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Earth United States

2.35 Million Lose Power In California As State Faces Extreme Weather and Wildfires (mercurynews.com) 269

California's largest power utility began power shut-offs today for an estimated 2.35 million people -- expected to last two days -- after weather forecasts predicted extreme fire danger due to exceptionally dry weather and severe winds, according to the Washington Post. "Some gusts this weekend might reach 75 mph (120 kph) or higher as part of a 'historic' wind event, the National Weather Service said. The winds could lead to 'erratic fire behavior,' warned the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection..."

The San Jose Mercury News reports: PG&E won't restore power until inspections of de-energized lines are completed and any damage to the system is repaired. The utility also has requested mutual aid from 1,000 workers from other energy companies, including ATCO Energy in Alberta, Canada; Xcel Energy in Minnesota; and Florida Power & Light. Those crews are expected to be staged and in place to do repairs by Sunday, according to the company.
50,000 people living near Northern California's wine country were also ordered to evacuate, as firefighters struggled to contain an already-burning 25,955-acre wildfire nearby which is only 10% contained. And 40,000 people were ordered to evacuate homes in Southern California near Santa Clarita, where the 4,600-acre Tick Fire is now 25% contained.
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2.35 Million Lose Power In California As State Faces Extreme Weather and Wildfires

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  • Power lines? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jlar ( 584848 ) on Sunday October 27, 2019 @12:53AM (#59351516)

    What about burying the power lines in the fire prone areas? It is of course more expensive but so is the burning of thousands of homes.

    In my country all power cables are buried except for some of the very largest high voltage cables.

    • Re:Power lines? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by ravenshrike ( 808508 ) on Sunday October 27, 2019 @01:07AM (#59351522)

      The 20th century was an extremely wet period for California. All their infrastructure was built with that level of moisture in mind. Combine that with the virtual moratorium that Cali put on new power plant construction between about 1980 and 2010 and the sources of power need very long lines to get to the last mile for the increasing population in the last 15 years through dense forest. PG&E's rates are controlled by Cali so they literally did not have the funds to run that much underground wire through wilderness especially given all the lawsuits from environmentalists and the dirt mafia(Yes, California has a dirt mafia) that would have popped up had they tried.

      • Re:Power lines? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Sunday October 27, 2019 @03:48AM (#59351740) Homepage Journal

        PG&E's rates are controlled by Cali so they literally did not have the funds to run that much underground wire

        They made a profit of over $5 billion in 2018, and you are saying they didn't have the finds to bury some cables?

        Wikipedia suggests a figure of around $40/foot for underground cables, which works out at about $21 million per 100 miles. Seems pretty affordable. How much cable are we talking about?

        • Re:Power lines? (Score:5, Informative)

          by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Sunday October 27, 2019 @04:21AM (#59351804)

          Wikipedia suggests a figure of around $40/foot for underground cables

          In California? $40/ft won't even cover the legal fees and impact reports.

          Seems pretty affordable. How much cable are we talking about?

          California is big. On I-5, it is 1380 miles (2200 km) from the Oregon border to Mexico.

          That is the distance from NYC to New Orleans. Or Paris to Minsk.

          • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

            Even if the cost was an order of magnitude more, $210 million per 100 miles, and they needed to cover 1000 miles, that would still be less than half their profit for 2018. Over a few years they could probably do all the at-risk areas.

            • Re:Power lines? (Score:5, Informative)

              by guruevi ( 827432 ) on Sunday October 27, 2019 @08:21AM (#59352206)

              Burying cable is expensive in California, about $3M/mile according to PG&E and maintenance is at least 3x as expensive.

              They would need to bury 134000 miles of cable or spend several trillions. Moreover California is a seismic activity zone, the ground is continuously shifting.

              From a purely environmental perspective, nobody should live in California if you want to save earth. The conflict between humans and nature in California is the highest in the USA and in the top 10 for the world. It only became popular during the gold rush and since then people have been cutting hardwood rainforests while buildings can't even last an average of 30 years.

              If you care for the environment, move out of California.

            • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
              Re "Over a few years they could probably do all the at-risk areas."
              Not without political approval in "green" CA...
        • Why would you bury cables in a state famous for the earth moving?

