TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns To Trick You Into Paying To File Your Taxes (propublica.org) 263
ProPublica reports on the shady tactics TurboTax and other tax software companies use to prevent most Americans from filing their taxes for free. According to an agreement with the IRS, tax software companies are supposed to offer a "Free File" product to Americans making less than $66,000 a year. From the report: Here's what happened when we went looking. Our first stop was Google. We searched for "irs free file taxes." And we thought we found what we were looking for: Ads from TurboTax and others directing us to free products. The first link looked promising. It contained the word "free" five times! We clicked and were relieved to see that filing for free was guaranteed. We started the process by creating the profile of a TaskRabbit house cleaner who took in $29,000. We entered extensive personal information. TurboTax asked us to click through more than a dozen questions and prompts about our finances. After all of that, only then did we get the bad news: TurboTax revealed this wasn't going to be free at all. Turns out the house cleaner didn't qualify because he is a independent contractor. The charge? $119.99.
Then we tried with a second scenario. We went back to TurboTax.com and clicked on "FREE Guaranteed." This time, we went through the process as a Walgreens cashier without health insurance, entering personal information and giving the company lots of sensitive data. Again, TurboTax told us we had to pay -- this time because there's an extra form if you don't have insurance. The charge? $59.99. But wait. Are the house cleaner and the cashier not allowed to prepare and file their taxes for free because of their particular tax situations? No! According to the agreement between the IRS and the companies, anyone who makes less than $66,000 can prepare and file their taxes for free. After doing some digging in the source code, ProPublica found that TurboTax had branded them as "Non Free File Alliance" or NONFFA.
"Even though TurboTax could tell we were eligible to file for free, the company never told us about the truly free version. It turns out that if you start the process from TurboTax.com, it's impossible to find the truly free version. The company itself admits this."
Another Google search brought them to a page with two options: "See If You Qualify" and "Start for Free." The "Start for Free" link brought them back to the version of TurboTax where they had to pay, but the "See If You Quality" link finally took them to the real Free File program.
Then we tried with a second scenario. We went back to TurboTax.com and clicked on "FREE Guaranteed." This time, we went through the process as a Walgreens cashier without health insurance, entering personal information and giving the company lots of sensitive data. Again, TurboTax told us we had to pay -- this time because there's an extra form if you don't have insurance. The charge? $59.99. But wait. Are the house cleaner and the cashier not allowed to prepare and file their taxes for free because of their particular tax situations? No! According to the agreement between the IRS and the companies, anyone who makes less than $66,000 can prepare and file their taxes for free. After doing some digging in the source code, ProPublica found that TurboTax had branded them as "Non Free File Alliance" or NONFFA.
"Even though TurboTax could tell we were eligible to file for free, the company never told us about the truly free version. It turns out that if you start the process from TurboTax.com, it's impossible to find the truly free version. The company itself admits this."
Another Google search brought them to a page with two options: "See If You Qualify" and "Start for Free." The "Start for Free" link brought them back to the version of TurboTax where they had to pay, but the "See If You Quality" link finally took them to the real Free File program.
It should be mentioned (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: It should be mentioned (Score:5, Informative)
Re: It should be mentioned (Score:5, Informative)
Yup; and companies like Intuit and H&R Block are lobbying to make sure the government can't do it for you. Probably support more complicated and ambiguous tax code so more people are forced to use their services.
And here's an article about that: Bill Would Ban IRS From Creating Free Electronic Tax Filing System [npr.org]
If you want to file online, you typically have to go through a private company like H&R Block or Intuit, the makers of TurboTax.
Why do you have to use them? Well, an agreement with the IRS and private tax prep companies prevents Americans from filing directly online with the IRS. And that rule could become permanent. Lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are trying to pass the so-called Taxpayer First Act, which would permanently bar the IRS from creating a free electronic tax filing system.
Not really sure how this puts the "taxpayer first" ... seems like it puts the companies first. Normally, I'd bitch about Republicans skullduggery, as this seems right up their alley, but -- as noted in the article -- this has bi-partisan support, possibly for other reasons..
MARTIN: So is it safe to assume that there was just a lot of lobbying on the part of companies that get paid when consumers come in and say - these are too complicated for me to do. Can you do them?
ELLIOTT: Yeah. I mean, just H&R Block and Intuit - those are the two biggest - together, they spent over $6 million dollars lobbying on issues, including this one, last year - had been pushing for this to make it into law for many years now. And the current bill contains a lot of other provisions, including some that are supported by consumer advocates. And I think that's one of the reasons it's now getting bipartisan support and might make it into law.
