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Verizon Canada Communications The Almighty Buck

Verizon Demands $880 From Rural Library For Just 0.44GB of Roaming Data (arstechnica.com) 66

Posted by BeauHD from the cough-it-up dept.
Verizon is refusing to waive or reduce $880 of charges accidentally ran up from someone who borrowed a mobile hotspot from a small library. "The library has an 'unlimited' data plan for the hotspots, but Verizon says it has to pay the $880 to cover less than half a gigabyte of data usage that happened across the border with Canada," reports Ars Technica. From the report: Tully Free Library in Tully, New York, a town of fewer than 3,000 people, lends out three Verizon hotspots to a rural population that has limited Internet access. The library started the hotspot-lending program with a grant from the Central New York Library Resources Council, which paid the bill for two years. Crucially, the service plan with Verizon blocked international roaming so that library borrowers wouldn't rack up unintentional charges if they happened to cross the Canadian border. But when the grant ran out, Tully Free Library had to get a new contract and service plan, and the organization began paying the bill itself. The new plan seemed to be identical to the old one, but it enabled international roaming. "They never said to us, 'Do you want international roaming blocked?'" Tully Free Library Director Annabeth Hayes told Ars. "That wasn't something that occurred to me because it was blocked before." The person who borrowed the hotspot used it while driving through Canada for a few hours to take his brother to the airport. "He was only over the border for about four hours and he said he wasn't even using the hotspot," Hayes said. "It was just on in the car and apparently it was pinging a tower so that tower was incurring all these fees."

The bill from Verizon included an $880.30 charge for about 440MB of international data. "I ended up contacting their executive communications department, and the person there said she had to contact their legal team because our contract was under the government/educational department," Hayes said. "She contacted the legal team and they went back and forth and finally decided that no, we couldn't have our fee waived."
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Verizon Demands $880 From Rural Library For Just 0.44GB of Roaming Data More

Verizon Demands $880 From Rural Library For Just 0.44GB of Roaming Data

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  • So don't pay it. What are they doing to do? Arrest the librarian?

    • They could cut off service until it is paid. Library then goes with an alternative provider or without the service.

      They could sue in small claims. However, in a small claims court the judge could like the library more than verizon.

      They could sue in regular court. Court fees would be more than the judgement though. In addition, unless they can dig up some documentation that the library authorized the modification to the contract, that would be tossed out and they'd be out of even more money.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by rtb61 ( 674572 )

        Easy fire the individual who signed the contract and then exclude doing business as much as possible with Verizon for say a decade and let them know. So like make $880 or lose hundreds of thousands for future contracts and let that entire community know so they too can penalise Verizon in every way possible.

  • However well intentioned, it was foolish. If you can't manage a prepaid plan and a tracphone you're too far gone to need one.

    • The problem was that the hotspot or account was configured to allow international data roaming.

      • >"The problem was that the hotspot or account was configured to allow international data roaming."

        Correct. And THAT problem was probably because the Library didn't ask for it to be blocked. Of course, I doubt Verizon clearly ASKED them if they wanted international data... something like that should be opt in. Of course, we don't know, maybe it was opt in. We don't know.

        Oh and in the summary:

        "He was only over the border for about four hours and he said he wasn't even using the hotspot," Hayes said. "I

        • Correct. And THAT problem was probably because the Library didn't ask for it to be blocked

          It was blocked in the original contract with the State who started the program. When the State program ended in New York, it was up to the libraries to form their own contact. This particular library wanted to just keep the same contract that they had when they were part of the State program. Verizon didn't 1:1 copy the contract and enabled roaming and placed in data caps.

          I mean it is what it is, but the library had asked for 1:1 contract renewal and if Verizon could provide that, I feel they should have

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

          "He was only over the border for about four hours and he said he wasn't even using the hotspot," Hayes said. "It was just on in the car and apparently it was pinging a tower so that tower was incurring all these fees."

          Pinging the tower for 4 hours doesn't use 440MB of data. Not even 4MB of data.

          No, but your phone sees a WiFi connection and assumes it's free to use all the data it can over its own cellular connection. What likely happened is the guy roamed into Canada and his apps didn't turn off, thinking t

  • merge. T-Mobile were the ones that started giving out fast unlimited data plans for a decent price (Cricket was dog slow) and without constantly trying to screw you out of a plan you managed to get grandfathered into (good luck keeping one of those unlimited Android plans from launch day). They didn't do that out of the goodness in their hearts, they were on the way out the door and needed something to break out and take market share with.