          Also, to bury the power lines in California would require burying an estimated 400,000 to 500,000 MILES of power lines. Possibly more.

          • Why would you bury cables in a state famous for the earth moving?

            Also, to bury the power lines in California would require burying an estimated 400,000 to 500,000 MILES of power lines. Possibly more.

            Because it fits in with the present day need for really simple one sentence answers to problems. Ideas that also happen to be impractical and won't work anyhow.

            Interestingly, in my Village, about half has buried utilities, and our portion has overhead. It makes zero difference. Lightning strikes occur in both halves in a similar rate, Lightning hits do happen to the buried utilities.

            Your comment regarding the earth's movement is also spot on. You can see the fault lines at the surface in many places.

            N

          • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

            Why would you bury cables in a state famous for the earth moving?

            Have you ever lived in an earthquake zone? The probability that a buried structure will cross an unknown fault that becomes active is vanishingly small, and if it crosses a known fault, you can design for it. San Francisco has a subway line that crosses a tectonic plate boundary underwater. And if a buried power line did cross a fault that moved, the line would simply snap and cut off power in the area, which is exactly what is happening by design right now.

            There is no engineering reason why last-mile powe

        • I think you are grossly underestimating the cost of undergrounding.

          Here's an article that gets a little closer:

          https://www.sfchronicle.com/ba... [sfchronicle.com]

          In a nutshell, undergrounding that level of power is way too expensive and wholly impractical over vast distances.

          Here's a nice primer:
          https://www.google.com/url?cli... [google.com]
        • Wikipedia suggests a figure of around $40/foot for underground cables

          That's a new build cost estimate. Retrospectively putting cables underground is ... and this is the technical term ... "fucking expensive". The $5bn won't get you far.

        • Re:Power lines? (Score:5, Informative)

          by aaarrrgggh ( 9205 ) on Sunday October 27, 2019 @07:37AM (#59352086)

          It is much closer to $1million/mile for a distribution circuit, $5 million for sub-transmission, and $10-20 million for transmission. Outside of cities and undersea cables, almost all transmission line cables in the world are aerial.

          PG&E, and to a lesser extent So Cal Edison, biggest issue is that most of the transmission lines are not rated for high wind conditions. Some of that is age de-rating, and some of it is that the lines were never designed for this kind of wind.

          Ultimately, unless you protect everything, that one little thing that hasn’t been fixed yet can still end up starting a fire, and you are back to square one.

          • by gweihir ( 88907 )

            I wonder how this is done in Europe then, where almost everything is buried. They must have some secret the US cannot figure out.

            • Yes, it is called snow. Ok, beyond that it is that when things were re-built underground utilities were preferred. There are trade offs— repairability and expandability are the biggest ones. If a city is not changing quickly then the trade offs work in favor of underground. When you build a new town, it costs a little more, but if you value that then it is fine.

              For California, the wildfire issue is what has changed. While they have always happened, the drought that ended in 2016(?) is a big part of t

            • by guruevi ( 827432 )

              Massive urban sprawl. You also never visited rural Europe (Eastern Europe).

              • by gweihir ( 88907 )

                You also never visited rural Europe (Eastern Europe).

                Wrong. Makes you a liar, incidentally. Nice.

                Sure, there are areas in Europe where little is buried, but somehow they still to not have problems with fire.

        • by rtb61 ( 674572 )

          That's called cost, it is anti-profit, what are you calling profit evil. This is the kind of logic that drives cutting back on maintenance to the point of collapse. Bonuses this quarter, somebody else's problem next quarter. Until you start to send the workers and the managers to prison for the corporations criminal negligence you will see no change in behaviour. Get used to it, it will get worse.

          So because they did not keep brush clear of power lines they had to shut down power, why did they not keep brus

        • by gweihir ( 88907 )

          They made a profit of over $5 billion in 2018, and you are saying they didn't have the finds to bury some cables?

          Need to get rich, it is the American Way! No money to spend on unimportant issues like infrastructure...

        • PG&E's rates are controlled by Cali so they literally did not have the funds to run that much underground wire

          They made a profit of over $5 billion in 2018, and you are saying they didn't have the finds to bury some cables?