Federal Bills: Same rules as ballot measures: (Score:2, Informative)
Not really sure how this puts the "taxpayer first" ... seems like it puts the companies first.
Just as with ballot measures at the sate and local level, the title and summary (along with any ballot arguments) are NOT the law, may have nothing to do with it, or may be outright lies.
They're a salesman's puffery, to try to attract votes (or extort them from representatives by giving them choices like voting for genocide or against something that sounds like a must-support-or-you're-a-tyrant bill).
One example:
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A bill to create or raise a tax might create a fund earmarked for some purpose, or set of purposes. But right at then end they tack on "or any other legal purpose."
Or the first bill into the hopper the following session amends the law to allow some other purpose.
We got a wonderful tax on our water bill, of all things, specifically to pay for fixing two specific streets that the contractor had screwed up ten years ago. Those streets are now fixed. And the tax is still on the water bill because it was such a great, easy way for the city to get money. It was joined by more taxes that pay to trim trees on private property, fix sidewalks that the homeowners used to be res
Re:Federal Bills: Same rules as ballot measures: (Score:5, Interesting)
No, they are not. Dreamers are another thing entirely. Those that fall under the DACA program were brought into the country by their parents, usually legally, when they were still children. Their parents then overstayed their visas or whatnot, making them "illegals". What is a child to do in that case? Not that they had a lot of choice in the matter. I know one such "dreamer" who was brought into the USA as a 3 year old and her parents then overstayed their visa. They have jobs, pay taxes, support their community. She is now struggling to keep a job while attending college, trying to make something of herself. She can't go back to Mexico since she doesn't have a Mexican passport. She has no real path to citizenship short of getting married. Those in the DACA program really need to be allowed to naturalize. She has been in the USA for 20+ years, knows nobody in Mexico, but could be deported at any time, even though she's following all the rules and is, in every way that matters, an American.
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Letting her stay rewards her parents for breaking the law.
Deporting her punishes her for her parents' actions.
Re:Federal Bills: Same rules as ballot measures: (Score:4, Insightful)
Letting her stay rewards her parents for breaking the law.
Yeah, you want to penalize the parents but can't do it, so you want to penalize their love one instead? I can see how coward and cruel you are. I have no problem deporting those parents because of their own action, but include the kids who were here by force without any other way out is something more heartless act. If they actually cut-out the valid time for DACA (e.g. only valid to those kids who are brought in and undocumented in the country on or before the day the bill was passed), it would be better stop exploiting the law later on.
I suspect many or most people who have eluded justice would say they same thing for themselves if eventually discovered. Should just look the other way if we finally find information about that hit-and-run 10 years ago or the arson?
Now you assume that every single undocumented/illegal alien is a criminal. I can see who you are supporting. If that the case of someone being discovered with criminal records later on, then deal with it as Americans if the person has become an American. Aren't 'Statue of Limitations' for? If it is a serious crime and/or the statue of limitation hasn't run out, then prosecute the person. How's difficult about the matter?
The thing is that there are some who did that, but most of them don't. Most of them want to make better money compared to where they came from, so that they can have a better lives. But no, you just look at all of them as criminal, not offenders (to the immigration laws). I don't have problem if they deport those criminals, but don't tell me that you just look the other way and want an easy way out by assuming that everyone is.
Crimes should involve intent and as a child she did not have an intent; not even 'negligently' because she had no ability to do anything about her situation. Therefor she inst [sic] a criminal. Now just not being a criminal does not grant one the right to reside in the United States. So if you ask me the rule of law demands she be required to leave but fairness demands she should be permitted to access the existing lottery system, work visa, ... systems or any future immigration path opened without prejudice.
You have no idea how to go through a process to become a citizen, do you? You just think that these kids get it an easy way, don't you? You think that they all of the sudden live in American dream while they are growing up, don't you? You think they don't have to do anything but rather get a free path without living through any tough time that their parents force them to go through with them, don't you? This is what some Americans think -- take it for grant being an American. There is no educational class to teach these people. The only way that they can learn it from is life experience, either direct (one of the kids) or indirect (knowing those who have gone through very well). I can tell you that no, it is not as easy as stamping. There are a lot of things involved and a very long time consuming.
