Harvard CS50 Team: We 'Feel More Comfortable' About Harshly Punishing Cheaters 113
theodp writes: In Teaching Academic Honesty in CS50, a new paper scheduled to be presented at SIGCSE 2020, educators behind Harvard's fabled CS50 introductory computer science course report on an unexpected benefit of the introduction of a "regret clause" that gives students who cheat 72 hours to self-report their misdeeds in return for a lesser punishment: It's made the CS50 team lose less sleep over referring "unregretful" cheaters for harsh punishment.
From the SIGCSE paper: "Invocations of that [regret] clause have led to heart-to-heart talks, referrals for mental health, and, ultimately, teachable moments for an otherwise not-previously-reached demographic. But that same clause has also contributed to an uptick in the number of cases referred to the university's honor council for disciplinary action [which may result in required withdrawal from the university], in part because we now feel more comfortable referring cases after students have had an opportunity to take ownership themselves but have chosen not to do so." Bet you didn't see that one coming, kids!
From the SIGCSE paper: "Invocations of that [regret] clause have led to heart-to-heart talks, referrals for mental health, and, ultimately, teachable moments for an otherwise not-previously-reached demographic. But that same clause has also contributed to an uptick in the number of cases referred to the university's honor council for disciplinary action [which may result in required withdrawal from the university], in part because we now feel more comfortable referring cases after students have had an opportunity to take ownership themselves but have chosen not to do so." Bet you didn't see that one coming, kids!
A sad day for America (Score:5, Insightful)
It's quite discouraging to hear that Harvard, one of the best universities in the US, and with some of America's best and brightest students . . . has any cheating problem at all.
What does that say about our future leaders . . . ?
Yes, I opened myself for it, someone can say, "OK, Boomer!", to me now.
I guess I'm just not "woke" to cheating.
Re:A sad day for America (Score:5, Interesting)
It's quite discouraging to hear that Harvard, one of the best universities in the US, and with some of America's best and brightest students . . . has any cheating problem at all.
If... it... is... a real problem and not backstabbing.
I am speaking out of experience here. I have severe S.A.D. (which I did not know at the time) and during my sophomore year the Uni because of overbooking the campus stuffed me to live in a converted basement. No sunlight at all. As a result my grades tanked - I had to drop out of a couple of classes. As spring came along (and sunshine with it) I managed to ace all of the final assignments in the last two months as well as ace the exams - enough to get to B or above everywhere.
I went back home for the summer only to discover that 3 disgruntled c*nts who lost their scholarships due to falling under the curve as a result of being in the same class wrote a letter to the head of the department that I cheated on my exams. The department rescinded my grades as it is "impossible for me from C or lower to go to A".
I just said f*ck it and went back to study in Europe. Somewhere where they will not run you over in a dark alley because you "blew the precious curve"
So I will take any claim of cheating in a USA university with a VERY LARGE pinch of salt. Is it really cheating or it is some scumbag defending his scholarship by any means necessary.
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Wait, what?
Then why try to learn at all if you can't improve?
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In my day and school, final grades were posted publicly using my student ID. And, we shared grades among circles too. And, a discussion with the professor may have revealed the reason behind the change in curve.
Perhaps these folks weren't labelled "c*nts" until after the witch hunt... maybe?
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All I know is, (from personal experience in Middle School) ruining curves is fun. Especially when you barely studied.
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You could make an argument that curving grades is a form of collective punishment, which is outlawed by the Geneva Convention.
It's certainly lazy, and usually implemented in a way that demonstrates ignorance of basic statistical principles.
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It's certainly lazy, and usually implemented in a way that demonstrates ignorance of basic statistical principles.
In my particular case, it was a social studies class where students were having a particularly difficult time on one test, with grades lower than they usually were. The teacher said she would curve the grades unless one more person got an A. I never understood what all the other students were so mad about, I got an A. The test really wasn't that hard.
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That's a perfect example of both lazy and implemented in a way that demonstrates ignorance of basic statistical principles.
