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Britain and Germany Will Not Ban Huawei, Citing Lack of Spying Evidence (reuters.com) 240

Posted by BeauHD from the show-me-the-evidence dept.
An anonymous Slashdot reader writes from a report via Reuters: Despite persistent U.S. allegations of Chinese state spying, Britain said it is able to manage the security risks of using Huawei telecom equipments and has not seen any evidence of malicious activity by the company, a senior official said on Wednesday. Asked later whether Washington had presented Britain with any evidence to support its allegations, he told reporters: "I would be obliged to report if there was evidence of malevolence [...] by Huawei. And we're yet to have to do that. So I hope that covers it."

At the same time, German officials have told The Wall Street Journal that the country has made a "preliminary decision" to allow Huawei to bid on contracts for 5G networking. Catering to the surging populism, the U.S. has accused Huawei and other Chinese telecom equipments, along with European cars, as national security risks, even though the National Security Agency, American's cyber spying agency, was found to have wiretapped German Chancellor Angela Merkel, conducted economic espionage against France, and hacked into Chinese networks. Earlier this week, beleaguered Huawei founder Ren Zhengfei described the continued investigations by the U.S. into the Chinese firm -- including the arrest of his daughter and company CFO, Meng Wanzhou -- as politically motivated.
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Britain and Germany Will Not Ban Huawei, Citing Lack of Spying Evidence More

Britain and Germany Will Not Ban Huawei, Citing Lack of Spying Evidence

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  • Boy who cried wolf (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Livius ( 318358 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @08:44PM (#58155544)

    The US has squandered its credibility. I can't say that Huawei inspires me with trust, but US accusations mean nothing.

    • The US has squandered its credibility.

      Huh? We pissed that away before GW'd barely begun. Anyway, to paraphrase Mao, "credibility" comes from the point of a gun.

    • The US has squandered its credibility. I can't say that Huawei inspires me with trust, but US accusations mean nothing.

      ... and now that the US is being ruled by New York's village idiot and has decided to isolate itself, the EU is beginning to move closer to the fastest growing, and soon to be largest single economy in the world. The real irony of the situation is that this entire evolution is being driven by Trumpism and would not be happening if it wasn't for the Trump administration. American politics has devolved into a foot shooting contest.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Shaitan ( 22585 )

        The EU isn't one country but that aside it wouldn't be wise for the EU to slip into the top spot even if they could. The thing about being number one is that it makes you a fat and ripe target and the EU is low hanging fruit. The US, China, and Russia can swoop in pretty much anytime and scoop it up. Hell the US already conquered it once, it was just held by the Germans at the time and they kindly gave it back to the people the Germans took it from. The US is much stronger now than then and China and Russia

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • It's naive to think foreign designs are no threat (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Every sufficiently capable country should be mandating a complete set of source code minimally and ideally developing homegrown designs and manufacturing capability for security reasons. Relying on the US, China, and/or other countries is a really bad idea. Some countries have recognized the threat and responded accordingly. At least India, Russia, and Iran have some home-grown design, development, and manufacturing capabilities that they are working on. If only they were offering competing products on the

  • Or corrupt, no real third option here.

  • Does evidence of bad customer service count? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by shanen ( 462549 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @08:55PM (#58155594) Homepage Journal

    The real problem would be finding evidence that American companies can be trusted, eh?

    From the purely economic perspective, China has the most to lose if they allow any private companies to get involved in spying. I'd go even farther and say that the Chinese leaders (including Xi) have redefined "communism" to mean "whatever makes money". That means it would now be an attack on "The Party" if Huawei did anything that threatened their corporate profits.

    Having said that, I think the real threat to Huawei's profits is bad customer service. I've actually owned about 6 Huawei devices going back more than a decade. Technically they have all been on the scale from good to excellent, and the prices have put them on the scale from excellent value to superior, but the customer service has always been on the scale from none to miserable. I think if Huawei seriously wants to be an international player in broader areas of consumer electronics, they desperately need to rethink and redo their entire customer service operation. Nuking the support part of their website would be a good start. (Maybe it isn't so gawdawful in Chinese? I'm sure it can't be worse.)

    Then again, there are some features to look for to determine if ANY maker's devices have been designed with espionage in mind. Level 0 would be things like unmentioned microphones, but the google just won that boobie prize. Level 1 would be reasonable features like EEPROM that has legitimate purposes but which could be used to install malware. After all, every device may need an upgrade at some point.

    Level 2 would be clever design for fail safe concealment of the espionage-related capabilities. For example, a DRAM without power protection could be used for holding malware that would automatically disappear when the power is cut for any reason. Part of the POST could check for the network environment so as to detect if the device has been moved into a trap or DMZ (thus preventing re-installation of the spyware).

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      My Huawei just got Android Pie update last night. I am pleased because I owned the Android phone for a year now. All my previous Android phones got 0 support after 3 months of owning them.

    • Re:Does evidence of bad customer service count? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Orgasmatron ( 8103 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @09:46PM (#58155784)

      Huawei is not a private company. It is a state-run institution. The only private companies in China are small to medium operations. Everything big enough to be strategically important is owned and/or managed by the Chinese army or the Chinese Communist Party.

