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Education

Harvard CS50 Team: We 'Feel More Comfortable' About Harshly Punishing Cheaters 113

theodp writes: In Teaching Academic Honesty in CS50, a new paper scheduled to be presented at SIGCSE 2020, educators behind Harvard's fabled CS50 introductory computer science course report on an unexpected benefit of the introduction of a "regret clause" that gives students who cheat 72 hours to self-report their misdeeds in return for a lesser punishment: It's made the CS50 team lose less sleep over referring "unregretful" cheaters for harsh punishment.

From the SIGCSE paper: "Invocations of that [regret] clause have led to heart-to-heart talks, referrals for mental health, and, ultimately, teachable moments for an otherwise not-previously-reached demographic. But that same clause has also contributed to an uptick in the number of cases referred to the university's honor council for disciplinary action [which may result in required withdrawal from the university], in part because we now feel more comfortable referring cases after students have had an opportunity to take ownership themselves but have chosen not to do so." Bet you didn't see that one coming, kids!
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Harvard CS50 Team: We 'Feel More Comfortable' About Harshly Punishing Cheaters

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  • by PolygamousRanchKid ( 1290638 ) on Thursday December 19, 2019 @05:33AM (#59536334)

    It's quite discouraging to hear that Harvard, one of the best universities in the US, and with some of America's best and brightest students . . . has any cheating problem at all.

    What does that say about our future leaders . . . ?

    Yes, I opened myself for it, someone can say, "OK, Boomer!", to me now.

    I guess I'm just not "woke" to cheating.

    • by kot-begemot-uk ( 6104030 ) on Thursday December 19, 2019 @06:06AM (#59536400) Homepage

      It's quite discouraging to hear that Harvard, one of the best universities in the US, and with some of America's best and brightest students . . . has any cheating problem at all.

      If... it... is... a real problem and not backstabbing.

      I am speaking out of experience here. I have severe S.A.D. (which I did not know at the time) and during my sophomore year the Uni because of overbooking the campus stuffed me to live in a converted basement. No sunlight at all. As a result my grades tanked - I had to drop out of a couple of classes. As spring came along (and sunshine with it) I managed to ace all of the final assignments in the last two months as well as ace the exams - enough to get to B or above everywhere.

      I went back home for the summer only to discover that 3 disgruntled c*nts who lost their scholarships due to falling under the curve as a result of being in the same class wrote a letter to the head of the department that I cheated on my exams. The department rescinded my grades as it is "impossible for me from C or lower to go to A".

      I just said f*ck it and went back to study in Europe. Somewhere where they will not run you over in a dark alley because you "blew the precious curve"

      So I will take any claim of cheating in a USA university with a VERY LARGE pinch of salt. Is it really cheating or it is some scumbag defending his scholarship by any means necessary.

      • by Calydor ( 739835 )

        Wait, what?

        Then why try to learn at all if you can't improve?

      • Bull shit. You cheated. And you know it. The lady doth protest too much. So instead of telling them you just went back to europe ? Your story is missing the bit where the undertaker threw mankind into hell
      • I had something similar happen to me. Less intentionally malicious, but similar in effect.

        That kind of accusation is really easy to refute. Just say "I'll take that exam or any similar one right now in front of you".

      • I just said f*ck it and went back to study in Europe. Somewhere where they will not run you over in a dark alley because you "blew the precious curve"

        But what did those leaden European winters do to your GPA?

      • Cheating in College is prevalent. I went to Georgia State University in the late 1980's. I was going for a CS degree although I had already been a professional paid programmer for 3 years. My professional career started in 1983 when personal computers were almost a novelty item. The church at the time that I went to, had a CPM machine donated to the church and I did some minor programing on it in basic that I had learned from those books that used to publish computer games in basic source code. Someone else
      • Hiding in your dorm room during daylight hours is a bad idea whether you've got windows or not.
      • by timholman ( 71886 ) on Thursday December 19, 2019 @11:14AM (#59537558)

        I went back home for the summer only to discover that 3 disgruntled c*nts who lost their scholarships due to falling under the curve as a result of being in the same class wrote a letter to the head of the department that I cheated on my exams. The department rescinded my grades as it is "impossible for me from C or lower to go to A".