    With one less carrier market share becomes less of a concern. Eve

    • Yeah, keeping that plan is a pain. I have Sprint, and I have to call them up, on average, once a quarter to undo some unauthorized change to my plan. I've had them split my family plan into separate plans (each equally as expensive as the actual one I agreed to), drop services without notice, add services without notice, and just generally be complete asshats.

      If only the alternatives weren't worse.

  • to pay the bill.

    Then contact the FCC to get approved for broadband funds to build out Internet support for their area.

    In the interim, they could find a hotspot vendor that won't screw them over, and ditch Verizon. Maybe a prepaid service...

    They could also change their lending process so that customers borrowing the hotspot are responsible for any "additional charges"

    • get approved for broadband funds to build out Internet support for their area.

      And get sued by Verizon.

    • to pay the bill.

      A library close to the Canadian border loaned a hotspot to someone without having a roaming block on the account. Failing to pay the bill should result in suspension of the account, which harms everyone else who didn't incur the charges. If they can find an angel who pays it for them, fine, but this isn't the kind of thing that charity is supposed to be used for.

      In the interim, they could find a hotspot vendor that won't screw them over,

      If you contract for a service and then use the service, it's not the vendor that is screwing you. I'd say that the "patron" who claims they weren'

      • A library close to the Canadian border...

        I knew I should have looked them up before saying that. Here [google.com] is a map to the place. Tully is in the middle of the state, well away from the Canadian border, and surrounded by cities with reasonable sized airports. To get to Canada this fellow who was just "driving his friend to the airport" had to drive through Syracuse or Rochester or Buffalo.

        The "patron's" story, who didn't use the hotspot at all, is fishier and fishier by the moment. Is there any reason Verizon shouldn't dismiss it as a lie?

        • Interesting to note that the library patron is smart enough to understand the hotspot was pinging towers and using up data (which it wouldn't do - locating towers doesn't incur customer data charges) but is too ignorant to turn off the hotspot after driving 3-4 hours to the Canadian border.

          The argument that the hotspot consumed 100MB of data per hour by virtue of merely beng turned on is absurd. That would mean the hotspot uses 2.4GB per day, or 72GB if left on all month?

        • To get to Canada this fellow who was just "driving his friend to the airport" had to drive through Syracuse or Rochester or Buffalo.

          I lived in Syracuse for ~7 years and I can tell you that their story is actually quite plausible (Tully NY is about 20 miles south of Syracuse). Yes, there are airports in Syracuse, Albany, Rochester, and Buffalo. All of them are even designated as "international" airports. However I can tell you from experience that the Syracuse airport is of such low importance to the airlines that it is often worth going somewhere else to fly.

          Case in point I once wanted to fly from Syracuse to Vancouver BC. If I were to start my journey by plane from Syracuse, the shortest option was Syracuse to Chicago, to Seattle, to Vancouver BC. The journey would take about 14 hours and cost around $800 for the round trip. Then a friend of mine reminded me I could instead fly WestJet (think Jet Blue, but Canadian) if I started in Ottawa. Ottawa was a drive of less than 4 hours. I could fly nonstop Ottawa to Vancouver for under $400 on the round trip, getting there in less than half the time. As a bonus I didn't have to go through airport customs either as the flight was domestic and I crossed the international border in my car.

          I was certainly not the only person who did this. My example happens to be a completely legal trip, but I knew of people who crossed the border to then fly to Cuba by way of Canadian airports as well (far less hassle than starting at an American airport, if you know how to handle your papers correctly).

          Also, flights into and out of upstate NY airports are amongst the first canceled due to east coast weather - even if the weather isn't going to hit there. No airline calls any of the upstate NY airports hubs so they cancel the flights there really quickly when the board starts backing up, regardless of the fact that Syracuse airport has both one of the best ILS'es anywhere, and one of the largest snow plow blades in the country.

          So yes, it is absolutely plausible that someone from Tully could have passed through Canada en route to an airport. Ottawa and Toronto are great airports. Syracuse and Rochester are after thoughts in most cases.