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It does show how inefficient the system is that they could overstay their visa, yet stay in the system (working and paying taxes) without being caught.
Actually it shows how efficient the system actually is. They overstayed their visa which is against the law true but why waste resources deporting them when they are in fact contributing to society?
If you have such a hard stance against breaking the law I hope that you go directly to the DMV every time you go over the posted speed limit and pay your fine. I hope you send the taxes to your state on everything you buy online from out of state.
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Not really sure how this puts the "taxpayer first"
It obviously doesn't. ...and part of an agreement like that should be that they're required to make the free version prominent and easy to find on their web site, not "if you start the process from TurboTax.com, it's impossible to find the truly free version. The company itself admits this."
Re:It should be mentioned (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed. Lobbyist bribery worked. The IRS can generate a default filing profile, and citizens could accept it by letting it be, or simply signing off a pre-generated form. One only explicitly files if they want special deductions.
In many cases the deductions could be submitted by themselves rather than have to generate the whole kit and caboodle.
The American people have been had. I hope one of the presidential candidates takes this up as a cause.
Re: It should be mentioned (Score:4, Insightful)
File on paper. It's free and the instructions have many more helpful facts about credits and deductions. I have never had an online service save me more money then just following the instructions from the IRS and state. Of course you have to be patient and read intelligently, but if you've gone through it all once, hopefully it's a heck of a lot easier in future years. The great thing about the IRS is they have nothing to sell you, so they are as honest as the day is long.
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I've actually had to set the IRS straight a few times, in fact EVERY time they've assessed my taxes they've been incorrect and always in the wrong direction.
The IRS has an explicit bias of collecting the most tax they can from you not the least. You have an interest in a different direction. The codes are set up so that there are multiple correct answers, the IRS would pick the most desirable to maximize tax revenue whereas you pick the least desirable.
There are also some things they never know, like whethe
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The IRS has an explicit bias of collecting the most tax they can from you not the least.
No. The only bias they have is collecting what you owe, not more, not less. You may not like the amount you owe, that doesn't mean you don't owe it.
Re:It should be mentioned (Score:4, Informative)
This is false. I repeat, THERE ARE MULTIPLE CORRECT ANSWERS when filing your taxes, there are options. There is not a fixed correct amount you owe. Tax software is designed to try to find what you the filer consider the correct answer, the selection of legal and valid choices which results in the lowest tax burden. The IRS selects the schedules and tables which results in the highest tax burden.
The IRS by default won't give you valid deductions and credits you qualify for, where there is more than one accounting method that can applied they choose the one giving the highest tax due. If there is an unknown value the default IRS assessment defaults to the worst case from you. Fail to specify HSA deductions, the IRS doesn't go by past history, nope they assume NONE of your HSA expenditures were qualified. In all cases the benefit goes against you if left to the IRS and the burden is on you to prove otherwise. They wouldn't even choose the best of your options in terms of filing status.
Don't even get me started on their collection processes, the way they force people to incur additional tax debt by force liquidings tax deferred accounts, tell people their expenses don't count on assessments for payment plans, fail to tell people when they qualify to have tax debt discharged due to inability to pay or the debt having run statute.
Here is something fun for you. Do your taxes by hand, then use two or three of these free filing options. All three are trying to give you the maximum refund you qualify for (which is the only sane definition of having correctly assessed what you owe). They will all give different answers and all followed the rules.
Re:It should be mentioned (Score:4, Interesting)
Now, IF YOU SCREW UP and can't do basic math, or can't find a calculator, spreadsheet or anything that can do basic math, your mileage may vary.
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Re: It should be mentioned (Score:5, Informative)
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I'd say making up statistics out of thin air makes me disregard anything you you say.
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Your statistics aside what kind of a world do you live in where you need to go online to get a 3rd party to provide you a form when all the information could just be entered directly in the IRS website, and much of it pre-filled? ... Like in every other country.
Re: It should be mentioned (Score:4, Informative)
This is true, and the fuckers won't allow the IRS to provide their own tax software at all, AND they won't allow the IRS to allow YOU to send your data directly from your PC to their servers, they nixed that a few years ago which is why you have to use their bullshit software to transmit the stuff to THEM then they send it to the IRS.
And, don't get me started on the State scam. After I shell out $30-40 for their stupid deliberately limited software, they have the temerity to want to charge me ANOTHER $20.00 for them to transmit it to my state! FUCK THEM!! I always get the version that includes basic Fed + State, then file the State on paper.