        Okay, there's a lot being unsaid in your story, because nothing about it makes sense.

        (1) How did these other three students know your grades? FERPA has been the law in the U.S. since 1974. The school would never post your grades with any personally identifiable information that could link your name to them.

        (2) Students go from grades of "C" to "A" all the time. Every professor knows that. It isn't common, but it still happens every year in my own classes. And in any case, you could demonstrate your mastery of the subject in a 10 minute interview with any professor, simply by showing how to solve a problem that is similar to the one on the final exam. There's no way you could fake that in person.

        (3) Where was your due process? No university would "rescind" your grade without an Honor Council hearing in which evidence was presented, and in which you could defend yourself and answer those charges. And it certainly wouldn't do so based strictly on accusations alone. Evidence would be required.

        (4) How did you "blow the curve", unless you were the top student in the class, and the curve was based on the top student's performance?

        Try harder, because your story doesn't pass the smell test.

        • by Anonymous Coward

          How did these other three students know your grades? FERPA has been the law in the U.S. since 1974.

          FERPA hasn't been followed religiously until the mid 00's. In just the late 90's, my grades were posted in the hallway with my student ID, which was also my SSN. Not all universities are hep to following the latest rules. Sometimes it takes three decades and a few lawsuits.

          • FERPA hasn't been followed religiously until the mid 00's. In just the late 90's, my grades were posted in the hallway with my student ID, which was also my SSN. Not all universities are hep to following the latest rules. Sometimes it takes three decades and a few lawsuits.

            FERPA was followed. It's just that the definition of "followed" changed with the times.

            As you pointed out, when FERPA was implemented in the 70's, students names were removed from posted grades and replaced with student ID numbers. Orig

      • by cb88 ( 1410145 )
        Offer to retake a final exam.... and sue the 3 for slander.

        Went from a D to an A in microelectronics because in one class I had a teach that loved to talk for hours about his job experience rather than teach, and in the later grade replacement class, a teacher (with worse english) but better inclination to the art of teaching. The tests were just as hard but I knew and understood the material since my brain wasn't filled with BS the entire semester.

        Also had the department student advisor attempt to slander
    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      Set really hard exams to enter and most of the best students in the USA should be ok on average.
      Keep accepting students for non academic reasons and they well need to try and keep cheating...
    • by Antique Geekmeister ( 740220 ) on Thursday December 19, 2019 @07:08AM (#59536516)

      > It's quite discouraging to hear that Harvard, one of the best universities in the US, and with some of America's best and brightest students . . . has any cheating problem at all.

      The stakes are millions of dollars of income after graduation, and roughly $80,000/year of college costs. Their livelihood and their social status, including family approval, ride on these grades. Some of the students have cheated all their lives to get to Harvard, many are under stunning pressure from competitive peers for the first time in their education. And Harvard has many student lawyers, business school members, sponsored foreign children of powerful families, and a very strong streak of far left wing politics. Add to this the pressure right now to "identify as" whatever you wish to be, whether or not it matches your physical nature or the role you trained for, and some confusion and cheating become even more understandable.

      • Oh these poor snowflakes now have to compete with just as privileged other snowflakes.
        It's not fair, won't someone think of the snowflakes!

      • a very strong streak of far left wing politics

        I didn't realize that a large portion of the Harvard student body was for abolishing private property and seizing the means of production. I'd be interested in reading more about this.

        • I'm not a Harvard expert, but Marxist politics have been very common at US Ivy league schools since the invention of MArxism. More recently, I see an anti-Trump Marxist conference listed at:

          https://www.thecrimson.com/art... [thecrimson.com]

          Marxist politics also seem to be at the root of a great deal of "post-modern". I'm looking at a student complaint about it in 2017, in https://www.campusreform.org/?... [campusreform.org], , where he decries the eager communism of his classmates.

    • by MrKaos ( 858439 )

      It's quite discouraging to hear that Harvard, one of the best universities in the US, and with some of America's best and brightest students . . . has any cheating problem at all.

      What does that say about our future leaders . . . ?

      Bwaaaahahahahahahahahaha! Mod parent hilarious!

      I think we'd be more concerned if our leaders *didn't* know every dirty trick in the book. We just want to pretend they don't know.

