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YouTube To Blame For Rise in Flat Earth Believers, Says Study (cnet.com) 404

According to research, almost everyone who believes in flat Earth theory got started on YouTube. From a report: Asheley Landrum is an assistant professor of science communication at Texas Tech University. Her focus: how cultural values affect our understanding of science. Most recently she's been looking at the rise of flat Earth theory. Incredibly, more people than ever believe in a flat Earth. Google searches for "flat earth" have grown massively over the past five years and flat Earth conventions have begun popping up all over the globe. That's where Landrum focused her research. Landrum interviewed 30 people who attended one flat Earth convention and found that all but one became flat Earthers after watching videos on YouTube.

She presented her research at an event run by the American Association for the Advancement of Science. While Landrum didn't explicitly blame YouTube for the rise in flat Earth believers, she does believe that Google could be doing more to stop the spread of scientifically incorrect ideas. "There's a lot of helpful information on YouTube but also a lot of misinformation," she said, as reported by The Guardian. "Their algorithms make it easy to end up going down the rabbit hole, by presenting information to people who are going to be more susceptible to it."

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YouTube To Blame For Rise in Flat Earth Believers, Says Study

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  • by Joce640k ( 829181 ) on Monday February 18, 2019 @04:34AM (#58138522) Homepage

    A lot of the flat earthers I've met are really just trolling other people.

    If the number of "believers" is going up then it might be that the number of critical thinkers is going up.

    On the other hand it could also be that I don't hang round with the other end of the spectrum and it really is the number of idiots that's going online to confirm their beliefs that's going up.

    • by Sique ( 173459 ) on Monday February 18, 2019 @04:58AM (#58138570) Homepage
      I caution against the "I doubt it" as a way to profile oneself as critical thinker.

      Doubt is just a version of belief, albeit a belief in the negative. As Henri Poincaré eloquently pointed out: believing everything and doubting everything are equally convenient ways to avoid the work of actual thinking.

      A critical thinker has to be able to do both: list the pro- and the counter-arguments and weigh them against each other. A critical thinker has to be able to argue both sides, and to really understand the consequences of each hypothesis. And he has to be able to think of alternate third hypotheses to not fall into the false dilemma trap (e.g. there is not only Darwinism and Biblical Creationism, there is also the Flying Spaghetti Monster).

      • by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18, 2019 @05:13AM (#58138608)

        Well said. The conspiracy nut I know claims he is a free thinker and everyone else is held back by what they were taught in school. In reality he just dismisses anything mainstream and believes whatever 'feels right'.

        It's a common cry from conspiracy believers that they are the skeptics and everyone else is just blindly following.

      • by Kokuyo ( 549451 ) on Monday February 18, 2019 @05:50AM (#58138672) Journal

        I agree. A critical thinker will often change his mind, sometimes his whole outlook on life without falling into a deep crisis, or resisting the change out of a subconscious fear of that change.

        That is a pretty rare kind of human being I've unfortunately come to realise. To equate this to not believing everything you're told cheapens the value of the character trait.

        • A critical thinker will often change his mind, sometimes his whole outlook on life without falling into a deep crisis, or resisting the change out of a subconscious fear of that change.

          Bang on.

          That is a pretty rare kind of human being I've unfortunately come to realise.

          Not so rare, I think. I've been encouraged recently by people who are wiling to open their minds. I'm old enough to remember when miscegenation was considered shameful and in some places, illegal. People's minds changed on that, and widely

      • by DontBeAMoran ( 4843879 ) on Monday February 18, 2019 @09:09AM (#58139308)

        And he has to be able to think of alternate third hypotheses to not fall into the false dilemma trap (e.g. there is not only Darwinism and Biblical Creationism, there is also the Flying Spaghetti Monster).

        Well, we all know that this third hypothesis is just complete nonsense. The only valid third hypothesis is, of course, the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

      • by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18, 2019 @11:25AM (#58140118)

        A critical thinker has to be able to do both: list the pro- and the counter-arguments and weigh them against each other.

        That's all fine and dandy. But nothing in your post actually defines critical thinking. The keyword here is critical. Which is not about making up lists of arguments and explanations - anybody can do that. Its about judging the quality of those arguments. Which for most people means evaluating the source of the argument, the qualifications and trustworthiness of the people making the arguments as well as things like logical consistency (of both the argument and the people making the argument). The fact is, truth is NOT self-evident and anyone who tells you that probably doesn't want you to critically evaluate them.