I also get H+R Block (formerly TaxCut) they seem just a LITTLE less scammy than TurboTax, but not by much. They are all in on it together.
Re: It should be mentioned (Score:5, Informative)
The US is weird. In Canada there's plenty of free tax software that doesn't try to upsell you. I personally like StudioTax. And all the packages do all the provinces. The CRA even released a feature called "Auto-fill". Log into your CRA account with the tax software, and it will fill in all the data from all the forms they have on file. Of course it won't claim all your deductions for you, but it's a good start at what you need.
Then there's countries with drastically simpler tax systems.
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I second the system in Canada. I use SimpleTax on my iPad to do my personal taxes and even submit them with it. I think they also have a website version. After you submit your tax form they ask you for a donation. It also supports retrieving any tax data for the year that the CRA has. It's a very well well designed app.
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Tax software?
In Norway, the tax rules are complicated enough. but you don't need to report anything the government already know. Banks report all bank accounts, employers report all wages - and so on. If you own a house, you already registered that fact with the government - so the taxman knows if there are any property taxes.
So lots of people don't need to report anything. The goverment already has what they need to tax them. Still, you may have to report stuff like money earned in foreign countries (if yo
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Re: It should be mentioned (Score:2)
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Re: It should be mentioned (Score:2)
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So you completed your 2018 taxes that were just due a week ago and that took you two hours and now you're looking for 2019 forms? That's the antithesis of procrastination.
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Except that W2s and 1099s are often incorrect or incomplete (if you're an independent contractor, not all payments end up with a 1099, plus a 1099 is on gross income, not net after expenses).
And worse, W2s and 1099s can be redundant. For example, when you exercise stock options from your employer, the income will likely be included in both the dollar amount on your W2 and on forms from your brokerage, potentially resulting in double taxation for the same income.
Re:It should be mentioned (Score:5, Interesting)
Brazil here.
We're going to send our annual IRS report in a few days. The due date is April, 30, and it's been ready for some time.
When I say "send", I mean it. It travels to the 'net in about 1s (one second, maybe more if not on broadband).
I used a program provided by the government. It is Java-based and runs nicely on Linux. There's a native Linux version, too, but it requires Oracle's Java and I'm saving myself the hassle and just using OpenJDK (for the second year).
Years ago we had to collect all info by ourselves. Now it's possible to get a "pre-filled" report with all the data the IRS has (Brazil's IRS, I mean, not USA's IRS). That won't exempt one from responsibly declaring information unbeknownst to the Treasury which, if ommitted, may lead to prosecution for tax evasion.
But life is much simpler now: most earnings and payments come already correctly -- names, companies, values etc.
I read folks are prevented from having that high-quality service because that would prevent certain companies from making profit; I'd say this is BS and that probably Capitalism needs to be fixed.
Re:It should be mentioned (Score:5, Insightful)
That doesn't change the fact that almost every taxpayer, by the numbers, has a single job that provides a W2 and applies the standard deduction. The fact that some people have more complicated taxes shouldn't mean that everyone else can't use the easy option.
For that matter, our taxes were more complex (business owner, mortgage, etc) but other than charitable donations there wasn't a single piece of information that we used that the IRS didn't already have.
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The reality is today even if you work a couple jobs or something after the TCJA most peoples filing situation is such that they could file a 1040-EZ. Now that the standard deduction is so large most people are not going to have charitable donations as a deduction any more. You'd either have to have a very large number of other deductions (not credits) or be giving quite a lot more than most wage earns can afford to (Or maybe you have come up with a scheme like banking donations for several years and then
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Regardless of who you chose to believe the one thing that just about every agrees on is that the US tax code is fantastically complicated.
There's a government department who know this tax code very well and have systems in place where they verify the information you submit to them against the information those related to you submit to them. Based on this why do you need to submit the information at all?
The length of the tax code isn't relevant. (2500? That would put its count quite low compared to other western countries) The vast majority of it doesn't apply to the vast majority of Americans. The preference bits you describe are also well de
Re: It should be mentioned (Score:5, Interesting)
The irs wasn't allowed to do it though, because of the tax lobby.
That's an odd way to run a country. My tax return takes less than 5 minutes, done online for free, which is the way it ought to be.
My country completely reformed the tax system about 20 years ago however, to make it simpler and cheaper for everyone, which is also how things ought to happen.
Americans have let their country be taken over by corporate interests and inter-generational wealth so you are all just serfs now.