      • Do we want our leaders to know as many dirty tricks as possible? Yes.

        Do we want them to use dirty tricks? Given how poorly such leaders actually lead, probably not.

        • by MrKaos ( 858439 )

          Do we want our leaders to know as many dirty tricks as possible? Yes.

          Do we want them to use dirty tricks? Given how poorly such leaders actually lead, probably not.

          Perhaps we want to pretend they don't use them.

    • I don't really care either way. In the end all people care about is your piece of paper.

      • In the end all people care about is your piece of paper.

        The paper may help get a lot in the door, but what people really care about is what you can do...

        Someone who cheats with great regularity, will not be able to do real work in the real world. Cheating has always carried with it a pretty severe punishment in that you are undermining your own success.

    • " with some of America's best and brightest students . . . has any cheating problem at all. "

      When "best" is determined by a few numbers that come from tests, and tests can be cheated on (and are), well, you've got yourself a circular problem here.

      Is it "best" at cheating?

    • It's quite discouraging to hear that Harvard, one of the best universities in the US, and with some of America's best and brightest students . . . has any cheating problem at all

      In other news, those who were born yesterday are in for some surprise and disappointment.

    • It's quite discouraging to hear that Harvard, one of the best universities in the US, and with some of America's best and brightest students . . . has any cheating problem at all.

      What does that say about our future leaders . . . ?

      Harvard is a school for the rich - not awful academically but in most areas not “one of the top”.

      As far as what it says about our future leaders... have you not seen the excesses of much of our current and past leadership? Rich people have always behaved as if regular rules don’t apply to them. Some recent presidents avoided service in Vietnam by taking advantage of their connections, for instance.

    • It's quite discouraging to hear that Harvard, one of the best universities in the US, and with some of America's best and brightest students . . . has any cheating problem at all.

      Why is this a surprise? I would be surprised if no college students cheated. Past surveys [edutopia.org] have indicated that cheating doesn't only exist but is rampant: "Cases like the much-publicized (and enduring) 2012 cheating scandal at high-achieving Stuyvesant High School in New York City confirm that academic dishonesty is rampant and touches even the most prestigious of schools. The data confirms this as well. A 2012 Josephson Institute’s Center for Youth Ethics report revealed that more than half of high

    • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      It doesn't matter how old you are. Many, or most, leaders have always done a fair amount of cheating. That's how they get to be leaders. The trick is to be *good* at it.

    • There will be cheating so long as there are people who want things that have a limited supply. What I find so disappointing is that Harvard feels so bad about punishing cheaters that they're looking for ways to avoid it. Not to prevent or discourage cheating, but to avoid feeling bad about having to punish someone for breaking vital rules.

      That, is ridiculous. The problem is cheating, not how one feels about having to punish cheaters.

      It leaves one to wonder what kind of parents these people are or w

  • Would you want ...

    * Surgery from a doctor that cheated?
    * Law advice from a lawyer that cheated?
    * Tax / Financial advice from an accountant that cheated?
    * Blueprints from an architect that cheated?
    * An civil servant in office that cheated in Law?

    There should be ZERO tolerance of cheating.

    Either learn some respect or GTFO.

    --
    Atheist, noun; a spiritual blind man arguing color doesn't exist.
    Religion, noun; spiritual kindergarten.

    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      But after 3 to 4 to 6 years of cheating at a top US university they are all professional cheaters...
      The paper on the wall... the office to consult in... professional
    • "It would depend".

      * A surgeon who did a surgical procedure the FDA hadn't signed off on, to save a patient's life? Perhaps I _would_ hire them.
      * A lawyer defending me, a criminal charge who is willing to blackmail a juror? Perhaps I would hire them.
      * A tax lawyer who effective launders billions through the incorporation in the Cayman Isles? Perhaps I would hire them.
      * Blueprints from an architect who stole them from his previous firm, and helped me underbid his ex boss? Perhaps I would.
      * A civil servant who

      • by stabiesoft ( 733417 ) on Thursday December 19, 2019 @09:34AM (#59537056) Homepage
        So based on your conditions where you might hire a cheater, I can only assume you cheated too. Morality is all but dead in the US.
        • I would have to examine my goals. The unequivocal "There should be ZERO tolerance of cheating." is nonsensical in the real world. The nature and reasons of the cheating should be examined.