      Americans tend to assume that the rest of the world is like the US, but it isn't. Here, we have private companies. They are usually willing to cooperate to some extent with the government, but they are still mostly privately owned and managed. That is approximately the current situation throughout most of Western Civilization, but it is actually quite rare elsewhere.

      Most importantly, China does not run on that model at all. The Chinese Communist Party owns the government and military, which in turn owns almost all of the industry and technology.

      Imagine if the NSA got into the business of building cell phone network equipment using chips produced by the Air Force Cyber Command's semiconductor foundry and financed as a joint venture by the CIA and the Pentagon. No big deal, right?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by shanen ( 462549 )

        Were you talking to me? There is a tangential point of possible contact in my second paragraph.

        Based on what you wrote, I think you are quite naive about how the CIA and NSA do things. Also misguided about China, though that's more in the area of exaggeration. There are more similarities in the behavior of corporate cancers than you seem to appreciate.

        However your apparent attitude certainly makes it appear that you would hate to be confused by any actual facts that don't support what you've already decided

      • US Industry==US Governmnt (Score:4, Insightful)

        by ghoul ( 157158 ) on Thursday February 21, 2019 @12:13AM (#58156142)

        If you think US Industry and US Government are not connected when the corporations basically buy the elections for their favorit politicians than I have a bridge to sell you. US National Security is defined as whatever is good for US business. Huawei was alright till it was making copies of Western Tech. Now that they have actually overtaken and hold most of the 5G patents they are bad for US business and hence bad for US National Security.
        Whether the companies are state owned or the state is company owned in neither China or the US system do you have independent govt and industry.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Shaitan ( 22585 )

          "If you think US Industry and US Government are not connected when the corporations basically buy the elections for their favorit politicians than I have a bridge to sell you. US National Security is defined as whatever is good for US business. "

          It is a completely different thing. Politicians are sold on the free market as well in the US and they battle each other, whatever is helping one company or industry is hurting another. The form of business and government interaction that is of concern in the US is

          • Thats a distinction without a difference. Neither US is a capitalist country nor is China a Communist country. Both of them are Crony Capitalist or Fascist (Like Mussolinis Italy).
            Fascism without the racism comes down to state directed capitalism where the State instead of being a regulator (as in Capitalism) or owner (as in Communism) is a promoter of industry. State directed capitalism. Mostly directed through export licenses, tax incentives, tariffs, exemptions to worker laws.
            Nothing wrong with fascism (

      • Huawei is not a private company. It is a state-run institution. The only private companies in China are small to medium operations. Everything big enough to be strategically important is owned and/or managed by the Chinese army or the Chinese Communist Party.

        Americans tend to assume that the rest of the world is like the US, but it isn't. Here, we have private companies. They are usually willing to cooperate to some extent with the government, but they are still mostly privately owned and managed. That is approximately the current situation throughout most of Western Civilization, but it is actually quite rare elsewhere.

        Most importantly, China does not run on that model at all. The Chinese Communist Party owns the government and military, which in turn owns almost all of the industry and technology.

        Imagine if the NSA got into the business of building cell phone network equipment using chips produced by the Air Force Cyber Command's semiconductor foundry and financed as a joint venture by the CIA and the Pentagon. No big deal, right?

        Huawei is not owned by the Chinese state. It is owned by the company's employees, Ren Zhengfei (founder & CEO) and some of the managers with the latter two probably owning a majority of the shares. The Company employees shares are managed by the employee union.

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by shanen ( 462549 )

            In general that website is not a credible source, though it is possible the specific author is an outlier. If you want to cite such sources, you need to include something to indicate that you or the source are worth paying attention to.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        So the main difference is that in China the government controls big companies, and in the US the big companies control the government.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by shanen ( 462549 )

          Very succinct response, though I suspect you're trying to argue with a troll. While I agree with you, I think there is actually an adversarial element involved because the corporations (and the fools who think they own and control the corporations rather than vice versa) are locked into the single dimension of money. Therefore they are focused on buying the cheapest politicians, which ultimately evolved into "investing" most of their money in the former Republican Party. Yes, they still make some donations

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Shaitan ( 22585 )

      "From the purely economic perspective, China has the most to lose if they allow any private companies to get involved in spying."

      Chinese major private companies ARE public companies. The US state exchanging spies with other countries is of little relevance the companies here largely make or break on their own with the exception of some security concerns.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by shanen ( 462549 )

        Unclear what you are tying to say. About the most charitable interpretation I can imagine is that you are confused about reverse engineering and standardization. The entire IP question is a can of worms that I did not particularly want to open here.

        My (intended) focus was on Huawei's pretenses of being an international company...

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      China uses economics to create "soft power". Where the US would send in the CIA to organize a coup or assassinate someone, China offers loans and builds infrastructure and does a lot of our manufacturing.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by shanen ( 462549 )

        Another short and insightful reply, but where are the mod points. (In my own case, I think they they've been permanently removed.)