Your teacher should have taken the care necessary to make a test that properly reflected the expectations of the class. Get an A? Good, you've satisfied the requirements. Get an F? Sorry, you haven't. Either the teacher just threw some shit at a page, didn't have the conviction to stick to the learning goals in the face of opposition, or was under pressure from above to make sure a ce
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I had something similar happen to me. Less intentionally malicious, but similar in effect.
That kind of accusation is really easy to refute. Just say "I'll take that exam or any similar one right now in front of you".
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I just said f*ck it and went back to study in Europe. Somewhere where they will not run you over in a dark alley because you "blew the precious curve"
But what did those leaden European winters do to your GPA?
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Re: A sad day for America (Score:2)
Re:A sad day for America (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay, there's a lot being unsaid in your story, because nothing about it makes sense.
(1) How did these other three students know your grades? FERPA has been the law in the U.S. since 1974. The school would never post your grades with any personally identifiable information that could link your name to them.
(2) Students go from grades of "C" to "A" all the time. Every professor knows that. It isn't common, but it still happens every year in my own classes. And in any case, you could demonstrate your mastery of the subject in a 10 minute interview with any professor, simply by showing how to solve a problem that is similar to the one on the final exam. There's no way you could fake that in person.
(3) Where was your due process? No university would "rescind" your grade without an Honor Council hearing in which evidence was presented, and in which you could defend yourself and answer those charges. And it certainly wouldn't do so based strictly on accusations alone. Evidence would be required.
(4) How did you "blow the curve", unless you were the top student in the class, and the curve was based on the top student's performance?
Try harder, because your story doesn't pass the smell test.
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How did these other three students know your grades? FERPA has been the law in the U.S. since 1974.
FERPA hasn't been followed religiously until the mid 00's. In just the late 90's, my grades were posted in the hallway with my student ID, which was also my SSN. Not all universities are hep to following the latest rules. Sometimes it takes three decades and a few lawsuits.
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FERPA was followed. It's just that the definition of "followed" changed with the times.
As you pointed out, when FERPA was implemented in the 70's, students names were removed from posted grades and replaced with student ID numbers. Orig
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Went from a D to an A in microelectronics because in one class I had a teach that loved to talk for hours about his job experience rather than teach, and in the later grade replacement class, a teacher (with worse english) but better inclination to the art of teaching. The tests were just as hard but I knew and understood the material since my brain wasn't filled with BS the entire semester.
Also had the department student advisor attempt to slander
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Keep accepting students for non academic reasons and they well need to try and keep cheating...
Re:A sad day for America (Score:5, Insightful)
> It's quite discouraging to hear that Harvard, one of the best universities in the US, and with some of America's best and brightest students . . . has any cheating problem at all.
The stakes are millions of dollars of income after graduation, and roughly $80,000/year of college costs. Their livelihood and their social status, including family approval, ride on these grades. Some of the students have cheated all their lives to get to Harvard, many are under stunning pressure from competitive peers for the first time in their education. And Harvard has many student lawyers, business school members, sponsored foreign children of powerful families, and a very strong streak of far left wing politics. Add to this the pressure right now to "identify as" whatever you wish to be, whether or not it matches your physical nature or the role you trained for, and some confusion and cheating become even more understandable.
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Oh these poor snowflakes now have to compete with just as privileged other snowflakes.
It's not fair, won't someone think of the snowflakes!
Re: A sad day for America (Score:2)
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I didn't realize that a large portion of the Harvard student body was for abolishing private property and seizing the means of production. I'd be interested in reading more about this.
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I'm not a Harvard expert, but Marxist politics have been very common at US Ivy league schools since the invention of MArxism. More recently, I see an anti-Trump Marxist conference listed at:
https://www.thecrimson.com/art... [thecrimson.com]
Marxist politics also seem to be at the root of a great deal of "post-modern". I'm looking at a student complaint about it in 2017, in https://www.campusreform.org/?... [campusreform.org], , where he decries the eager communism of his classmates.
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It's quite discouraging to hear that Harvard, one of the best universities in the US, and with some of America's best and brightest students . . . has any cheating problem at all.
What does that say about our future leaders . . . ?
Bwaaaahahahahahahahahaha! Mod parent hilarious!