        • The first example of the doctor, I could understand, but would still be concerned about the doctor's overall ethics. The rest were all bullshit amoral actions. Just plain nasty and for personal gain. I give some leeway to the doctor example because there is no personal gain, just a simple effort to save someone's life.

      • The first case is cutting the red tape in order to save someone's life. That's fair.
        The second case is encouraging corruption and making it possible for a real criminal to get loose. Not cool.
        The third case cheats the government of millions of dollars in tax revenue - revenue that go to things like better hospitals and roads. Not cool.
        The fourth case is a serious crime for a reason. Look up corporate espionage.
        The fifth case depends a lot of circumstance and perception. A lot of the things we say can be tak

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday December 19, 2019 @06:00AM (#59536390)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Re:Pathetic (Score:5, Insightful)

      by bluegutang ( 2814641 ) on Thursday December 19, 2019 @06:52AM (#59536486)

      The only issue is if a person is falsely accused of cheating. Most school CS problems have pretty concise solutions, and it is very easy for two people to independently write functionally identical code with similar variable names, which looks exactly like cheating. Of course such a person will deny cheating (because they didn't actually cheat), and as a result suffer the most severe consequences.

      • Re:Pathetic (Score:4, Informative)

        by Drethon ( 1445051 ) on Thursday December 19, 2019 @07:18AM (#59536550)

        The only issue is if a person is falsely accused of cheating. Most school CS problems have pretty concise solutions, and it is very easy for two people to independently write functionally identical code with similar variable names, which looks exactly like cheating. Of course such a person will deny cheating (because they didn't actually cheat), and as a result suffer the most severe consequences.

        I had to back a group of fellow students accused of cheating one time. The CS class was made up of 7 students from one school in the college, and 30 students from another school. Our group (the 7 students) had been taught to collaborate on projects, we talked about theory and how to code a project, but we always coded our own projects. This particular project gave us 70% of the code to start with, then required adding and removing data from a list. We all discussed how to design the code, I particularly liked linked lists so I implemented that way, the others chose to reallocate arrays (the days prior to standard library lists). Out of our group, six got the project working, of the other group I think 5 got the project working. From our group, everyone other than me was accused of cheating because their code was over 75% the same... the code that started with 70% of the code handed to us.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      "Invocations of that [regret] clause have led to heart-to-heart talks, referrals for mental health, and, ultimately, teachable moments for an otherwise not-previously-reached demographic. But that same clause has also contributed to an uptick in the number of cases referred to the university's honor council for disciplinary action [which may result in required withdrawal from the university], in part because we now feel more comfortable referring cases after students have had an opportunity to take ownership themselves but have chosen not to do so." Bet you didn't see that one coming, kids!

      Almost every single, solitary student at Harvard is very "privileged." They are blessed with at least well above average genetics, if not familial wealth as well. This is just another reason why wokeish attitudes are such a joke. Any student who cheats at Harvard should be shown the door absent an extremely compelling reason that would make a jury of people who work for a living agree they deserve mercy.

      Gotta cheat in CS50? Drop out. It's what students at "lesser" universities have to do all the time because they were raised right, value honesty and don't want to blow it on a major that's clearly not for them.

      You honestly think those over privileged trust-fund babies whose parents bribe their way into Harvard and buy them nice grades are the peak of genetic perfection?

    • They are blessed with at least well above average genetics, if not familial wealth as well.

      You obviously haven't met a lot of "Ivy League Types." I have; I was raised around 'em and have Harvard post-grads on both sides of my family (not sure if I qualify, as I dropped out of an Ivy League mech. engineering co-op after a year). My entire life I've been surrounded by wealthy snobs; New Englanders, English and Scots, Asians, you name it. I've also hung out in "low places" (not the lowest of the low, by any means)... and I haven't found the average Ivy Leaguer to be in possession of any greater "lat

      • Addendum: the role played by genetics is there, but it fades into the background noise, along with brain size... and as poor Asian Americans have shown, it's not necessarily about money, either. It's all about nutrition and environment.
        • Also, any nouveau-riche white or black American will gladly demonstrate what I'm talking about; just ask 'em to open their fucking fridge.
    • Speaking of privilege finally the privileged twats at Harvard are getting a taste of the unfairness of the plea bargain system that poorer folks deal with all the time.
      Confess/Regret even if you did nothing wrong and you will get a slap on the wrist.
      Insist on your innocence and the system will throw the book at you.