        99% of the time we are not experts in the topics being debated, so we are left with critical evaluations of arguments based on external factors. Understanding how and why we evaluate those factors is central to critical thinking.

        Media literacy, in particular, is a key component of critical thinking in the internet era. The reason youtube is causing a rise in people believing in conspiracy theories like a flat-earth is because youtube is designed to maximize "engagement" and conspiracy theories are like crack for the unsophisticated - especially those who feel dis-empowered in their lives (and who doesn't feel that way at least some times?) So youtube's algorithms reward ($$$) people who make conspiracy theory videos, which induces the creation of even more conspiracy theory videos.

        In other words, the people making videos for youtube have strong incentives to be manipulative and completely dishonest because that's what youtube's algorithm rewards. The people consuming those videos aren't thinking about how those rewards degrade the trustworthiness of the video makers. Fundamentally its all a grift. A billion dollar grift. Its also the same business model as talk radio which has been lucrative AF for grifters too.

    • by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18, 2019 @05:30AM (#58138650)

      A lot of the flat earthers I've met are really just trolling other people.

      How do you know?

      There is very little difference between an idiot and someone who pretends to be an idiot.
      To the extent where there is absolutely no reason for anyone to make the distinction and treat them differently.

      • A lot of the flat earthers I've met are really just trolling other people.

        How do you know?

        Because they're not idiots. They're just trying to find out how many other people know how to prove that the earth isn't flat.

        For contrast I also know somebody who genuinely doesn't believe The Earth is round (she's an old lady with not much education so I don't devote much energy to changing her mind).

        • Because they're not idiots. They're just trying to find out how many other people know how to prove that the earth isn't flat.

          Again, how do you know? I mean I like to think my fellow man is a brainiac, but the reality and statistics will often point to a considerable portion of them being true idiots.

          The difference is with flat earthers identifying the trolling isn't as scientifically subjective as say for example the current increasing trend of malaria is indicative of anti-vaxxers.

          The world is sadly quite full of very smart idiots, and the most perfect smart troll is a person completely indistinguishable from the dumbest idiot.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Jesus H. Christ on a bicycle, believing in flat earth or other kinds of extreme nonsense has nothing to do with "critical thinking"!

      Critical thinking is the cradle of science and technology the road out from the dark ages, feudalism and authoritarianism, do not credit these cretins with any such description. What they are doing is the exact opposite, they are placing themselves or someone else who they trust as a higher authority to blindly believe in rather than trusting in science. Their choice is to avoi

      • Jesus H. Christ on a bicycle, believing in flat earth or other kinds of extreme nonsense has nothing to do with "critical thinking"!

        No, but pretending to believe in it does.

        Maybe you also believe that all those Satanist/nihilist metal bands also believe in Satan/suicide?

    • A lot of the flat earthers I've met are really just trolling other people.

      If the number of "believers" is going up then it might be that the number of critical thinkers is going up.

      On the other hand it could also be that I don't hang round with the other end of the spectrum and it really is the number of idiots that's going online to confirm their beliefs that's going up.

      Of course flat earthers are wrong. Flat is a two dimensional concept and we clearly do not live in Flatland. Flat Earthers need to change their name to Square Earthers.

      • Flat is a two dimensional concept and we clearly do not live in Flatland.

        Tell that to the believers in the holographic principle, aka leading cosmologists.

      • Flat Earthers need to change their name to Square Earthers.

        Flat Earthers do not believe the earth is square. They believe it is a circular disk.

        It is obviously not square, since the earth casts a circular shadow during a lunar eclipse.

        • It is obviously not square, since the earth casts a circular shadow during a lunar eclipse.

          Nothing obvious about it. The mental gymnastics required to explain every day phenomena like sunsets and time zones can also explain a circular shadow from a square object.

      • Of course flat earthers are wrong. Flat is a two dimensional concept and we clearly do not live in Flatland. Flat Earthers need to change their name to Square Earthers.

        I KNEW IT! That TimeCube guy [youtube.com] was right!

    • by Z80a ( 971949 ) on Monday February 18, 2019 @05:45AM (#58138664)

      Defending flat earth is a hell of an discussion and debate exercise.
      It's probably one of the hardest non-evil things to actually defend.

