New York Is Proposing the Creation of a 'Public Venmo' (vice.com) 161
pnutjam writes: New York is proposing a statewide virtual currency aimed at helping unbanked citizens get access to day-to-day financial transactions without predatory fees. Since there are an estimated 14 million U.S. adults without bank accounts, lawmakers in New York are trying to fix this with a new bill that "would create a 'public Venmo' system designed to include more people in the formal economy and stimulate local economic growth," reports Motherboard. "In November, New York State Assemblymember Ron Kim, Senator Julia Salazar, and Cornell law professor Robert Hockett announced their Inclusive Value Ledger (IVL) proposal. If passed, it would create the country's first publicly owned electronic banking platform, as well as a digital currency that can be exchanged for goods and services within the state."
"The IVL plan calls for New York State to distribute the $55 billion per year in uncollected individual tax credits through a 'public Venmo,' a publicly-administered, non-extractive payment system that would allow recipients to spend freely within the state economy without transaction fees or delays," the report says. "Every business and individual residing in New York would be issued a virtual wallet, connected to a state government-controlled master wallet, that could act as a viable alternative to a bank account without the fees of a for-profit bank." The proposal does not include any specifics as to how the payment system will be secure, nor does it address the specific privacy needs for certain groups the lawmakers hope the system will serve, such as people who are undocumented.
"The IVL plan calls for New York State to distribute the $55 billion per year in uncollected individual tax credits through a 'public Venmo,' a publicly-administered, non-extractive payment system that would allow recipients to spend freely within the state economy without transaction fees or delays," the report says. "Every business and individual residing in New York would be issued a virtual wallet, connected to a state government-controlled master wallet, that could act as a viable alternative to a bank account without the fees of a for-profit bank." The proposal does not include any specifics as to how the payment system will be secure, nor does it address the specific privacy needs for certain groups the lawmakers hope the system will serve, such as people who are undocumented.
Venmo = PayPal for phones only. (Score:3)
Venmo is a spinoff of PayPal designed to only work with smartphones.
Now, from the story of PayPal we've learned that to do these things, you have to be a bank. So there it is, they want a city-owned Bank of New York State that has "mobile banking" and effectively Zelle.
Only news here is that NY is entering into this game.
Re:Venmo = PayPal for phones only. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Venmo = PayPal for phones only. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now theres a greed based comment and modding. Simply when the body paying welfare, creates a credit payment system, they can supply it free of charge to recipients and thus logically get the most bang for that buck, they pay those corporate fees and the welfare recipients has to do with less, so psychopathic billionaires can make more, in corporate profit taxes. Not taxes corporations pay but fascist taxes corporations earn by government mandate on all transaction citizens have to make.
It is appropriate for government to provide corporate tax free payment methods for citizens on welfare and thus extend the tax payer dollar.
Also they track, recipients and spending patterns. So the payment system is a little big brother more than it is costly, it fact it will save hundreds of millions of dollars applied upon a broad basis.
Corporations should not really earn profits on tax payer dollars, that just means citizens need to pay more taxes to pay those corporate profits, it really makes no sense what so ever. Do it for government, do it at cost, don't want to, let government do it at cost, more bank for the citizens pockets and less corporate tax profits at tax payer expense. They never do it cheaper, they always end up charging more and provide terrible services to citizens.
Profits are evil when they come out of citizens pockets as taxes.
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https://www.thenation.com/arti... [thenation.com]
Re:Venmo = PayPal for phones only. (Score:4, Informative)
Not having a bank account makes life hard. Banks have commercial interests. In the UK they are informally obliged to provide almost everyone with free banking services anyway.
A basic account, no overdraft or credit card. Minimal risk, no profit but a very valuable service for some people.
The main problem is that if it's not attractive to people who could get a normal bank account then it becomes associated with poverty and discriminated against. Still better than nothing though.