          • Furthermore, you donâ(TM)t have to travel to Canada to connect to Canada cell towers. We have Verizon, and when vacationing in Michigan along the shore of Lake Huron, our phones constantly connect to Canada, across the lake.

            • Furthermore, you donÃ(TM)t have to travel to Canada to connect to Canada cell towers.

              Furthermore, you have to get close enough to the border to connect preferentially to a Canadian tower. In case you missed it, there's a huge lake in the way stopping you from getting close enough until to get to Watertown or Buffalo. Both are a lot further away than the closer airports.

              What's trademarked about your donats?

              • Re: (Score:1)

                by cwesley ( 920116 )
                No, I didn't miss the lake. As I said, when I vacation along the shore of Lake Huron, in Michigan, my Verizon phone constantly connects to towers in Canada, *across the lake*.

          • I lived in Syracuse for ~7 years and I can tell you that their story is actually quite plausible

            So did I, and I flew out of Syracuse Airport for many years. I've also been to Buffalo airport, and Rochester, and Albany, and south to Ithaca and ... Tully is surrounded by airports with regular service. There is no need to drive to Canada to go to an airport.

            If you're seeking huge airport service and don't care how much effort it takes to get there, drive 6 hours east and use Logan.

            • I flew out of Syracuse Airport for many years. I've also been to Buffalo airport, and Rochester, and Albany, and south to Ithaca and ... Tully is surrounded by airports with regular service

              Out of Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, and Albany, I would say the only one that should be considered to have "regular service" is Rochester, and that's stretching the definition of "regular" by a bit. The rest are just feeder airports that seldom see service to and from more than 6 destinations in any typical 24 hour period. Sure, if you don't mine making connections and flying on planes that will dependably be bounced to dead last priority in any airport queue, they're not bad airports. If you actually

      • You have reading comprehension issues. They already had the hotspots and roaming was blocked. They then told verizon they want the same thing they have always had, but now are paying directly. Verizon then changed the terms against the libraries wishes without telling them and is too stupid to figure out that their attempt to steal $800 from a small town library is going to cost them far, far, far more than the $800 dollars they attempted to steal and will never get.

  • No one questions the price? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MacAndrew ( 463832 ) on Friday August 09, 2019 @08:48PM (#59072604) Homepage

    I'm surprised no one immediately questions a price of $880 for 440 MB - is Canada really that expensive, or is this a gotcha? - or the incredible unlikelihood that the customer would want to run up such disproportionate charges. Verizon knows what they are doing and that they profit enormously from confusion among consumers. My first argument would be the renter was entitled to think that renewal of the agreement meant renewal of the same agreement -- but even if not that the charges would be kept in the realm of sanity. There's some serious gouging going on here.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Livius ( 318358 )

      or is this a gotcha?

      It's a gotcha.

      There's some serious gouging going on here.

      Correct.

    • I'm surprised no one immediately questions a price of $880 for 440 MB

      Why? That's 2$/Mb. If you aren't a Simple Choice plan user, T-Mobile will charge you $15/Mb for roaming data in Germany.

      The goal is to get you to sign up for the cheap plan. There is little reason not to -- it saves money in the long run.

      My first argument would be the renter was entitled to think that renewal of the agreement meant renewal of the same agreement -

      They didn't renew the agreement. It was a new agreement. Caveat emptor. If price and services is important to you, you don't assume that your new phone plan is the same as the old one, otherwise it would BE the old one. When I updated to Simple Choice with T, I asked abo

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by xlsior ( 524145 )
      It's not Canada that's the problem, it's the ridiculous upcharges from the US carriers when you are outside of the country, no matter what the prevailing local charges might be. The only reason: "because they can".

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by c-A-d ( 77980 )

      Canada is really that expensive.

    • is Canada really that expensive, or is this a gotcha?

      It is the USA which is expensive when you leave the USA. These are international roaming charges.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by nnull ( 1148259 )

      Our phone plans in North America are ridiculously expensive in the first place. I can fly anywhere else in the world and get a prepaid phone plan for less than $10-$15 for one phone, with a massive data plan. Meanwhile in the US, $60 minimum per a phone and the phone companies are making money hand over fist, while our service has been degrading. Even Dubai, of all places was $10. Singapore, $10. China, $10. I think by far the cheapest service I ever paid for a phone was in Poland, $2 for over 10GB with exc

  • Misplaced priorities (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Livius ( 318358 ) on Friday August 09, 2019 @08:58PM (#59072618)

    Verizon made a very poor choice. The smart thing would have been to waive the fee, loudly and public, as a conciliatory gesture to a non-profit serving the public which had an honest misunderstanding, all the while matter of factly pointing out that they were technically entitled to the money but were the victims of the situation as much as the library.