        And yet no one in this discussion has offered any constructive suggestions on the primary topic. I still have no idea what to do about Huawei's terrible customer support for my latest (and possibly final) Huawei device. They actually sent me email offering to exchange it, which is NOT what I want. Near as I can tell, there is nothing wrong with it, but I just don't understand it

  • Spy chips on SuperMicro boards and WMDs in Iraq (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ffkom ( 3519199 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @09:00PM (#58155606)
    The allegations against Huawei are as credible as the Bloomberg Story on spy chips on SuperMicro boards and the reports on WMDs in Iraq.

    Sure one has to assume back-doors exist in network equipment and handle the risks - but in Cisco hardware, such back-doors (as trivial as "default passwords") pop up like every other month, even before the NSA tampers with the devices during shipment.

  • BND and GCHQ say no to the NSA? (Score:3)

    by AHuxley ( 892839 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @09:06PM (#58155638) Journal
    Why is the USA letting the BND and GCHQ say no to US directions on Communist telecom equipment?

    The NSA allowed the BND and GCHQ to grow. Their staff worked with the NSA/CIA for decades.
    This is how the BND and GCHQ responds to the USA after decades of US support and sharing?
    The USA asked Germany and the UK for one telco thing over the decades and the UK and Germany say no the USA?
    All the training, equipment, crypto help, tracking of the IRA and the UK says no after decades of free US support?
    All the help the USA tax payers gave West Germany with the Stasi and Soviet Union?

    Time for the USA to get its Special Relationship going with Canada and New Zealand.
    Give more supportive nations like New Zealand the full NSA upgrades and let Germany and the UK enjoy their Communist telecom equipment.
    5 eye nations that like the USA, the NSA and its decades of support. Nations that appreciate US tax payers support.

    The US supported the UK and West German, now Germany for decades.
    Now Germany and the UK will trade that US support all in for one generation of Communist telecom equipment?

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      or, all 3 of them, the US, Germany and Great Britain, are liberal democracies, and the military can't control the idiots in charge. Compare that to China, where the military has executive control of all corporations of any strategic interest, and there is no difference between senior party leadership and senior military leadership.

      Yes, politicians will be fucking idiots. That happens in liberal democracies.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      ROTFLMAO.
      When the French bombed the "Rainbow Warrior", where was the USA, that's right , saying nothing, doing nothing because New Zealand had gone antinuclear.
      The US even put in trade barriers (while giving China Favoured Nation Status).
      At the Peal Harbour remembrance, the New Zealand navy was not permitted to be in the military base but in the civilian port.
      The US has ben taken multiple times to the WTO (which the US set up for its benefit) by NZ to fight trade barriers, tariffs , agricultural subsidies,

  • The problem the US have with Huawei is about more than whether they have been spying or not - it's about the fact that the US as a nation have lost control of the technology because the Chinese are the only credible firms producing 5G equipment. That means that they can control or break the standards in subtle ways, and then deliberately make it much harder or impossible for US (or other non-Chinese) firms to compete on a level playing field (by making only Chinese equipment truly cross-compatible). I don't

  • People often forget that most telecommunication companies used to be owned by their own government before 1990, and there are still many in Western Europe. Deutsche Telekom, present in the USA, has 38% state ownership. Do you care about German spies? Nope.

  • ...now the UK just have to stop threatening to send their war ships into sensitive areas[1] and that'll help avoid pissing off the Chinese and perhaps help them post Brexit.

    [1] If they really want to ensure freedom of navigation, why not send a dirt great oil tanker or something? TBH, I imagine there are very many British ships going through those seas every day. Is there any evidence of the Chinese trying to prevent *anyone* using those waters? ...anyone who isn't an obvious threat to them, that is.

  • Bigger issues (Score:4, Interesting)

    by LostMyAccount ( 5587552 ) on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:37AM (#58157018)

    Britain is facing Brexit and a bunch of trade and economic issues. They'd rather stay in the good graces of the Chinese, the idea being they can replace stuff they would have bought from Europe with Chinese goods. And then there's the idea that if they don't get on board with 5G at a price point they can afford, their economic disadvantages will be worse yet.

    The Germans probably figure they're just too smart to worry about hacked Chinese equipment, especially if they can isolate it with some good homegrown or European sourced technology. Plus they may well have come up with counter-espionage techniques that defeat Russian and American penetration that defeating the Chinese can't be any harder.

    And in both cases, we can blame Trump's idiotic foreign policy for some of this. I'd wager if we had made Britain feel like they had a trade ally in Brexit and not shit all over German foreign policy, they might have gone along with us on Chinese telecom equipment.

  • Remember when Obama was in office and there was outrage over spying on Angela Merkel's phone? Yeah, figured you forgot about that.

    So Germany can either get in bed with America again, where the Germans know for an absolute FACT that America will be spying on them... or, they could take a gamble on Huawei.

    As a government, I wouldn't trust either, but since they are not making the technology themselves, they will have to choose the lesser of the evils.

  • If Huawei really is an innocently accused company that has nothing to do with the Chinese state and its intelligence branches, they should state so and if necessary move out of China to escape any forced cooperation. But this hasn't happened and to me it is a clear admission that all the rumors are true.

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