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There are many reasons people do not have bank accounts. And none of those will be addressed by making these people accept a government-run bank
account.
Since New York won't be creating a bank to do this, be sure this is about capturing transaction fees and generating revenue for their partner. If the account holders don't pay the fees, someone else does - merchants, other banks via transfers, etc.
No, this is not quite the same thing as EBT. It's a scam. The only question is who pays in the end, and in NY,
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It's not about transaction fees. It's about being able to trace and tax people who deliberately use cash to avoid that sort of thing. It's absurd on the face of it.
The underground economy is underground, not because it's entirely efficient... it isn't... but for reasons that seem quite adequate to many people.
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Economist have been recommending for decades that the Fed start offering free checking accounts for americans. There are large numbers of people who don't have them and are incurring fees every time they cash their paychecks and then incurring money order fees when they pay their bills, not to mention that having to cut physical checks is costing the government lots of money that we, the taxpayer, are on the hook for. Not to mention there are a whole range of consumer services it is nigh impossible to eng
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And after that goes awhile...it is mandated to be the ONLY method of $$ usage in the US.
Sounds to me like a nice step towards forcing a cash-less system upon us where everything is tracked even more so than today.
Re: Venmo = PayPal for phones only. (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, you're right. Let's ignore a lot of good practical solutions to problems because of conspiracy theory reasons.
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Typically if there is something that business does ok or even bad at the Tax payer funded version will be worse. ... give some public property, like telecommunications to a private business and they ruin it ... infrastructure wise and prices wise ...
Strange that it is in Europe just the opposite around
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There is a reason that these people do not have bank accounts
A lot of it is cultural. And a lot of it is also because banking can be made extremely difficult. In other countries, you can open a bank account at a post office (just think of it.) In others, they allow you to open accounts with meager deposits. OTH, in our country, there's little incentive for banking to expand to those who do not have an account. That's where the government can come in.
The sure government can fuck things up, but there are also examples (here and abroad) where government initiatives a
m-Pesa has been a real benefit to Kenyans (Score:5, Insightful)
In Kenya m-Pesa has been quite a boon to rural Kenyans especially, who have had no access to banking in the past. I read an article that talked about how many of these people had a hard time managing their money when it was just cash, since cash in pocket gets spent quickly. Now that most things are done with m-Pesa, it's on their cell phones and somehow that extra step helps people manage their money better.
Anyway I'm in favor of these sorts of plans. I just wish the media would stop referring to it as virtual currency because it's not. It's still going to be US dollars. It's not a bitcoin that has speculative value.
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Real dollars have primarily speculative value, as well, since the end of the gold standard and silver standard. I do agree that dollars are more stable and reliable that bitcoin.
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Cash, debit, credit, Apple Pay - in that order (Score:3)
The marketers have done the research on what people spend with different payment methods. McDonald's, for example, did their homework and got the numbers.
Psychiatrists, too, have done research on this. They found that when someone hands over cash money, there is a flash of activity in the posterior insula - the pain center of the brain. People especially don't like to hand over a $20 bill, and will ask their friend for a quarter to avoid breaking a twenty.
What the research shows is that when people have t
Re:Cash, debit, credit, Apple Pay - in that order (Score:4, Interesting)
Oh sure westerners have a real problem with credit cards.
The situation in Kenya, and indeed the situation of may people who would be the focus of this project, is nuanced. m-pesa is helping and leading to improved financial management in part because it helps people to keep their hard-earned money in a more individual way. For example, in many rural families, men spend the money their wives earn, frivolously. M-pesa empowers women while hopefully teaching the men to be more responsible.
There've been plenty of articles exploring the effect of m-pesa on Kenyan society, and generally speaking it's been positive. More so than straight cash. Maybe they are an exception to the rule, but I suspect similar things might be found in this NY experiment.
Plus I've seen plenty of people who spend every bit of cash they get. Lock it away in an account and things get a little more under control.