    • Gotta cheat in CS50? Drop out. It's what students at "lesser" universities have to do all the time because they were raised right, value honesty and don't want to blow it on a major that's clearly not for them.

      When I was in grad school at a "lesser" university, I spent three semesters as a TA for some introductory CS classes, then later finished out grad school with three semesters as the lead TA for a senior-level, 650-student engineering ethics course. I caught a number of obvious cheaters and I was always surprised by how reluctant professors were to punish them, even in cases of repeated, flagrant behavior.

      For instance, that ethics course? I once did an end-of-semester audit of another TA's section to make su

  • As somebody who taught at a respectable but not quite as crazily resourced university as Harvard, it's hard to care what they have to say about anything relating to teaching CS.

    Their approach to teaching is a magic show in lectures, then throw a book and an SDK at students and pick marks out of their butt based on how cool the projects they build are. That works if your students are workaholic autodidacts with massive self-confidence and you can grade-inflate (and your students all know that a run-of-the-mill Harvard degree transcript is a near-automatic meal ticket anyway). It also helps to be able to provide them samples of every cool gadget under the sun courtesy of your industry sponsors.

  • by Joe Branya ( 777172 ) on Thursday December 19, 2019 @07:35AM (#59536598)

    They may be ferociously smart but even the best college kids are still kids. They screw up; they cheat; they panic; they go down the wrong path and are too afraid to turn around.

    College, thank God, isn't an infantry platoon on a cold, windswept hill in a country you've never heard of; its an lovely, expensive, sandbox where the puppies go to frisk and play and learn. One mistake when you're 19 doesn't get you a grave in Arlington, it gets you a sleepless night and a visit with the dean. You get spanked... then you go home for Christmas and get on with life.

    As a former miscreant all I can say is, "Thank you administrators." A nice story about applied common sense.

    • by whoda ( 569082 )

      I sincerely miss being spanked by the dean on those sleepless nights. They were some of the best times.

  • accounting to do for themselves. They need to be much more selective of the people they admit, and even more selective of the people they graduate.

    How many impeached presidents have they graduated?

    • > How many impeached presidents have they graduated?

      You made me curious, so I checked.
      The answer is two - one strictly along party lines and one not.

      In Clinton's case, some Democrats voted to impeach and some Republicans voted no on some articles of impeachment.

      In Trump's case, Democrats announced "the impeachment has begun!" before he took office. So that's a political impeachment unrelated to Trump's actions.

      They tried to impeach over Russia and Mueller report, but the Mueller report clearly stated t

      • by Nidi62 ( 1525137 ) on Thursday December 19, 2019 @09:07AM (#59536940)

        In Trump's case, Democrats announced "the impeachment has begun!" before he took office. So that's a political impeachment unrelated to Trump's actions.

        Some started calling for impeachment immediately, but it was a fringe. Plenty more Republicans tried to claim Obama was inelligible to be President due to the (false) claims around his birth. Remember "not my president"?

        They tried to impeach over Russia and Mueller report, but the Mueller report clearly stated there was no evidence any collusion ever happened, the whole thing was a Democrat fantasy.

        He didn't say there was no collusion, he simply said "collusion is not a crime" (but conspiracy is) and that he was barred by DoJ policies to bring charges against a sitting president so he couldn't go down that route. He also specifically said the president was not exonerated.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          You massively understate the size of the "fringe" that have attempted to impeach President Trump. This has been a consistently growing problem since Reagan. To be clear: there have been calls for every president since Reagan onwards to be impeached and it is part of the growing division in this country that the opposition party does not do better to restrain its members to respect electoral outcomes and to avoid actions which can be seen as trying to nullify elections and disenfranchise the votes of those
      • Re: (Score:1, Flamebait)