I think we'd be more concerned if our leaders *didn't* know every dirty trick in the book. We just want to pretend they don't know.
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Do we want our leaders to know as many dirty tricks as possible? Yes.
Do we want them to use dirty tricks? Given how poorly such leaders actually lead, probably not.
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Do we want our leaders to know as many dirty tricks as possible? Yes.
Do we want them to use dirty tricks? Given how poorly such leaders actually lead, probably not.
Perhaps we want to pretend they don't use them.
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I don't really care either way. In the end all people care about is your piece of paper.
That is not true (Score:2)
In the end all people care about is your piece of paper.
The paper may help get a lot in the door, but what people really care about is what you can do...
Someone who cheats with great regularity, will not be able to do real work in the real world. Cheating has always carried with it a pretty severe punishment in that you are undermining your own success.
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" with some of America's best and brightest students . . . has any cheating problem at all. "
When "best" is determined by a few numbers that come from tests, and tests can be cheated on (and are), well, you've got yourself a circular problem here.
Is it "best" at cheating?
Re: A sad day for America (Score:2)
It's quite discouraging to hear that Harvard, one of the best universities in the US, and with some of America's best and brightest students . . . has any cheating problem at all
In other news, those who were born yesterday are in for some surprise and disappointment.
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It's quite discouraging to hear that Harvard, one of the best universities in the US, and with some of America's best and brightest students . . . has any cheating problem at all.
What does that say about our future leaders . . . ?
Harvard is a school for the rich - not awful academically but in most areas not “one of the top”.
As far as what it says about our future leaders... have you not seen the excesses of much of our current and past leadership? Rich people have always behaved as if regular rules don’t apply to them. Some recent presidents avoided service in Vietnam by taking advantage of their connections, for instance.
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It's quite discouraging to hear that Harvard, one of the best universities in the US, and with some of America's best and brightest students . . . has any cheating problem at all.
Why is this a surprise? I would be surprised if no college students cheated. Past surveys [edutopia.org] have indicated that cheating doesn't only exist but is rampant: "Cases like the much-publicized (and enduring) 2012 cheating scandal at high-achieving Stuyvesant High School in New York City confirm that academic dishonesty is rampant and touches even the most prestigious of schools. The data confirms this as well. A 2012 Josephson Institute’s Center for Youth Ethics report revealed that more than half of high
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It doesn't matter how old you are. Many, or most, leaders have always done a fair amount of cheating. That's how they get to be leaders. The trick is to be *good* at it.
The sadder part... (Score:2)
That, is ridiculous. The problem is cheating, not how one feels about having to punish cheaters.
It leaves one to wonder what kind of parents these people are or w
Not sure why the penalties aren't harsher (Score:2)
Would you want ...
* Surgery from a doctor that cheated?
* Law advice from a lawyer that cheated?
* Tax / Financial advice from an accountant that cheated?
* Blueprints from an architect that cheated?
* An civil servant in office that cheated in Law?
There should be ZERO tolerance of cheating.
Either learn some respect or GTFO.
--
Atheist, noun; a spiritual blind man arguing color doesn't exist.
Religion, noun; spiritual kindergarten.
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The paper on the wall... the office to consult in... professional
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"It would depend".
* A surgeon who did a surgical procedure the FDA hadn't signed off on, to save a patient's life? Perhaps I _would_ hire them.
* A lawyer defending me, a criminal charge who is willing to blackmail a juror? Perhaps I would hire them.
* A tax lawyer who effective launders billions through the incorporation in the Cayman Isles? Perhaps I would hire them.
* Blueprints from an architect who stole them from his previous firm, and helped me underbid his ex boss? Perhaps I would.
* A civil servant who
Re:Not sure why the penalties aren't harsher (Score:4, Insightful)
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I would have to examine my goals. The unequivocal "There should be ZERO tolerance of cheating." is nonsensical in the real world. The nature and reasons of the cheating should be examined.
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The first example of the doctor, I could understand, but would still be concerned about the doctor's overall ethics. The rest were all bullshit amoral actions. Just plain nasty and for personal gain. I give some leeway to the doctor example because there is no personal gain, just a simple effort to save someone's life.
