make it to the next pay day.

      • Yep I usually keep a hundred in my wallet and another 50 or so in the car somewhere for when I forget my wallet. I also ALWAYS have cards from 2 separate banks, especially when on holidays to avoid the sort of problem the NAB had, I have NAB cards, but also CBA and WESTPAC in australia so was unaffected (except the checkout at the supermarket took me 30 seconds longer as I had to hunt in my wallet for a second card after the NAB one was declined).
        • Yep I usually keep a hundred in my wallet and another 50 or so in the car somewhere for when I forget my wallet. I also ALWAYS have cards from 2 separate banks, especially when on holidays to avoid the sort of problem the NAB had, I have NAB cards, but also CBA and WESTPAC in australia so was unaffected (except the checkout at the supermarket took me 30 seconds longer as I had to hunt in my wallet for a second card after the NAB one was declined).

          Yeah it's a bit if a no-brainer for those of us that are used to dealing with HA/DR type scenarios. Multiple card from multiple banks, plus cash, plus more cash elsewhere just in case.
          While the bank can take the lion's share of blame for having flaky systems, the retailers and customers have to take some responsibility for not being prepared for such events.

          • by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

            While the bank can take the lion's share of blame for having flaky systems, the retailers and customers have to take some responsibility for not being prepared for such events.

            And how often does it happen?

            What backup systems would there be, other than cash? Payment systems meltdown very rarely - maybe once a year at the high end of the range, and usually only for a day tops.

            Having manual cashless methods is not viable for something that infrequent - first off, retail turnover is high, while I know a retail

            • The issue isn't whether or not you can wait, it is the pure inconvenience. For example at the checkout with a cart full of groceries only to find your bank is currently offline (as happens to 10's of thousands of people for this incident, and also for the CBA incident not that long ago and then again for the ANZ incident). What do you do when you pump the gas only to then find your card is declined? you will be forced to leave a guarantee of some sort as well as the hugely inconvenient process of filling ou
            • While the bank can take the lion's share of blame for having flaky systems, the retailers and customers have to take some responsibility for not being prepared for such events.

              And how often does it happen?

              What backup systems would there be, other than cash?

              Cash was the backup system I was referring to. The people complaining didn't have any, and they're putting all the blame on other people.

    • Your emergency supplies - which you surely have - should include some cash.

      No. The lesson here is your business should have a business continuity plan. That may involve cash, it may not.

      I remember a few years ago when Commbank's payment system went down. I found out about it after I had filled my car and went to pay. I didn't have cash. What I did do was hand over my drivers license, the store clerk took down my details as well as a receipt and basically said if I don't settle the debt in 48 hours he'll forward my details to the police.

      Done. Simple. No cash required.

      Why is this ev

  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 26, 2018 @09:40PM (#56681018)

    This is one the reasons why a cashless society is a bad idea. Suppose the electronic systems were down for a couple of weeks. How is one without cash going to buy food, fuel, essential medicine, and pay for the rent/mortgage? In fact this is one of the less important reasons why its a bad idea. A quick summary of the other reasons why a cashless society is bad:
              - Government and the Corporations get to monitor EVERY transaction made. No privacy. Anything and everything may be used against you now or in the future.
              - WIth the push of a button the Government (and perhaps the Banks too) can turn off your money.
                        - No money for rent/mortgage, food, essential medicine, or fuel.
                        - No money to pay the lawyer to fight it.
              - Bank have absolute control of your money. You don't.
                        - Fees for every kind of transfer, even small ones. No other option. Its not like you can just pull your money out in cash.
                        - Fees for the storage of your money. Your money dwindles away if you don't spend it. They can motivate you to spend more by increasing fees, and/or charing negative interest.
                        - No way to opt out of dealing with the banks. Best option is maybe getting to switch banks.
                        - Banks can dictate how your spend your money -- increasing fees for payments to parties they don't like, or denying them altogether.

    • This is one the reasons why a cashless society is a bad idea. Suppose the electronic systems were down for a couple of weeks.

      What if water or electricity went down for weeks? The simple fact is that as these services become more important, they also become more resilient to failure. These days, outages are generally contained to hours rather than days, and that is an acceptable loss for the benefit they give (ie much greater accountability of transactions).

      • Accountability is not a positive -- it's a negative. Why should we have to account for everything we buy and sell to a corporation or government? Anonymity and privacy == freedom.
        • Accountability is not a positive -- it's a negative. Why should we have to account for everything we buy and sell to a corporation or government? Anonymity and privacy == freedom.

          Total Freedom = Jungle. And most of us don't want that. The difference between jungle and non-jungle is accountability.

          • I'd take a jungle over a prison any day of the week. You seem to want a prison, because you're too cowardly to appreciate freedom.
            • I'd take a jungle over a prison any day of the week. You seem to want a prison, because you're too cowardly to appreciate freedom.

              Of course, because there's only two possible options...

              • I'll stay on the side of freedom, so long as the US has cop trash and lawmaker trash seeking to put people in a cage for victimless crimes.
                • I'll stay on the side of freedom, so long as the US has cop trash and lawmaker trash seeking to put people in a cage for victimless crimes.

                  It never occurred to you that those cops and lawmakers are just exercising their own freedom? Or do you think they shouldn't be free to continue and be held accountable for their actions?

      • After Sandy, access to cash was a significant problem here. No power, floods. A lot of people with no cars, or unreachable cars, transit down. Stores were open quick, without power and if not flooded. It was days before there were ATMs in town, and those were driven in on special trucks with satellite coms, and I guarantee these trucks werent available to less wealthy areas. IIRC, $200 limit. National outages might be confined to days, but regional issues exist too.
      • These days, outages are generally contained to hours rather than days, and that is an acceptable loss for the benefit they give (ie much greater accountability of transactions).

