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Businesses Education The Almighty Buck Science

Amazon To NYC After Reconsidering HQ2 Plans: It'd Be a Shame If Something Happened To Your Kids' CS Education 201

theodp writes: Commenting on reports that Amazon is reconsidering its plan to bring 25,000 jobs to a new campus in New York City following a wave of political and community opposition, Amazon issued the following statement: "We're focused on engaging with our new neighbors -- small business owners, educators, and community leaders. Whether it's building a pipeline of local jobs through workforce training or funding computer science classes for thousands of New York City students, we are working hard to demonstrate what kind of neighbor we will be." Yep, it'd be a shame if something happened. The Washington Post earlier reported that New York State Sen. Michael Gianaris, a strong opponent of the Amazon HQ2 deal, described the possibility that Amazon would pull out of the deal -- which totals up to $3 billion in state and city incentives -- as akin to blackmail. "Amazon has extorted New York from the start, and this seems to be their next effort to do just that," he said. "If their view is, 'We won't come unless we get three billion of your dollars,' then they shouldn't come." Over at Vice, Ankita Rao examines what Amazon infiltrating America's school system might look like.
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Amazon To NYC After Reconsidering HQ2 Plans: It'd Be a Shame If Something Happened To Your Kids' CS Education

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  • by mlyle ( 148697 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @01:22PM (#58099584)

    I'm not exactly a fan of Amazon, but it's rational for them to dedicate resources to the communities where they will have a significant presence. If they don't go to New York, and go somewhere else instead, then resources they were going to spend on the community in New York will instead go somewhere else.

    • by fluffernutter ( 1411889 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @01:34PM (#58099654)
      Kids don't need Amazon to learn computer science. Just like my dad got a Timex Sinclair to teach me, if a parent these days want their kids to learn then they can get a raspberry pi.
      • if a parent these days want their kids to learn then they can get a raspberry pi.

        I suppose buying them a hammer will teach them architecture.

        • Well I would say something to draw with, not a hammer. But if they truly want to learn it than yes.
        • I don't think a hammer will teach them about architecture. Wrong tool. But it will teach you about construction. Possibly woodworking. And when you reach the limitations of hammer-and-nail joinery, you can then progress to screws, pocket-hole joinery, dovetail. Maybe even timber framing. Possibly starting a business and hire employees, contributing to multiple families. Go get that hammer--Harbor Freight has some for under $5.
          • Besides, architecture tends to be like Pro Basketball. If you're good & lucky, you make good money. Otherwise, most of the ones I've known are barely getting by.
        • if a parent these days want their kids to learn then they can get a raspberry pi.

          I suppose buying them a hammer will teach them architecture.

          You are operating on the education ideal, which shows that gender studies programs make for better relationships between men and women?

      • Hang on--I need to get some popcorn and watch the Rasp Pi flaming begin. (BTW, I agree with you; raspberry pi is plenty to start learning on. When you get to the limitations, you learn from them, and if necessary you can then get something "better". )
        • Well like I said, I learned fundamentals of basic on a timex sinclair. There wasn't even a shell back then.
        • Hang on--I need to get some popcorn and watch the Rasp Pi flaming begin. (BTW, I agree with you; raspberry pi is plenty to start learning on. When you get to the limitations, you learn from them, and if necessary you can then get something "better". )

          Sure won't get any Overcooked Pi's from me. Those little things are exactly what kids and adults should learn on. I think a lot of the more structured teachings try to get them into programming a bit too quickly - let 'em learn unix/linux first, then set 'em loose.

      • I mostly agree with you. I learned on a commodore 64.

        But i have to commend the ones learning on a Timex Sinclair or a raspberry pi. The C64 had tons of (mostly pirated) games. You did a lot of gaming, a little bit of hacking to cheat and a little bit of programming. But they were mainly gaming machines and that is what the kids enjoy.

        A raspberry pi on another hand... Nice toy for nerds like yours truly but how many kids are going to play games on it ?