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The first case is cutting the red tape in order to save someone's life. That's fair.
The second case is encouraging corruption and making it possible for a real criminal to get loose. Not cool.
The third case cheats the government of millions of dollars in tax revenue - revenue that go to things like better hospitals and roads. Not cool.
The fourth case is a serious crime for a reason. Look up corporate espionage.
The fifth case depends a lot of circumstance and perception. A lot of the things we say can be tak
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...So you're saying he's a good guy to know if you need to make cash fast, got it. ;)
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ALL objective truth is based upon a SUBJECTIVE experience.
Measurement is not proof; (but it definitely leads credibility.)
Experience IS the proof.
--
Atheist, noun; a self-proclaimed "theology expert" with ZERO knowledge about applied spiritual philosophy.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Pathetic (Score:5, Insightful)
The only issue is if a person is falsely accused of cheating. Most school CS problems have pretty concise solutions, and it is very easy for two people to independently write functionally identical code with similar variable names, which looks exactly like cheating. Of course such a person will deny cheating (because they didn't actually cheat), and as a result suffer the most severe consequences.
Re:Pathetic (Score:4, Informative)
The only issue is if a person is falsely accused of cheating. Most school CS problems have pretty concise solutions, and it is very easy for two people to independently write functionally identical code with similar variable names, which looks exactly like cheating. Of course such a person will deny cheating (because they didn't actually cheat), and as a result suffer the most severe consequences.
I had to back a group of fellow students accused of cheating one time. The CS class was made up of 7 students from one school in the college, and 30 students from another school. Our group (the 7 students) had been taught to collaborate on projects, we talked about theory and how to code a project, but we always coded our own projects. This particular project gave us 70% of the code to start with, then required adding and removing data from a list. We all discussed how to design the code, I particularly liked linked lists so I implemented that way, the others chose to reallocate arrays (the days prior to standard library lists). Out of our group, six got the project working, of the other group I think 5 got the project working. From our group, everyone other than me was accused of cheating because their code was over 75% the same... the code that started with 70% of the code handed to us.
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Have mod points, so going the AC route. I was flagged for "cheating" in grad school because I used my own material in subsequent classes. The school used/uses one of those auto detect cheating services and they catalog everything ever fed into them. A brief conversation and email between instructors cleared things up nicely.
This is referred to as auto-plagarism in Liberal Arts, and grounds for failure on a paper. I'm surprised this was allowed.
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Almost every single, solitary student at Harvard is very "privileged." They are blessed with at least well above average genetics, if not familial wealth as well. This is just another reason why wokeish attitudes are such a joke. Any student who cheats at Harvard should be shown the door absent an extremely compelling reason that would make a jury of people who work for a living agree they deserve mercy.
Gotta cheat in CS50? Drop out. It's what students at "lesser" universities have to do all the time because they were raised right, value honesty and don't want to blow it on a major that's clearly not for them.
You honestly think those over privileged trust-fund babies whose parents bribe their way into Harvard and buy them nice grades are the peak of genetic perfection?
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Re: Pathetic (Score:2)
They are blessed with at least well above average genetics, if not familial wealth as well.
You obviously haven't met a lot of "Ivy League Types." I have; I was raised around 'em and have Harvard post-grads on both sides of my family (not sure if I qualify, as I dropped out of an Ivy League mech. engineering co-op after a year). My entire life I've been surrounded by wealthy snobs; New Englanders, English and Scots, Asians, you name it. I've also hung out in "low places" (not the lowest of the low, by any means)... and I haven't found the average Ivy Leaguer to be in possession of any greater "lat
Re: Pathetic (Score:2)
Re: Pathetic (Score:2)
Plea Bargains (Score:2)
Speaking of privilege finally the privileged twats at Harvard are getting a taste of the unfairness of the plea bargain system that poorer folks deal with all the time.
Confess/Regret even if you did nothing wrong and you will get a slap on the wrist.
Insist on your innocence and the system will throw the book at you.
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Gotta cheat in CS50? Drop out. It's what students at "lesser" universities have to do all the time because they were raised right, value honesty and don't want to blow it on a major that's clearly not for them.