        by stabiesoft ( 733417 )
        Yeah, so mitch voted guilty on Bill lying about getting a BJ and has already spearheaded a quick trial of not guilty for a guy who extorted political favors from a foreign government to the tune of 500M. Yep, I get it, you are OK with trump shooting someone on 6th and blaming the victim. Just don't be surprised when trump anoints himself dictator like Erdogan did in Turkey and puts Barron in line for his successor. And yes I think he is that crazy and given people like mitch and all trump's loyalty pledge i
  • A reddit moderator is perfect for this job, they are soulless, complete robots, incapable of free will, and are spear-chucking tribalists who run crying to the admins screaming "BWIGADING BWIGADING" if someone makes an opposite opinion on their hugbox forum. Bonus; they'll let marginalized people get away with it because some dumbfuck 200 years ago owned slaves.
  • As a Professor (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 19, 2019 @07:55AM (#59536674)

    As a Professor I don't feel the least bit guilty about throwing the book at cheaters. I have had students cheat in my class, some in more obvious ways than others, but every one of those whom I caught was dealt with severely.

    I've even had students try to cheat on attendance in some of the larger freshmen classes - one kid even hired a homeless guy to come check in his iClicker.

    There is no reason at all to be lenient with cheaters, and a confession should not lessen the punishment. Confession can be rewarded in other ways but the punishment for cheating should not be compromised.

    Our standard punishment for cheating (first offense) is:

    1) Automatic failure of the class
    2) Suspension from all extracurricular activities until the end of the following term (including rec sports, fraternities and sororities, etc)
    3) Prohibition from attending home games until the end of the following term (any sport)
    4) Automatic review and potential loss of scholarships awarded by the school

    Second offense is automatic expulsion.

    I don't think these are unreasonable at all and shouldn't be softened just because the student suddenly realizes they're in trouble and wants to get out of their just punishment.

    • by Nidi62 ( 1525137 )

      I don't think these are unreasonable at all and shouldn't be softened just because the student suddenly realizes they're in trouble and wants to get out of their just punishment.

      I would say that a confession deserves some leniency because at the very least it allows the school to avoid investigations/hearings (your school does examine reports of cheating and doesn't just summarily academically execute the student, right?). A confession allows the school to go straight to administering the punishment, saving time and effort. I would also qualify it that a student confessing of their own volition should carry more weight than someone confessing under pressure once the cheating has

      • Let's rethink that. Cheaters are not honest. That is why they cheat instead of working harder.

        Thus, you are advocating a system that depends upon the honesty of the dishonest. I do not think it will work.

    • I wish there were more of you. As I recall, where I went, there was a CS course where someone cheated and got an F for the class. I also recall a grad course where the prof was unhappy with lack of attendance at a Saturday class(yes saturday in grad school, overcrowding caused many inconveniences) and said point blank, "If you think because you are in grad school, you will automatically get an A or a B, think again". He failed as with an F two out of 30, gave several C's and D's. I for one was pretty happy
    • by PPH ( 736903 )

      his iClicker

      Thanks. I had to look that up. As an old timer, I was unfamiliar with that technology. I always thought those were TV remotes and the students were trying to change the channel.

    • Any class that requires an iclicker probably wasn't worth going to anyway.
    • Please be a judge and act that way with criminals :) . You did a crime and admit it. Thats fine, complete your whole sentence without losing a day. No deals. You did a crime, pay for it completely.
    • I've even had students try to cheat on attendance

      Why would you care? I lectured at a university where attendance was neither mandatory nor recorded at lectures. Not everyone learns well from lectures, what's the point of making people sit through them in that case?

    • But don't you feel so bad about having to punish those poor little cheaters? Doesn't your heart just break when you look into their big soft eyes, filled with tears because they got caught breaking one of the most important rules in academia?

      That's what I find most absurd in all of this - that the professors felt so bad about punishing cheaters that they had to find an alternative.

    • I've even had students try to cheat on attendance in some of the larger freshmen classes

      What the fuck?

      Academic cheating is bad, but fucking around with attendance? What the fuck kind of college are you working at? That sounds more like a halfway house than a fucking college. Holy mother of god. Sheer insanity. Are the administrators mentally challenged? Attendance doesn't matter at all, only the result.