If you don't like it, buy your own senator.
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That's an odd way to run a country. My tax return takes less than 5 minutes, done online for free, which is the way it ought to be.
My country completely reformed the tax system about 20 years ago however, to make it simpler and cheaper for everyone, which is also how things ought to happen.
Americans have let their country be taken over by corporate interests and inter-generational wealth so you are all just serfs now.
If you don't like it, buy your own senator.
How right you are. I think it may be a function of the stupidity of large groups - the larger the country, the dumber the electorate as a whole, which would explain why smaller democracies tend to be saner than large ones. However smaller dictatorships tend to be less sane. Maybe humanity is just doomed no matter what.
Re: It should be mentioned (Score:5, Insightful)
The irs wasn't allowed to do it though, because of the tax lobby.
Stop blaming the lobbyists. The blame goes to congress, and indirectly to apathetic voters.
Here are the primary sponsors of the bill:
Rep. Richard Neal, D-Mass.
Reps. John Lewis, D-Ga
Mike Kelly, R-Pa.
If one of these slimebags is your representative, please vote against them in the next election, and convince your neighbors to do the same.
FALSE (Score:3)
The irs wasn't allowed to do it though, because of the tax lobby.
Stop blaming the lobbyists. The blame goes to congress, and indirectly to apathetic voters.
Here are the primary sponsors of the bill:
Rep. Richard Neal, D-Mass.
Reps. John Lewis, D-Ga
Mike Kelly, R-Pa.
If one of these slimebags is your representative, please vote against them in the next election, and convince your neighbors to do the same.
This is not a situation where there is a single source of blame. Blame all of those who are responsible. Our government allowed the lobbying system to take control, and the lobbyist gladly did so. To your point, we only have control over who we elect, but the lobbying organizations who run the government need to go (or at least severely neutered... I am sure some of them do some kind of good, right?)
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It's also extremely complex so that taxes can be used as a bargaining tool every election.
Re: It should be mentioned (Score:3, Insightful)
Then why do governments in many other countries not have the same issue with filling taxes?
The problem is a weakness in the US system which allows far too much money to be involved in politics.
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Well, for the electric car that was almost certainly sent by the manufacturer to confirm that you qualified. But let's put all of those aside. They certainly have all of your W2 information, 1099s, dependents, etc. - basically if someone sent you a tax form, they already have it. They could certainly get the property tax information for your house.
Most people do best with the standard deduction these days. For those who don't, simply entering in your explicit deductions (we have a similar set) would onl
Free File Fillable Forms (Score:5, Informative)
You don't need to play 250 questions with crapware like TurboTax. Just go to Free File Fillable Forms and fill in the tax forms yourself. Basically like the PDF forms except that they're filed online with basic math done for you, and it's free for all income levels (the IRS only recommends it above $66k/yr, but it's fine to use even below that income).
https://www.freefilefillablefo... [freefilefi...eforms.com]
Re:Free File Fillable Forms (Score:5, Informative)
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freetaxusa (Score:4, Informative)
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Yes, I've used that. They make you fill out all the state tax information before you can file the federal taxes, so I expect most people do pay. I just took my state information to the freefillableforms site and filed them there, but it was rejected with obscure error messages until I figured out what was wrong on one of the schedules after several tries. In the past, I've filed my state taxes with paper. I refuse to pay someone to file electronically.
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I use freefillableforms.com - of course, being old enough to have submitted on paper, back in the day, makes that pretty simple. It might be slightly harder for a young person with math anxiety.
Telefile (Score:2)
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Thank Goodness i Live in Canada (Score:2)
Australia has this problem fixed (Score:5, Informative)
The Australian Tax Office produced their own tax return software. The current version is just a website. Dead easy to file if you are just a normal worker and dont have any weird shit going on.
Re:Australia has this problem fixed (Score:5, Informative)
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Sounds great, but this is the USA and nothing gets done unless does one or more of the following:
1) Increase profits for a corporation
2) Increase the wealth of the 1%.
3) Disenfranchise anyone who wants to change the current system.
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It's as complex as you need it to be. Most of the time you login and click accept. Done. Taxes filed.
I on the other hand need to click "amend" because my tax situation "has weird shit going on".