    I understand it completely goes against their nature to do anything charitable, but for the very low price of $880.30 they would have an incredible public relations win which ordinarily no amount of money could buy.

    • Re:Misplaced priorities (Score:5, Funny)

      by jfdavis668 ( 1414919 ) on Friday August 09, 2019 @10:48PM (#59072824)
      Or, you could just blame Canada...

      • This has absolutely nothing to do with "Canada" and everything to do with Verizon gouging everyone who does any international data roaming, without some kind of "plan".

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Zebai ( 979227 )

          We don't know if the gouging is on verizons' side. This tower may not belong to them and the owner of the tower might be charging verizon quite a bit for the roaming data. I remember someone telling me once people living on the border in some cities have to be careful with the phones as it was easy to pick up a tower from over the border some towers placed very very close on purpose to pick up this traffic and then gouge on them. I think they were talking about Niagara but i'm not certain.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Reemi ( 142518 )

            Things might have changed over time, but the GSM specification was such that your provider provides PLMN's (other mobile network id's) that you are allowed to roam on.

            Providers are required to make roaming agreements and open access to their infrastructure to external providers. For example, your provider needs to provide security keys to the roaming provider. Location information needs to be exchanged, otherwise you will not be able to receive incoming calls.

            In any case, your supplier is in the driving sea

          • We don't know if the gouging is on verizons' side.

            Yes we do. International roaming is not based on tower ownership and 100% based on contracts between carriers, or better still often the same carrier.
            You can see the effect of "gouging" in the EU. EU rules came in to abolish roaming fees, and nothing changed. Contracts didn't change, prices didn't rise, just the concept of roaming fees were abolished in EU countries.

            This is quite funny when you end up in a Micro-nation which is not strictly part of the EU. Taking a train from France to Italy while on the ph

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

            We don't know if the gouging is on verizons' side. This tower may not belong to them and the owner of the tower might be charging verizon quite a bit for the roaming data. I remember someone telling me once people living on the border in some cities have to be careful with the phones as it was easy to pick up a tower from over the border some towers placed very very close on purpose to pick up this traffic and then gouge on them. I think they were talking about Niagara but i'm not certain.

            Roaming prices are

        • You people need to watch the South Park movie.
      • Canada apologies

    • Verizon made a very poor choice. The smart thing would have been to waive the fee, loudly and public, as a conciliatory gesture to a non-profit serving the public which had an honest misunderstanding, all the while matter of factly pointing out that they were technically entitled to the money but were the victims of the situation as much as the library.

      I understand it completely goes against their nature to do anything charitable, but for the very low price of $880.30 they would have an incredible public relations win which ordinarily no amount of money could buy.

      They were speaking to legal, where I guess the discussion went something like "Sure we can waive it, it's peanuts but if we waive one we may have to waive more so let's just say no." " "Sounds good, ready for lunch?" "Sure, your expense account or mine?"

    • The smart thing would have been to waive the fee, loudly and public, as a conciliatory gesture to a non-profit serving the public which had an honest misunderstanding, all the while matter of factly pointing out that they were technically entitled to the money but were the victims of the situation as much as the library.

      Why? Doctor evil didn't stop to help grandma across the road. At this point Verizon's mission statement is pretty much "Customers? hahahah FUCK EM!"

  • My son's phone has been on my plan for years, his brother is jealous that I pay. I figure if I split the phones and he paid for his, me for mine, we'd get screwed someway. We have Motorola Droid Razer phones and I love mine. It does all I need.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Bullshit, they were streaming media, it's the only way
  • I went to Vancouver for the weekend and rang AT&T to get a roaming pack. I asked the associate on the phone top make sure they put it in the notes of my account. When I was in Canada I made sure to only turn my network on if I needed Google maps or to Google a place. My next bill included a $400 charge for 150 mb of roaming data. When I rang I was told no roaming pack was added to my account but luckily my notes did say that I had rung and asked for a roaming pack to be added so they waved the charges.

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