    • by ebvwfbw ( 864834 )

      Guy should have taken an interdisciplinary course instead. I loved those courses when they offered that option. I think all I had to do is show up for the first day and any time I wanted to be tested on the material. There was no class every day. Prof would be there for any questions at that time, however. We were also allowed to take the test more than once. If you didn't get an A, you're not cut out for college.

  • But then I remind myself when I was in college it was fairly common for example for people to take classes in foreign languages at basic levels that were already fluent for an easy top grade and that isnâ(TM)t considered cheating. Since it was so common the expectations of the average student were just warped by people doing that and it was not particularly fair but hey, screw you for not being important enough to be able to summer in Europe since you were 5.
    • If you already know something and pass the test, how on Earth is that cheating or unfair?
      If you're good at math, it's cheating if you pass math?
      You had a computer since you were a baby and taught yourself. That's cheating/unfair also to you I guess?
      That guy is tall and athletic, so he cheats at sports too?
    • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      You seem to be under the impression that college is some kind of sporting event.

      Colleges educate and certify that education. If a student doesn't ever attend a class, gets good grades on all the required work, and gets a good grade in the class, that's mission accomplished. And that student even helped out their classmates by allowing their instruction time to be allocated to other students.

      • So first off your typical uni has placement exams for these courses that in theory prevent someone from taking a course that is either too advanced but also too basic. IE one where they actually already know the subject matter to a standard greater than expected for that class. Furthermore you said it yourself, in theory a class is about the student learning something new and then being graded on that learning. The people Iâ(TM)m talking about are not actually learning anything since theyâ(TM)re a
        • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

          Your complaint seems to boil down to the teacher being kinda crap at teaching.

          • In a way yes. I was always a little amazed when it would happen the teacher would never suggest the student was in the wrong class because they were already fluent. Instead they would be the favorite student and the teacher would just love talking to him or her. I donâ(TM)t blame anyone for doing this since I think we all know the game, you take classes to get grades, you get grades to graduate and be certified. If you happen to learn anything on the side well that is not particularly important.
            • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

              Placement exams are occasionally used for core courses in a particular program, but I've never heard of anyone taking a placement exam for an option. That would be pretty annoying, honestly. My university, or at least the CS department, had an exam challenge policy so you could opt to write the final exam for a course and get credit rather than actually taking it. It was a handy option. Still, no one should be excluded from taking a class because they may already meet the requirements. It's the teacher's re

  • by Impy the Impiuos Imp ( 442658 ) on Thursday December 19, 2019 @09:52AM (#59537138) Journal

    "Invocations of that [regret] clause have led to heart-to-heart talks, referrals for mental health, and, ultimately, teachable moments for an otherwise not-previously-reached demographic."

    "Here's the teachable moment, you're at Harvard and will manipulate people to get what you want, as a politician or captain of industry. Showing contrition when caught is a valuable skill to practice, as it is part of fabled class SPO50, Shining People On introductory."

    • Except this article doesn't describe students showing contrition when caught. If you read the article, the authors state that the vast majority of those who invoke the "regret clause" would NOT have been detected as cheaters otherwise.
  • I remember my data structures class in university a while ago (we used Turbo Pascal), one female student had been given the nickname copyme.pas since she would always ask for our code to copy.

    I don't think she got caught but she failed the exams from what I remember.
  • Well, whomever has the most money gets the best education in the first place, right?
  • Am I ... supposed to be outraged about this for some reason?
    • If you read everything with a view as to whether or not you should be outraged then frankly you ought to reconsider your entire life and the choices that lead to that point.

  • I see a lot of comments about "elite" students and "privilege" and all that. But really, getting into an Ivy school or any good school is a bit of a crap shoot. Yes, you have to be well positioned but that doesn't really mean money or family in all cases. I went to Harvard, and I was solid middle-class with better than average grades. But that's not really what I want to write about -
    I was in the government constitutional class that had the big Harvard cheating scandal a while ago. I wa

  • I graded tests by writing the correct answers and comments about why their answers were incorrect in comparison. One year, a student erased his wrong answer and wrote in the correct one, and had the audacity to claim he wrote the correct answer all along. A quick copy with increased contrast brought out his prior answer (and how it meshed with my comment about his incorrect answer). All future marked-down tests were photocopied before being returned from that point forward. I don't miss grading at all.
  • ... and then you cheat? How pathetic is that?

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