      • by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18, 2019 @06:14AM (#58138722)

        Not at all, you just need to declare all evidence contrary to your beliefs as being "fake".

        You cherry pick any conclusions that can be used to prove your claims while dismissing any conclusions that are contrary to your views and voila.

        It may be hard to defend if you are debating honestly, but it's not that hard if you rely on deceptions and lies. As far as I know, most flat earthers fall into the latter category.

        • Not at all, you just need to declare all evidence contrary to your beliefs as being "fake".

          You have be very creative to explain a sunset as "fake" when you can witness it yourself.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Does it matter what they really believe in their heart-of-hearts?

      Someone might not believe that there are literal angels or that when they die they are literally tortured for eternity, but that doesn't really matter if the result is the same, e.g. they support religion based policies and morality stemming for those ideas.

      Believing in a flat earth may seem somewhat benign, but if it results in more impressionable people being mislead (e.g. children) or people using it to enrich themselves by organizing profi

      • by cs96and ( 896123 ) on Monday February 18, 2019 @08:55AM (#58139242)

        Yes, it matters.

        I recommend watching the documentary "Behind The Curve" on Netflix. I watch it last night and it was a real eye-opener.

        In the last few years, Flat Earthers have gone from being a joke to something that a lot of people take very, very seriously. These people go hand-in-hand with anti-vaxxers, climate change deniers and creationists as part of a new wave of "Anti-Intellectualism".

        Flat Earthers want Flat Earth theory to be taught in schools. That statement alone should be enough to make you realize that this has now gone beyond a joke and is something that should be vehimintly denied. The problem is that Flat Earthers are impossible to reason with. They keep saying "there is no scientific proof for a round earth", but if you try to present any sort of proof they completely dismiss it. Some of them even tried to do their own experiments [youtube.com] to prove the earth was flat and (surprise, surprise) the experiments instead showed that the earth was round. This then just leads them to believe that their experiment is flawed in someway. They are completely unwilling to take on board any facts that disprove the flat earth theory.

        The funny thing is, Mark Sargent (the "King" of the Flat Earthers) says that you should "question everything". Yet these people are completely unwilling to question their own theory.

        • I recommend watching the documentary "Behind The Curve" on Netflix.

          I was wondering if it was any good. Thank you.

          In the last few years, Flat Earthers have gone from being a joke to something that a lot of people take very, very seriously. These people go hand-in-hand with anti-vaxxers, climate change deniers and creationists as part of a new wave of "Anti-Intellectualism".

          Aren't all of these groups mostly a USA-only thing? Is it coming from a lack of education, or something else?

        • I find climate change to be a different category than the others.

          One it has to do with falsifiable predictions for the future (which currently they are not - or have been proved wildly inaccurate.)

          Second it has a lot to do with bad science reporting - but still the scientists are not rebuking the nonsense. Example that CO2 is a leading indicator for rise in temperatures.

          Third, it has to with solutions for the problem. Not one of them brings acknowledges that renewable energy production has been growi
          • Therefore by 2040 we will be able to source all our current use of electricity by renewables plus a lot more.

            Electricity generation only accounts for about a quarter of total energy use, and it's the easiest to replace by renewables.

            • That's true.

              But I was understating my case. Projecting the same growth rate to 2040 would be a 1000x increase over current production. That would take care of all electric generation plus allow for electric cars to supplant petrol based cars.
              • Right, but you also need to account for time required to upgrade grid and replace all existing transportation. Also keep in mind that wind/solar installations start with the best locations, and that subsequent expansions have to move to poorer places, limiting their growth rate.

    • by JustNiz ( 692889 )

      > it might be that the number of critical thinkers is going up.

      Nope, trolls are just attention-whores that aren't smart enough to come up with anything that contributes to the discussion, so they try and subvert it into their own dumbed-down one.

    • by Jahta ( 1141213 ) on Monday February 18, 2019 @08:05AM (#58139000)

      A lot of the flat earthers I've met are really just trolling other people.

      Well Flat Earth Conventions [arstechnica.com] and even cruises [theguardian.com] are a thing, so it's not just trolling. And the folks who attend these things genuinely seem to believe they are doing actual science, while proper peer-reviewed science is considered to be part of some grand conspiracy.

      The problem with Youtube, in my experience, is with the recommendation system. I regularly get fringe political, pseudo-science, and conspiracy theory videos showing up as "Recommended for you"; even though they are in no way relevant what I'm watching or searching for.