          Wikipedia suggests a figure of around $40/foot for underground cables, which works out at about $21 million per 100 miles. Seems pretty affordable. How much cable are we talking about?

          California is a really big state. And burying cables isn't all that great of a solution. The typical cause of a line coming down is a lightning strike, and I have evidence in my office that underground wire can be hit (looks pretty cool, like an eagle claw)

          Burying the highest tension wires isn't an economical proposition for any state or country outside of very short runs. Cali also has a lot of mountains and canyons.

          There are efforts being made to produce devices that will sense a disconnect and shut o

        • Wikipedia suggests a figure of around $40/foot for underground cables, which works out at about $21 million per 100 miles. Seems pretty affordable. How much cable are we talking about?

          In the Peoples' Republic of California, you have to add another $100 per foot for permits.

        • Re:Power lines? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by DRJlaw ( 946416 ) on Sunday October 27, 2019 @09:25AM (#59352394)

          They made a profit of over $5 billion in 2018, and you are saying they didn't have the finds to bury some cables?

          Wikipedia suggests a figure of around $40/foot for underground cables, which works out at about $21 million per 100 miles. Seems pretty affordable. How much cable are we talking about?

          Fictional numbers. PG&E had a gross revenue of $2.3 billion [marketwatch.com] in 2018, which after $12 billion in "unusual expenses" (fire damage liability) leaves a very large and negative number. Prior years' average net income was about $1.5 billion.

          Citing Wikipedia numbers for burying low voltage distribution lines is equally wrong. Burying transmission lines costs about $3 million per mile [desertsun.com]. Path 15 [wikipedia.org] alone includes 3 500 kV lines and 4 230kV lines. Burying those lines alone would cost more than PG&E's average annual income.

          This has all been exhaustively reported [desertsun.com] in Californian press outlets. As I explained to you earlier, California sets the profits of utilities like PG&E by regulatory proceedings under the law [ca.gov], and also regulates rates and capital projects. You cannot simply raid PG&E's profits using unrealistic cost projections to bury California's power lines.

          Do you want to personally pay $15000 to bury California's power lines? Californians in general do not.

        • You're on drugs. PG&E LOST $6.4 billion last year [marketwatch.com], and in 2017 they made $1.7 billion on $17 billion in revenue. You are completely ignorant of the facts, and don't even go to check them. Seriously, you're completely ignorant here - provably so. And it's a shame you were rated so high with outright false statements.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        I think this has more to do with the fact that in the U.S. everything is done as cheaply as possible to maximize profits.
        Regulations that would force corporations to actually do things in a durable, reliable and sustainable way are perceived as socialist evils.

      • Okay then. Too expensive and problematic to put the cables underground, not reliable when putting the cables on the ground... let's put the damn cables in space.

        Problem solved, once and for all.

      • by gweihir ( 88907 )

        So basically, this is lack of strategic planning and not consulting climate experts, i.e. gross incompetence? Figures.

    • What about burying the power lines in the fire prone areas? It is of course more expensive but so is the burning of thousands of homes.

      This is a problem that is a recent development, when the lines were put in the area was not nearly as dry and windy, last few years weren't as dry and it's likely next year won't be either. This is not only recent but seasonal, it's going to get cold and wet soon and so these power outages will no longer be necessary.

      In my country all power cables are buried except for some of the very largest high voltage cables.

      That's funny, it's the same way here in the USA too.

      Let me tell you something, if you think you have this all figured out then go write the California public utility commission, PG&E, and

      • Let me tell you something, if you think you have this all figured out then go write the California public utility commission, PG&E, and the governor on your solution. I'm sure that they will find it very interesting and act on it immediately.

        Yes, please do. If enough people from outside the country write in continuously, maybe the state politicians will start realizing the level of global embarrassment their state infrastructure is becoming, and get some good press coverage out of redirecting funds towards fixing those things.

        • Re:Power lines? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Rockoon ( 1252108 ) on Sunday October 27, 2019 @06:11AM (#59351934)
          Why would the politicians of California care about press coverage when the press in California blows smoke up every Californians ass to cover for them?