A related problem (Score:4, Interesting)
Even when you purchase TurboTax, which allows you to e-file your federal taxes for free (after paying for the software), they charge you for e-filing your state taxes. Fine, whatever, so e-file your federal taxes and print and mail your state taxes, right? Except they've made it harder and harder to find the path through the software that allows you to print your state taxes for filing while e-filing the federal taxes. It's possible, and I've always managed to find it, but it seems to take more effort every year.
What about H&R Block At Home software? (Score:2)
I switched from TurboTax to Tax Cut (since renamed to H&R Block At Home -- I guess they want you to use H&R Block With A Their Tax Preparer at Their Office) during the "root kit" imbroglio over the TurboTax copy protection scheme.
I am OK with it, but it has "corner cases." One of them is that it wouldn't e-file my state because I owed too much money on the state return -- it just threw up its hands like an Airbus with a frozen pitot tube.
I e-filed the state (for free!) by entering the softwar
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I must differ on that. I've filed online with TurboTax every fiscal year from 2006-2018 (i.e., up to this month) and I've never paid a fee to file my state taxes. This is in NY state.
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Link to actual IRS agreement (Score:2)
Free File (Eighth) Memorandum of Understanding - 2018 [irs.gov]
Easy, do your own damn taxes (Score:2, Insightful)
You have to file a return (usually). You don't have to give all your private and financial info, SSN, etc, to a for-profit company that you otherwise have no connection to or any other reason to associate with. Download the PDF forms, read the manuals, fill them in, print them out, use this old thing called the postal service, and stop paying these parasites. Consider it a protest if you like - keep inundating the IRS with snail mail until they relent and let you submit the damn things electronically no
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It's worth the $65 to have them completed and submitted in 30 minutes.
That's about how long it takes me to prepare my 1040 along with my itemized deductions and 1040C-EZ, using the PDF files from irs.gov. It costs me the price of a stamp and an envelope. It's really not difficult, I'm sure most people on the site could do it just as easily. The first year might take you a little longer to learn the process but after that it is pretty painless.
Not surprised (Score:2)
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I've filed electronically with TurboTax from fiscal 2006-2018 (i.e., this month) and never paid an extra fee for the state filing.
Well, there's your problem (Score:2)
Our first stop was Google.
Yeah, maybe you should have gone to https://www.irs.gov/ [irs.gov] instead, and followed the link on the home page to "File your taxes for free."
Go to IRS.GOV for FreeFile (Score:5, Informative)
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As in most civilized places on earth, in Belgium this is also the case.
So I paid $40 or thereabouts... (Score:2)
Why free? (Score:2)
Why do tax software companies need to provide you a free option below a certain income level? Why did they get into this agreement with the IRS?
Mailing is almost free. (Score:2)
When I owe money .. I print it out and mail it so it takes as long as possible for the IRS to get it.
If one doesn't have a printer, one can usually get most forms for free, they used to have them at the post office but I think the IRS will mail them if asked. Then just copy the numbers.
Mailing is always available for the cost of a stamp.
Oh .. you want your refund faster?? How much is it worth to get it faster. I always buy the basic version so I have the current software on my computer at all times and ca
So, where do I get a refund? (Score:2)
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Tax software offers a convenience. Forgot to enter a charitable contribution - just go back and enter it and all the calculations are automatically re-done. Don't have the exact amount of a deduction? Put in an estimated amount, keep going, then go back later and fix it. Oh, and when doing it the next year, it will suck in lots of the basic info so you don't have to look it up and
Re:So then (Score:4, Insightful)
even better do it the german efficient way (Score:2)
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You're literally describing the Danish state tax website.
All fields are filled out in advance, and you are free to change them as often as you want.
Incredibly efficient system IMHO, and I can't comprehend why anyone would allow private firms into the process at all.
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I might guess that the Danish tax system is relatively simple in comparison to the very complex US system. Of course, the government is incented to maximize tax revenue. Private firms can compete by finding ways to legally minimize taxes paid. I can't comprehend why anyone would prevent private firms from participating in the process. The issue in the US is that the IRS (tax collectors) is not allowed to create tax software
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In the Netherlands it is free to file your taxes online, directly on our 'irs' website.
In fact you are required to file your taxes online (no more paper forms).
The online forms are also already filled in from all the sources that our 'irs' has access to, while still allowing you to submit corrections, and submitting extra information for special situations like owning a business.
Re: (Score:3)
Libraries. Coffee shops. Internet cafes.
Plenty of opportunities, many of them free, for people without internet subscriptions to use the internet in most first world countries these days.