    • I have a brother that will gladly troll you on flat earth, global warming, etc... just bring up a subject and he will disagree with you no matter which side you take. I think he get's a kick out of it.

  • by phonewebcam ( 446772 ) on Monday February 18, 2019 @04:35AM (#58138528) Homepage

    ..over the globe"

    We all saw what you did there.

  • by lucasnate1 ( 4682951 ) on Monday February 18, 2019 @04:52AM (#58138556) Homepage

    It relied on the assumption that most people are rational, which in fact they were not. It was able to support itself using media gatekeepers which prevented mass-hysteria of the population and managed to keep them educated and informed to some extent. The moment that freedom of speech became absolute, and any idea of "knowledgeable" or "respectable" was lost, the truth about the populous was revealed. It was then that many people began to realize that democracy is based on a lie - that every man is rational.

    • by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Monday February 18, 2019 @06:24AM (#58138732)

      A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it!
      --Agent K, MiB

      Or, as I tend to put it, the collective IQ of a group can be determined by taking the IQ of the biggest idiot and dividing by the number of feet.

      The only thing the internet changed was that no loonie is alone anymore. Before the internet, anyone who had some batshit crazy outlook on life got a pretty quick reality check when his tinfoil hattery hit the reality of the rest of the world around him. Now it's easier than ever to find others who believe the same bullshit.

      • Or, as I tend to put it, the collective IQ of a group can be determined by taking the IQ of the biggest idiot and dividing by the number of feet.

        Clearly, we need to use a group of legless amputees as our leaders.

    • by tomhath ( 637240 )

      It relied on the assumption that most people are rational, which in fact they were not.

      Democracy is far better than being ruled by a cadre of irrational tyrants.

      • In a world of mass media, being ruled by the people ends up being ruled by a cadre of irrational tyrants (media tycoons and fringe movements that know how to get likes) whose words are constantly distorted further and further.

  • by wolfheart111 ( 2496796 ) on Monday February 18, 2019 @04:58AM (#58138572)
    We are in a simulation, so the earth must be flat like a CD or circuit board... lol
    • by mentil ( 1748130 )

      Evidence that we're not in a 'holographic universe' suggests that our universe wasn't optimized for data efficiency, which is a strike against the simulation hypothesis; a hologram would be flat though. A simulation computer would probably use solid-state 3d chips though (a la 3d NAND). A block of computronium would probably be programmed like an FPGA, so there'd be no circuit boards; traces would be replaced with vias and internal allocation of resources.

      • by abies ( 607076 )
        I don't see a reason why world in which simulation hardware runs should be in any way similar to ours. It can be as well 4d spatial dimensions one, with multiple spin axis for elemental particles etc. I think it makes sense for each deeper simulation level to be significantly simpler than previous one (same way as we would not run full quantum-level, universe scale simulator in our world, but rather do a lot of simplifications to reduce required data complexity).
        • I don't see a reason why world in which simulation hardware runs should be in any way similar to ours.

          A total lack of evidence?

  • Ones who start with Youtube, probably have trouble reading text, so they prefer video as source of information.
    Of course, most of flatearthers are those who haven't read their textbooks in school.

  • by FudRucker ( 866063 ) on Monday February 18, 2019 @05:27AM (#58138642)
    you got to convince the flat earthers that the earth is really a cube, then gradually soften the corners of the cube so it is back to being a sphere
    • by mark-t ( 151149 )

      Actually, a tetrahedron.

      Haven't you ever heard of the expression "the 4 corners of the earth"?

  • These people would have latched onto some other pseudo scientific belief if it wasn't "flat earthism" if youtube didn't exist. Youtube didn't make these people illogical, it just gave them something to latch onto.
  • The media is complicit in so many narratives they can't keep them straight. Or, they just assume their readers will take them at their word and never fact check them.

    If YouTube creates more flat earthers (as opposed to simply attracting existing ones), then can't the same be said for radical Islam? Which means we SHOULD be taking it far more seriously than they want us to currently?