        Besides most people need formal training. A cool gaming c

        • by fluffernutter ( 1411889 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @03:43PM (#58100266)
          You can't lure a kid into programming by thinking that way. A kid can be both, I was, but in the end their interest in programming and/or gaming will be mutually exclusive. I know a kid who is gaming motivated. He likes to hack his nintendo with 3D models and at one point required a Python script. Since he's not interested in programming, he only gains a superficial knowledge of how to install Python on windows and where to put the script and run it. Only if he is interested in development would he attempt to delve into what the script does and entertain the taught of modifying it.
          • I don't mean mutually exclusive, I mean independent
            • Ignore last part of previous comment. I posted that before reading this one. My sentiment about lure remains.
          • Lure? I don't want anyone "lured" into any system/software area.

            their interest in programming and/or gaming will be mutually exclusive

            Mine wasn't.

            • But that is exactly what it is when you make it look like a lot of fun. At some point they will find out it won't be and at that point they lose interest or they don't.
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      What resources are they going to spend on NY? The 3 billion they get for free from NY just to be there? You sure? You can't even blackmail Bezos with dick pics, you'd think he'd go of even 1 cent?

    • by sjames ( 1099 )

      OTOH, if those incentives are instead invested directly into the community, who needs the strings?

    • As someone who grew up in New York, I have to say that Amazon would be a weird fit. New York is one of the last places in American where a small business owner... well where you can be your own person and own your own company without being a slave to a franchise.

      I'm planning on visiting the states next week with my children, we'll head to Clearwater Florida, an area I know where as I lived there for about 6 years. We make lists of things to do before going there and with the exception of Disney and the Muse
      • As someone who grew up in New York, I have to say that Amazon would be a weird fit. New York is one of the last places in American where a small business owner... well where you can be your own person and own your own company without being a slave to a franchise.

        New York is maybe the only place left in the entire U.S. that I've seen that people protect their family owned stores and prefer paying an extra 10% if it means shopping for groceries at a store where you know the owner personally.

        Come visit New O

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 10, 2019 @01:26PM (#58099604)

    It's critical that resist efforts of companies like Microsoft, Facebook, and Amazon who want to exploit public education for profit. Amazon doesn't want to help students, they want to make money and getting their hooks into lucrative contracts with schools is a core part of that.

    We've already seen Bill Gates make repeated attempts to ruin education for profit, Zuckerberg is attempting to enter that market, and now Bezos wants to do the same.

    Education only works if teachers can teach instead of being bound to reciting material designed by non-educators working for billion-dollar companies that are designed to encourage dependency on their services and work advertising into lessons. Kids don't need that, and we must reject it.

    • by MadCat221 ( 572505 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @01:28PM (#58099610)
      Three places where profit motive has absolutely no place in a healthy society: Healthcare, Corrections... and Education. Profit motive in these areas only subverts the public good.
      • Undoing misclicked mod.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      >Education only works if teachers can teach instead of being bound to reciting material designed by non-educators working for billion-dollar companies that are designed to encourage dependency on their services and work advertising into lessons.

      Oh, you mean like the standardized testing industry?

    • by Type44Q ( 1233630 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @01:43PM (#58099722)

      Keep business out of education

      This was true when Carnegie/Rockefeller and the like were trying to sabotage education and it's true now.

      A nation of idiots is far less of a threat to the ruling classes.

  • Oh, noes. (Score:2, Flamebait)

    by hey! ( 33014 )

    It would be *impossible* to prepare the kiddies for a future career in STEM without corporate support and branding.

  • Even though $3 billion sounds like a lot of money, it's not necessarily a terrible deal for the state. Assuming that you bring in 25,000 new jobs and you're not displacing anyone else as a result (which I'll admit is a bit of a stretch) and that the average salary of each employee is $100,000 (seems ballpark good based on a quick Google search and information on glassdoor), then that's nearly $3 billion that Amazon is paying back into the area in the first year. State taxes for those employees will be 6.65%
    • Your math makes it obvious. State taxes it's workers then gives it to big corporations. THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. Live and work in a state that doesn't tax you!
      • Please enlighten me as to this magical state which doesn’t tax you. I know that there are stars which don’t have an income tax, but you’d better believe that they make it up in other ways.

        Perhaps it’s advantageous for you in some states given your unique circumstances, but on average you’re better off finding states which spend the least as on average they’ll tax you least regardless of how they go about it.
  • on par with a sports stadium but without the benefit of getting to riot if you win/lose a championship. It's going to cost more in infrastructure and direct subsidies then those 25,000 jobs will every pay out (and that assumes they really bring 25k jobs).