When I was in grad school at a "lesser" university, I spent three semesters as a TA for some introductory CS classes, then later finished out grad school with three semesters as the lead TA for a senior-level, 650-student engineering ethics course. I caught a number of obvious cheaters and I was always surprised by how reluctant professors were to punish them, even in cases of repeated, flagrant behavior.
For instance, that ethics course? I once did an end-of-semester audit of another TA's section to make su
CS50 is completely non-generalizable (Score:3)
Their approach to teaching is a magic show in lectures, then throw a book and an SDK at students and pick marks out of their butt based on how cool the projects they build are. That works if your students are workaholic autodidacts with massive self-confidence and you can grade-inflate (and your students all know that a run-of-the-mill Harvard degree transcript is a near-automatic meal ticket anyway). It also helps to be able to provide them samples of every cool gadget under the sun courtesy of your industry sponsors.
Yea administrators; yea kids! (Score:3)
They may be ferociously smart but even the best college kids are still kids. They screw up; they cheat; they panic; they go down the wrong path and are too afraid to turn around.
College, thank God, isn't an infantry platoon on a cold, windswept hill in a country you've never heard of; its an lovely, expensive, sandbox where the puppies go to frisk and play and learn. One mistake when you're 19 doesn't get you a grave in Arlington, it gets you a sleepless night and a visit with the dean. You get spanked... then you go home for Christmas and get on with life.
As a former miscreant all I can say is, "Thank you administrators." A nice story about applied common sense.
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I sincerely miss being spanked by the dean on those sleepless nights. They were some of the best times.
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I sincerely miss being spanked by the dean . . .
And today we have discovered "triple-secret probation."
The Ivy league schools have some (Score:1)
accounting to do for themselves. They need to be much more selective of the people they admit, and even more selective of the people they graduate.
How many impeached presidents have they graduated?
Two, one strictly partisan (Score:1, Insightful)
> How many impeached presidents have they graduated?
You made me curious, so I checked.
The answer is two - one strictly along party lines and one not.
In Clinton's case, some Democrats voted to impeach and some Republicans voted no on some articles of impeachment.
In Trump's case, Democrats announced "the impeachment has begun!" before he took office. So that's a political impeachment unrelated to Trump's actions.
They tried to impeach over Russia and Mueller report, but the Mueller report clearly stated t
Re:Two, one strictly partisan (Score:4, Insightful)
In Trump's case, Democrats announced "the impeachment has begun!" before he took office. So that's a political impeachment unrelated to Trump's actions.
Some started calling for impeachment immediately, but it was a fringe. Plenty more Republicans tried to claim Obama was inelligible to be President due to the (false) claims around his birth. Remember "not my president"?
They tried to impeach over Russia and Mueller report, but the Mueller report clearly stated there was no evidence any collusion ever happened, the whole thing was a Democrat fantasy.
He didn't say there was no collusion, he simply said "collusion is not a crime" (but conspiracy is) and that he was barred by DoJ policies to bring charges against a sitting president so he couldn't go down that route. He also specifically said the president was not exonerated.
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Just hire a reddit mod. (Score:2)
As a Professor (Score:4, Interesting)
As a Professor I don't feel the least bit guilty about throwing the book at cheaters. I have had students cheat in my class, some in more obvious ways than others, but every one of those whom I caught was dealt with severely.
I've even had students try to cheat on attendance in some of the larger freshmen classes - one kid even hired a homeless guy to come check in his iClicker.
There is no reason at all to be lenient with cheaters, and a confession should not lessen the punishment. Confession can be rewarded in other ways but the punishment for cheating should not be compromised.
Our standard punishment for cheating (first offense) is:
1) Automatic failure of the class
2) Suspension from all extracurricular activities until the end of the following term (including rec sports, fraternities and sororities, etc)
3) Prohibition from attending home games until the end of the following term (any sport)
4) Automatic review and potential loss of scholarships awarded by the school
Second offense is automatic expulsion.
I don't think these are unreasonable at all and shouldn't be softened just because the student suddenly realizes they're in trouble and wants to get out of their just punishment.