          Californians still, to this day, dont think their State regulators are the reason for the 2000-2001 California Energy Crisis. They blame the evil corporation, not the politicians that rigged the game by by deregulating the electricity providers while simultaneously mandating by law that the carriers must buy electricity at any price but also must sell electricity to consumers at a fixed lowball price cap.
      • That's funny, it's the same way here in the USA too.

        Let me tell you something, if you think you have this all figured out then go write the California public utility commission, PG&E, and the governor on your solution. I'm sure that they will find it very interesting and act on it immediately.

        Please don't act as though our political and business leaders in CA have an ounce of common sense between them. They're greedy and stupid, a very dangerous combination that leads to catastrophes like the paradise fire.

        Surely most of us could have seen that coming and recommended better courses of action than what PG&E chose to do instead. So drop the condescending nonsense; our state and PG&G deserve it.

      • by jlar ( 584848 )

        No, I won’t write PG&E. Why should I? If you want an unstable power supply that is your choice. I am just curious why it is so.

        But yes, my country Denmark pretty much has this figured out. We have less than 20 minutes of blackouts per year (frankly I cannot remember the last time we had one) and the lowest in Europe (don’t know about the rest of the World).

        So I am just curious why a rich country such as the USA does not have a more power system.

        • Re:Power lines? (Score:4, Insightful)

          by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 ) on Sunday October 27, 2019 @02:39AM (#59351648) Journal
          Population of Denmark: 2019 estimate, 5,814,461
          Population of the United States: around 300,000,000
          Area of Denmark: 857,510 sq mi
          Area of the United States: 3,796,742 sq mi
          Denmark GDP: 2018 estimate $299 billion
          United States GDP: 2018 estimate $20.580 trillion

          That enough reasons for you? The United States could probably buy Denmark outright, if it were for sale. You live in a tiny country comparatively speaking.
          • by Uecker ( 1842596 )

            In this context, it would make more sense to compare California to Germany.

            • Actually, it would make far more sense to compare to Japan. Japan has earthquakes like CA. Germany freaked out when they got a little tremor from fracking. So, does Japan bury their lines?
              • Japan's population is crammed into a much smaller area than California. California's population is crammed, but not as tightly as Japan. Not sure if that makes any difference in outages, but does show that the comparison is not as good as one might think.
          • "Reasons"? How in the world is that "reasons" and not "excuses"? So what if one country is several times as large as another one in this case? You're saying you *don't* have several times as many electrical engineers as well to handle the several times bigger task?
            • Re:Power lines? (Score:4, Interesting)

              by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 ) on Sunday October 27, 2019 @01:14PM (#59352892) Journal
              Do you have any concept whatsoever of how enormous a project it would be to change all above-ground power distribution to below-ground? That it just plain wouldn't be possible at all in some areas, like mountainous areas? Never mind what it would cost, or how many decades it would take. You speak as if it's some trivial weekend project. Seriously, do you have ANY idea whatsoever about this? I'm not even a power-grid engineer but I at least have a clue how huge a project it would be. The power grid has been built over, what, the last 100 years approximate? How long do you think it would take to basically rebuild it from scratch? How much it would cost?
        • Jeesuz,  Europeans never consider just how large the U.S. is (even just the continental US)

          Denmark:         43,000 km^2
          California:     423,000 km^2
          USA:          9,800,000 km^2  (Continental 8,000,000 km^2)

          Califrnia is 10 times the area of Denmark.
          Continental US is *200* times the size.
          • Seems like I recall Denmark is mostly N European plain. Regardless California's geography is a lot more...interesting...with the problems that come with that. Does Denmark have a supervolcano? With all the problems such terrain brings when the volcano is silent? How about fault lines? Slow moving mud slides that last decades? Not putting down Denmark, the two just are comparable for this issue.
        • Denmark still has overhead transmission lines. Usually underground makes sense for distribution circuits when you have a lot of snow and ice, but it also works pretty well when your energy density (not customer density) is low. A Scandinavian home has better insulation, less air conditioning, more efficient heating (often supplemented by a wood burning stove), and ultimately lower demand than a US home.