        When you have a hostile government that's a bug, not a feature. Except, of course, to those who would control you.

        When the last victimless crime is removed from the books, and the last corrupt cop is put in the ground, I'll support a cashless society.

        • And, compared to Australia, the US government is much more hostile. Which is why the US doesn't deserve a cashless society.

          The US imprisons 1% of its population; it's a worldwide disgrace among free countries.

      • by Agripa ( 139780 )

        This is one the reasons why a cashless society is a bad idea. Suppose the electronic systems were down for a couple of weeks.

        What if water or electricity went down for weeks?

        I have a water heater and stored bottled water. I have fuel and emergency generator. If the systems my cashless society relies on fail, then I have a couple weeks worth of cash on hand ... err ... wait, I think I see a problem.

        The simple fact is that as these services become more important, they also become more resilient to failure. These days, outages are generally contained to hours rather than days, and that is an acceptable loss for the benefit they give (ie much greater accountability of transactions).

        Utilities have gotten more reliable? That sure has not happened anywhere I have lived over the past decades. That is why I had to get the backup generator mentioned above.

        • Utilities have gotten more reliable? That sure has not happened anywhere I have lived over the past decades. That is why I had to get the backup generator mentioned above.

          Not sure how old you are or maybe it's where you live, but my parents both didn't have toilets in their houses when they were kids, and their grandparents didn't have electricity. So yeah, utilities are much better than they used to be.
          The graph of progress is not a straight line. Don't confuse the dips with a change of direction.

          I have a water heater and stored bottled water. I have fuel and emergency generator. If the systems my cashless society relies on fail, then I have a couple weeks worth of cash on hand

          Right so you have a primary solution and a backup for emergencies, which is much better than just one system. I don't think that 'the cashless society' means 100% cash-free, like

    • And this is why cryptocoins are good. Banks would love nothing more than for all y'all go cashless, even if they know something like this may happen.
      They want more for themselves, and more control they have the more they going to exploit you.

      Slashdot folk hate cryptocurrencies. Eg. I'm a freelancer. I regularly get my employers from across the world to buy Ethereum, and then send it to me... and I cash out 15 minutes later when I get it on my side, fees are about 5 dollars. Banks ? Takes 5 days for money
    • Suppose the electronic systems were down for a couple of weeks. How is one without cash going to buy food

      If electronic systems are down for a couple of weeks then you're not getting food even if you have cash. The back side of a businesses haven't worked with cash for a long time.

      Speaking of, they also don't work on a payment on transfer of goods basis either. There are plenty of alternatives if your payment processor goes down that doesn't involve having to deal with cash.

  • I use this bank. The first I knew of this, I was in the supermarket buying groceries. When I went to pay, the machine said it needed a signature too. This is weird, I've never seen it before. So, I just did it and I got to walk out with my groceries.

    Earlier I had bought a few more expensive things in a department store. It's entirely possible I wouldn't have been able to buy them then.

    Apparently it was caused by a power outage to the mainframe. Maybe they should move this stuff off mainframes like everyone

  • by Harlequin80 ( 1671040 ) on Sunday May 27, 2018 @01:30AM (#56681590)

    And these issues happen very very rarely and, even when they do the impact in minimal.

    9 million people without cash? Bullshit. Technically I am a NAB customer as I have a NAB cc and a NAB savings account. They are literally never used and exist purely as a backup. I cannot remember the last time I used them. We have a population of ~25 million people, and while NAB is a major bank there is no way in hell they are the primary bank for 9 million.

    I also use android pay for 99% of my store transactions and only ever use my card when I exceed the phone pay limit, which seems to be somewhere around $450. I would be lucky to use cash for 1 transaction a fortnight.

    Finally while you may have been unable to do EFTPOS transactions out of your savings accounts credit cards still have offline capabilities. So if you were one of the really really rare people, who only has a savings account and only banks with NAB then maybe you would have had an issue if you tried to do something during the brief outage. Everyone else would have just used the office CC transaction model.

    • by DogDude ( 805747 )
      I also use android pay for 99% of my store transactions

      So, not only do you give 3% of your money to Visa/MC, but you ALSO give Google all of your purchase information? You're a good little drone, aren't you? VISA/MC/Google love people like you!
      • Given i dont get a discount for cash why should i care about 3% (your merchant pays way too much if they are paying 3%) going to the processing company.

        And re data, what is the nefarious outcome i need to be concerned by? So google knows i go to my local coffee shop and spends $9? Or i have a spend of x per week at the supermarket. Im really not sure why i should care.

        What are they going to do? Advertise to me? I am tax compliant, i dont have a random drug problem im trying to hide, political donations have

    • by Agripa ( 139780 )

      And these issues happen very very rarely and, even when they do the impact in minimal.

      Didn't Nedry or Arnold say that in Jurassic Park?

  • Let me guess... someone let a cert expire?
  • But hooray for a cashless society!
  • In India, this was done on purpose in 2016.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

    It took more than 3 months before ATMs started working like normal. Lots of people died in lines outside banks.

  • This is what 40+ years of technical debt looks like.

    Another symptom of this underlying issue at NAB: My NAB debit card simply doesn't work in London, in any ATM. It works everywhere else I've travelled in Europe and Asia. (Oh, except for 1 trip to Helsinki)

    NAB has no idea why, and can't offer a solution (no, its not flagged/blocked, yes, its compatible with the ATM, yes, the network seems OK). But then, they have bigger fish to fry...

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