  • ...the Vril will take care of those gullible flat-earthers when they arise from their subterranean lair.
  • by kgroombr ( 608645 ) on Monday February 18, 2019 @07:02AM (#58138826)
    YouTube is not to blame for people believing that the world is flat. There are many posts that argue both sides, so if a person watched and listened to both sides of the argument, then they could formulate their own opinion. The problem is that people tend to sway to things they already believe in, and support their ideology, so they are typically getting only one side of the argument; thus, it reinforces what they already want to believe. YouTube is to blame for this, like a spoon is to blame for making me fat.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      The real problem is not youtube, as a giant repository of video on all kinds of things. The real problem is the algorithm that suggests videos for watching. The algorithm is probably right as it is, if someone enjoys flat earth stuff they may very well enjoy more flat earth stuff. I guess that youtube could modify the suggestion algorithm to offer pro's and con's for subjects but that almost certainly would piss people off too. Imagine someone who watched a video named "Why X fails" seeing suggestions o

  • Slashdot Headlines (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Dan East ( 318230 ) on Monday February 18, 2019 @07:37AM (#58138916) Journal

    YouTube To Blame For Rise in Flat Earth Believers, Says Study

    While Landrum didn't explicitly blame YouTube for the rise in flat Earth believers

    When your headline is so inaccurate that it is contradicted right in the summary...

  • Seriously, the tin foil hat wearers use to read books on the subjects they believed in. Or subscribed to magazines that was geared to those type of tin foil theories. YouTube may have increased the number of idiots, but they were always around. And they always had material they could read on the subject. YouTube is not the catch all for the ill's of the world. Those ill's were always here, and just fed and nurtured in different ways.
  • by kbaud ( 1001076 ) on Monday February 18, 2019 @08:03AM (#58138996)
    Several articles now have talked about how youtube is feeding various undesirable ideas. I suspect this will be followed by calls for censorship.
    • by nucrash ( 549705 )

      That's my biggest issue and yes that's a slippery slope argument.

      I do think that algorithms for videos should work to push scientifically backed counter videos. I know this is possible because this is already done with advertisements. The difference is they have to make this decision based on morality and not advertising dollars. That can be tough for a billion dollar corporation to do.

  • These are people who believe NASA guards the ice wall. The second Google identifies and 'educates' these misguided people, it'll only fuel their us vs. them mentality.
  • Simply because Google/YouTube returns something in a search doesn't mean it's responsible for the content in the search.
    And if some potato heads choose to play "pretend" that the world is a dinner plate, that's fine.
    We are NOT the friggin' Thought Police.

    We simply correct for it elsewhere (such as if said potato heads gain some form of temporal authority).

  • Thought police? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by NormAtHome ( 99305 ) on Monday February 18, 2019 @09:50AM (#58139566)

    I'm the last person to argue that the earth is flat since all evidence is to the contrary but I also think that there are concerns over free speech and that "she does believe that Google could be doing more to stop the spread of scientifically incorrect ideas" she thinks google should do something to suppress idea's or beliefs and that in and of itself should be cause for concern. There are a lot of conflicts between what some people believe and what science says, the anti-vax movement is such a instance with plenty of scientific study's saying vaccinations don't cause autism but there also appears to be plenty of anecdotal evidence saying the opposite. I find it very dangerous to even consider giving a company like google the power to suppress idea's or to try and silence people who have a opinion that's not supported by science since aside from free speech there are also censorship concerns.

    • but there also appears to be plenty of anecdotal evidence saying the opposite.

      Here's the thing: There isn't plenty of anecdotal evidence saying the opposite.

      There's the appearance of this because there's a whole lot of people trying to extract money from gullible people. After all, the gullible are fantastic financial targets, since you can just say anything and they'll keep buying your expensive snake oil.

      These money extraction efforts are served by YouTube's current algorithm because it plays grifter after grifter until viewers start to think there's plenty of anecdotal evidence.

  • serious flat earthers are there? I doubt it is statistically significant. Lump 'em with the majick-underwear-wearing Mormons, Satanists, and other eccentrics. Not a big deal.
  • One question that I've never gotten a good answer to and simply don't understand: WHAT MEANS TO AN END?

    Meaning -- a true flat earther believes that ALL the governments of the world along with scientists, media, etc ... and ALL trying to make us believe the world is round.

    Ok ... what means to an end? WHY would they do this? HOW do they benefit from hiding the FLAT truth to you?

    Makes so sense. Oh, and the world is round. Ish.

  • Take me to the edge.

    There's a song in there somewhere, and I mean a good one; not the one from Magnum [stlyrics.com].

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