    Let 'em go. Jeff Bezos has enough of my tax money already.
  • were only for 240 "underprivileged" high schools, which is a drop in the NYC public school system bucket.

    The additional income from additional city taxes gained from the new employees is a much bigger bucket.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Not like they would even get hired by Amazon anyway. They prefer h-1b visas where the workers can't leave for better pay and working conditions.

    Their only goal here is to flood the market with as many programmers as possible to lower their salaries. You'd think once you had more money than you could ever spend, it would be enough, but apparently not.

  • I think it's time that government in general consolidate and bulk up its capabilities to match the power of corporations (and by the way, also stop allowing people to derail it with ridiculous symbolic / meaningless debates on tiny unimportant issues).

    Whether this takes some restructuring of government at the state + federal levels and maybe some amendments to lower our expectation of individual rights compared to overall societal good, whatever. Government is being outmatched by the power of corporati
    • by Tailhook ( 98486 )

      The totalitarian instinct; make them conform to my will! Even if it's a bad idea; make them conform anyway if only to assert power.

    • Individual rights aren't the problem, the problem is extending them to corporations.
  • SubjectsSuck (Score:5, Insightful)

    by aardvarkjoe ( 156801 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @01:48PM (#58099760)

    "Amazon has extorted New York from the start, and this seems to be their next effort to do just that," he said. "If their view is, 'We won't come unless we get three billion of your dollars,' then they shouldn't come."

    This is just stupid. A deal involves two parties. New York politicians want the state to back out of their half of the deal, but this guy thinks that they should be able to hold Amazon to their half.

  • by QuietLagoon ( 813062 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @01:54PM (#58099794)
    Amazon HQ2: Texas experience shows why New Yorkers should be skeptical ( https://theconversation.com/am... [theconversation.com] )
    • by gtall ( 79522 )

      In Washington, Alexandria to be exact, Amazon is going to plunk down another HQ. Washington has the worst traffic in the nation and they decided to put right in the middle to attract even more traffic via roads that simply cannot handle what they already have. There's no reason it needs to be there and lot of reasons why it is a stupid idea.

      • by Gherald ( 682277 )

        The reason it's there is they get 4+ senators (VA, MD, to some extent WV) and local DC interests/lobbyists on their side. It's a smart strategic play by Amazon

    • Just the fact Cuomo waited UNTIL after the election to announce the deal told me enough about it. It was a bad deal if you wait til after danger of being voted out passed before revealing a deal like this.
      • by tomhath ( 637240 )
        Cuomo is setting things up to run for President. His big selling point will be all the jobs he's brought to New York; he doesn't care how much those jobs will cost the state.
  • by AmazingRuss ( 555076 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @02:21PM (#58099912)

    Give them the 3 billion anyway? After the inhabitants of the city just told Amazon to go fuck themselves?

    Telling someone to go fuck themself has consequences.

  • by godrik ( 1287354 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @02:41PM (#58100026)

    And this my friends is exactly why I am not a big fan of the argument that we should keep taxes low and rely on charities to pay for stuff.
    Once the money is given by companies, or billionaire, their donations become concerns for any negotiations. Tax them and where the money is spent is no longer their decision but the public's decision.

  • by See Attached ( 1269764 ) on Sunday February 10, 2019 @10:24PM (#58101800)
    The process of placing HQ2 considers cost and resources and not .. environment? Look at a sat picture of the chosen area. Its already packed full of people and civilization. How about going across the river and taking up a place in NJ? Plenty of space and an educated workforce and a local airport,Lots of Highways and .. Ok... a mediocre mass transit system. Amazon, make a solid impact on the place you chose to make your nest. See beyond the green stuff.
  • "Amazon has extorted New York from the start, and this seems to be their next effort to do just that,"

    Guess Bezos can only handle being the extorter, not the extortee.

    • by mentil ( 1748130 )

      The PI he hired thinks the extortion is being carried out by a government agency. At first I thought 'china/russia/NK' but now I wonder...

  • I'm just making a guess but by 'incentives' what is usually meant is 'not being required to pay taxes'.
    I've always thought it a highly disingenuous attitude suggest that someone is 'getting something for free' by not paying money. It is the idea that we somehow 'owe' taxes of a certain amount to the government, because THEY provide 'Services'. Honestly I would be happy a a LOT fewer 'services' and a lot more of my own money , that I can then either spend as needed , or use to help people I know personally

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