    • Kinda heavy cost for a company that is in bankruptcy right now.
    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Uecker ( 1842596 )

      It costs money. You get what you pay for.

      BTW: This is one reason the electricity price is Germany is high, there is a relatively high grid fee. People often claim that the high price only comes from renewable surcharge, but this is only some part of it. I lived in both Germany and California, and while in California there were power outages all the time (even without wild fires), I can't even remember when I last experienced one in Germany. (The other thing which is usually overlooked is that households i

    • > It is of course more expensive

      That's sort of the crux of most things, isn't it? And in this case PG&E has nowhere near the money to do something like that on the scale required. So what should they do? Raise rates astronomically? Raise rates astronomically x3 but only in areas served by these vulnerable lines as some sort of "risk" tax? And even if they wanted to, I doubt the utility regulator would let rates go up like that.

      So now they're left with the option of damage mitigation, especially

      • One other possible approach (dunno if itâ(TM)s feasible or not) might be to add energy storage or temporary generators at strategically located sites. With those, theyâ(TM)d still need to deactivate parts of the grid during windstorms, but they could then use these facilities to provide temporary power during that time.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Aside from being a hideously expensive project, the environmentalist types would scream bloody murder for how much such a project would disturb, if not destroy, wildlands, and they'd be right to be concerned. Also there's no guarantee that even buried power lines couldn't somehow start a wildfire. Consider for a moment how geologically active California is in general.
    • "What about burying the power lines in the fire prone areas?"

      You mean like all the other civilized countries?
      Are you crazy?

      • Japan's are also NOT buried. That is because they also have earthquakes. So where in developed world which has large amounts of earthquakes, are transmissions lines buried?
        • by gweihir ( 88907 )

          Strange then, that this extreme problem with fires seems to only be happening in California, don't you think? Burying is just one option.

          No, sorry. This whole problem is the result from some massive screw-up, no other explanation.

    • by jonwil ( 467024 )

      The problem with burying the power lines is that the whole area sits smack bang on top of a major set of fault lines. Scientists may have invented many things like a vehicle that can drive using nothing but batteries, a giant searchable database containing more information than all the libraries in the world put together and a wristwatch computer many times more powerful than the computers that took man to the moon but science still hasn't invented a way to bury power lines underground that can survive the

      • How about large tunnels (50' high), and put the transmission lines on poles in the tunnel? What about if the tunnels collapse? Well we could sunlight the tunnel so that there's no ceiling to fall down on the lines..../sarcasm.
    • by poptix ( 78287 )

      Environment impact studies for hundreds of thousands of miles worth of power lines?

      You might disturb a brand new variety of worms, sorry, can't do that.

      • Maybe, maybe not. But you WILL disturb the worms currently running that failed state. Let the serfs eat (raw) cake. Heck, at least the medieval serfs could cook using wood. Can't even to that in california.
    • What about burying the power lines in the fire prone areas?

      Retrospectively burying power cables is insanely expensive, and I guarantee there are places in "your country" whichever country on the planet that is which also has areas with lots of overhead power lines.

      Incidentally it's the high voltage cables which are precisely the problem in California.

    • CA customers would likely be better served by building mini grids with storage on each. In addition, I have to wonder if putting in several small SMR nuclear power plants (with desalination) would be cheaper and better.
    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      What, invest money in infrastructure when you can make nice profits and pay large bonuses? That is not the American way!

      Incidentally, I remember one instance in Europe, where a power line touched a tree because of overload and caused an outage. Did not start a fire though. They also make the masts taller here (where they do not bury the cables), exactly to prevent that issue.

    • What about burying the power lines in the fire prone areas? It is of course more expensive but so is the burning of thousands of homes.

      In my country all power cables are buried except for some of the very largest high voltage cables.

      Underground cables are still susceptible to lightning strikes. You are correct about the extreme high voltage cables. While it is possible to put those underground, the expense wouldn't be tolerable.

    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      That would see machines and workers "working" in forests. That is not approved in CA.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • They couldn't find anyone closer, say like 99% of the rest of the country?
    • But doesn't everybody want to be saved by Florida Man?

  • They've constantly sued to prevent the power company from cutting trees along the powerlines [blogspot.com].