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I don't think these are unreasonable at all and shouldn't be softened just because the student suddenly realizes they're in trouble and wants to get out of their just punishment.
I would say that a confession deserves some leniency because at the very least it allows the school to avoid investigations/hearings (your school does examine reports of cheating and doesn't just summarily academically execute the student, right?). A confession allows the school to go straight to administering the punishment, saving time and effort. I would also qualify it that a student confessing of their own volition should carry more weight than someone confessing under pressure once the cheating has
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Thus, you are advocating a system that depends upon the honesty of the dishonest. I do not think it will work.
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his iClicker
Thanks. I had to look that up. As an old timer, I was unfamiliar with that technology. I always thought those were TV remotes and the students were trying to change the channel.
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I've even had students try to cheat on attendance
Why would you care? I lectured at a university where attendance was neither mandatory nor recorded at lectures. Not everyone learns well from lectures, what's the point of making people sit through them in that case?
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That's what I find most absurd in all of this - that the professors felt so bad about punishing cheaters that they had to find an alternative.
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I've even had students try to cheat on attendance in some of the larger freshmen classes
What the fuck?
Academic cheating is bad, but fucking around with attendance? What the fuck kind of college are you working at? That sounds more like a halfway house than a fucking college. Holy mother of god. Sheer insanity. Are the administrators mentally challenged? Attendance doesn't matter at all, only the result.
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Guy should have taken an interdisciplinary course instead. I loved those courses when they offered that option. I think all I had to do is show up for the first day and any time I wanted to be tested on the material. There was no class every day. Prof would be there for any questions at that time, however. We were also allowed to take the test more than once. If you didn't get an A, you're not cut out for college.
Iâ(TM)d get worked up over this (Score:2)
You can't be for real can you ;) (Score:2)
If you're good at math, it's cheating if you pass math?
You had a computer since you were a baby and taught yourself. That's cheating/unfair also to you I guess?
That guy is tall and athletic, so he cheats at sports too?
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You seem to be under the impression that college is some kind of sporting event.
Colleges educate and certify that education. If a student doesn't ever attend a class, gets good grades on all the required work, and gets a good grade in the class, that's mission accomplished. And that student even helped out their classmates by allowing their instruction time to be allocated to other students.
Re: Iâ(TM)d get worked up over this (Score:2)
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Your complaint seems to boil down to the teacher being kinda crap at teaching.
Re: Iâ(TM)d get worked up over this (Score:2)
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Placement exams are occasionally used for core courses in a particular program, but I've never heard of anyone taking a placement exam for an option. That would be pretty annoying, honestly. My university, or at least the CS department, had an exam challenge policy so you could opt to write the final exam for a course and get credit rather than actually taking it. It was a handy option. Still, no one should be excluded from taking a class because they may already meet the requirements. It's the teacher's re
Teachable moment for all but the student (Score:4, Insightful)
"Invocations of that [regret] clause have led to heart-to-heart talks, referrals for mental health, and, ultimately, teachable moments for an otherwise not-previously-reached demographic."
"Here's the teachable moment, you're at Harvard and will manipulate people to get what you want, as a politician or captain of industry. Showing contrition when caught is a valuable skill to practice, as it is part of fabled class SPO50, Shining People On introductory."
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CopyMe.Pas (Score:2)
I don't think she got caught but she failed the exams from what I remember.
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If you copy everything, you learn nothing.
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Harvard in the Business of Selling Education (Score:2)
Oh (Score:2)
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If you read everything with a view as to whether or not you should be outraged then frankly you ought to reconsider your entire life and the choices that lead to that point.
Not that different, really (Score:2)
I see a lot of comments about "elite" students and "privilege" and all that. But really, getting into an Ivy school or any good school is a bit of a crap shoot. Yes, you have to be well positioned but that doesn't really mean money or family in all cases. I went to Harvard, and I was solid middle-class with better than average grades. But that's not really what I want to write about -
I was in the government constitutional class that had the big Harvard cheating scandal a while ago. I wa
I never lost any sleep referring cheaters to dean. (Score:1)
You manage to get into Harvard... (Score:2)
... and then you cheat? How pathetic is that?
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