The UK is similar to the Netherlands in this regard - most people won't ever need to file taxes in their lives, but if you ever do (run a business, have non-ordinary income such as rental or overseas etc etc) then its entirely free via the HMRC website, they will even do all the calculations for you if you just provide th
UK IRS is awesome (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Every UK employee gets that information on their pay slip and on purchase receipts.
In the UK we don't have such things as "deductibles" or other adjustments to our tax - its income tax and national insurance, which are both from your pay, and its sales tax, which is on your purchase receipt, and its local tax which the local council will bill you for directly with a full breakdown.
Your tax burden is extremely clear even though you never have any dealings with HMRC itself.
Re: (Score:2)
Why wouldn't they see their individual tax burden? That's such a strange argument.
Re: (Score:2)
He's just a frothing libertard, rocking backwards and forwards muttering about "gubmint".
Re: (Score:2)
Your obsession with edge cases has reached a level of ridiculous. Doing one's taxes via the web doesn't use a lot of data so going on about caps in this manner is silly.
This is not even taking into account that many cell plans in the US are unlimited data. Yeah, maybe YOU use a pay as you go plan with a feature phone, but that is NOT the norm.
Re: Just another example (Score:2)
This would work for a lot of people sure. But basically anyone without a corporate 9-5 would need to provide more info.
Tips, self employment income, business expenses, etc are all not reported to the irs by anyone but the filer.
Re: (Score:2)
Strawman argument. The IRS auto filing your taxes for you and sending you a refund or bill for you to either accept or change has nothing to do with that. Whether you initiate the filing or the IRS initiates the filing is not material to the problems you brought up. People still have the opportunity to lie about their taxes either way.
This is why problems cannot be solved, folks like you cannot even stop talking about crap that has nothing to do with he problem at hand and dragging the conversation off i
Re: (Score:2)
The IRS could do that for
Re: (Score:2)
This would work for a lot of people sure.
Even granting all of the other points, since it would work for a lot of people (I'd say the vast majority), and it would be cheap and easy, why not offer it to that lot of people at least? It'd be a good start.
Re: (Score:2)
Because the IRS isn't neutral. You'd think they'd just be mindless robots but no, they are more like the used car salesmen of tax collection doing what they can to inflate what you pay. The IRS always chooses a path that shows you owe more and never gives the benefit of the doubt. One year I actually used the tax prep and it didn't attach the second page of the schedule that indicates qualified vs unqualified expenditures from my HSA because the unqualified were zero. The IRS came back claiming I owed tax b
Re: (Score:3)
That's fixable - the Danish tax authorities are interested in minimizing objections to their pre-calculated taxes, as it reduces costs.
It shouldn't be impossible to incentivize the IRS and their employees to do the same.
Your relationship to the tax authorities shouldn't be adversarial...
Re: (Score:2)
Seriously. This is ridiculous. In the first example (3rd graphic) that they came up with there are 3 choices. Pick the first one: "Keep free."
My daughter wanted to file for the first time and get her taxes back. Done in about 20 minutes. Federal refund: $2. State refund: $7. Paid $0.
Re:'Dark Patterns'? (Score:5, Informative)
An example of a dark pattern in software might be a dialog box like:
Windows is ready to upgrade your system to Windows 10.
[ Reboot immediately ]
[ Install the next time the computer is rebooted ]
With tiny, disclaimer-like text at the very bottom... in a non-contrasting color and no visible evidence that it's even clickable... that says something like "learn more", which then proceeds to bury the clickable link to cancel the action amidst an ocean of other text and -- like before -- goes out of its way to make it non visually-obvious that it's even clickable.
Dark patterns are also why I walked away from web application development in disgust a couple of years ago, and abhor "reactive" design that allows (nee, encourages) things like delaying the rendering of buttons that click through to advertisements until a fraction of a second before the user is predicted to tap the screen, in the hope that he'll occasionally click the unintended advertiser link instead.
I wish to god some mobile browser for Android had an option to trap any screen-tap that occurs within ~250ms of the screen reflowing or recomposing if the reflowing/recomposing had the effect of changing the outcome of a tap to that area. Or maybe an option that allowed you to touch an otherwise-"dead" zone on the screen with your thumb to temporarily prevent recomposition as long as your thumb remains in place. Turning taps into a two-finger gesture would be annoying, but IMHO less annoying than turning every goddam web page into whack-a-mole where you're forced to play "chase the moving link" to avoid triggering some undesired operation.