    The fires are an entirely foreseeable result of California being a one-party Democratic state.

    • It is the "foreseeable" part that the Democrats just dont fucking care about.

      The shit that was predicted to happen due to their policies, happened, in spite of the claims that the predictions were just a "partisan" attempt to obstruct. The California Democrat voters do not hold the California Democrat politicians accountable even after decades of a cycle of predictions claimed to be partisan followed by predictions coming true followed by outrage and blaming the evil super-regulated business.
  • So how is the electric car working for you?

    • About as well as the gas ones, when the gas station pumps are without power and all the traffic signals are down.

    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      Depends on the wealth of the person in CA.
      Got solar on the roof and some battery system to make the electric car work while the grid is not working?
      Some gas system to make energy for the EV?
      ie the power is off but the electric car can still get the energy it needs every day...
      Fast charge each day when the sun is out. Gas to make electrical power all night?
      That adds up to an electric car to drive for how many hours after how many hours of power?
      In CA the cost of the electric car needs a new power sys
  • I live in San Francisco / San Jose and the weather is very normal. This is complete bullshit. I claim fraud.
    • Re:California (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Rockoon ( 1252108 ) on Sunday October 27, 2019 @05:55AM (#59351914)
      Its all part of the plan. The plan isnt to make you better off. The plan is to get campaign donations and graft. The people of California are repeatedly sold out, especially by the States energy regulators (the birth of Enron, where even the State pension fund was destroyed by it all.)

      The Federal government should give zero fucks about Californias problems.
  • by AbRASiON ( 589899 ) * on Sunday October 27, 2019 @07:01AM (#59351994) Journal

    My wife is there now (I'm home in Aus) and in the middle of a whatsapp voice conversation it went dead.
    It /seems/ as though they don't even have a cell signal in her region (she's at least 90 minutes away from any fires)
    I mean I get power outages happen but cell? She had 70% battery on her. That's extremely legit dark ages dangerous stuff. No power, no phone? It's perfect for particularly oppourtune criminals to be honest, no one can even report them.

    People have hundreds of dollars of groceries in their refridgerators and thousands of people at that, like this is madness. Anywhere from 1 to 4 days without power I hear.

    I hate to bring SOCIALISM or whatever to the table guys, but over here in Aus, some aspects of power delivery are privatised ,but if I recall the actual transmission lines are not, there's safety and standards to keep up.

    Cutting the power to that many people, for that long that even UPS in cell towers goes flat is bananas to me, it's verging on 3'rd world stuff.

    Dangerous and crazy, between that and the housing prices (one of the few places in the world worse then Australia) the medical system, I dunno, the place is going to go full mad max within 30 years I think

    My condolences to the sysadmin types, trying to maintain a business network too.

    • by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Sunday October 27, 2019 @08:35AM (#59352242)

      I hate to bring SOCIALISM or whatever to the table guys

      Australia does not have socialism. It has regulation. There's a difference. When the government mandates the service level requirements under risk of penalty as well as puts in place a mandatory compensation scheme which exists in Australia then there is a lot of effort put into keeping the lights on.

      Incidentally that is also largely to blame for the skyrocketing cost in electricity over the past 2 decades. Australia has well and truly gold plated a large portion of the transmission system.

    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      Cellular towers only have so much battery and other power...
      When that battery/generator energy fails the network has to wait until ...
      The grid power comes back on ...
      The generator is ready again... as the grid works again.
      Re 'No power, no phone?"
      It works with battery and generator power as it should. The part CA is missing is the grid power has to actually work again after a while...
      Or the telco past for a fleet of trucks to transport what makes the "generator" work to most of the cellular towers
  • New headline (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Impy the Impiuos Imp ( 442658 ) on Sunday October 27, 2019 @09:07AM (#59352348) Journal

    2.35 Million Lose Power In California As State Faces Extreme Weather and Wildfires

    This is gonna hurt but you need to face reality. Here's the real headline:

    2.35 Million Lose Power As California Power Companies Strike Back For All The Regulations Punching Them In The Balls The Last 10 Years Making Building Costly And Having Rates Mandated At A Loss Because Politicians Want To Preen For Voters

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