Re:Cash, debit, credit, Apple Pay - in that order (Score:4, Insightful)
Granted, Kenya is not the United States, so the research in the US may certainly not directly apply to Kenya. New York is, of course, very much the United States.
If the purpose was to help people manage money better, rather than save the state money on mailing out checks, I can think of one way an app could help. (I suspect the marketing of the project doesn't exactly reflect the reasons the state wants to do it - electronic saves the state money).
The primary first step in getting control of money, the big thing that helps people who are having trouble, is a written budget. Even better, actually putting money into piles such as "rent money" and "entertainment", so that you can only spend rent money on restaurants or coffee if you do it ON PURPOSE. When you have to actually take money out of the "gas money" section and spend it on on a chocolate shake, that makes a difference. The app could leverage that.
It could have 6-8 categories and whenever you make a payment you select which category it is. You'd put money into the categories when you get your monthly payment. So first of the month, the state sends you money, or your employer does, you stick some in the "rent" category, some in the "gas" category, and some in the "fun" category. Of course you can't stop people from spending money foolishly, but that would make it easy to manage a monthly budget and stupid things would only be done on purpose.
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Its un-collected tax credits, $55 Billion of them/year... At least that's what the summary said:
"The IVL plan calls for New York State to distribute the $55 billion per year in uncollected individual tax credits through a 'public Venmo,' a publicly-administered, non-extractive payment system that would allow recipients to spend freely within the state economy without transaction fees or delays," the report says.
What the hell are those anyway?
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In Kenya m-Pesa has been quite a boon to rural Kenyans especially
M-Pesa works well because it is run by profit-seeking capitalists, not the government.
"unbanked citizens" (Score:2)
First, is this a slashdot trick to RTFA?
"The percentage of U.S. households that were unbanked in 2017 the most recent year of the survey, was 6.5 percent, the lowest rate recorded since the FDIC began conducting the survey in 2009. It was down from 7.0 percent in 2015, and down significantly from a high of 8.2 percent in 2011. The unbanked numbers for 2017 equate to 14.1 million adults in 8.4 million households not having a checking or savings account."
I mean, that linked article talks about how ALREADY the
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Let's be honest: the "unbanked citizens" generally don't have money ANYWAY.
Or they have money but won't open a bank account:
Shakers, Mennonites, Amish, Hutterites, Quakers and even Libertarians
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Drug Dealers, Prostitutes, people that work under the table, etc...
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Hutterites may not have any personal bank accounts, but the colonies surely do! And I'm not actually sure they don't have personal bank accounts.
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I saw a Mennonite lady (I assume not Amish since her blouse was blue with purple bonnet) load some baked goods from their horse cart into a range rover, get in the driver's seat, then whip out a smart phone and ask google for directions to some farm. So at least some of them do.
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Was she in NY state?
Do you think she is "unbanked"?
Isn't it possible she was a driver for the Mennonites or Amish? Driving a car is an issue, riding in one is not. When I lived in NJ it was common to see Amish farmers from PA be shuttled in from PA in a white passenger van to work in a "Farmers Market" stall selling vegetables, preserves, and handmade goods.
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Who's suggesting that? I didn't read that in either the summary or the article.
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In a word, yes. In a representative government, at least you get a vote. In a monopoly, you get no voice.
Public pensions are a whole different issue. I am sure there are instances where they get out of hand, but soldiers, firefighters, police... are somewhat justified because they are signing up for a field in which ther
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The problem with capitalism is it does not make everyone even just even opportunity (not perfectly) the problem with other systems the make everyone even basically at zero or close to. Socialism is the perfect way to kill everyone's hopes and dreams.
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And it doesn't even do that. Stop bullshitting people. We've seen what capitalism does. Extract capital out of the economy.
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A city will further protect illegal migrants from reporting/detection at the banking level by providing bank "like" services?
The more banks and a federal gov work to detect a lack of ID, junk/shared/a lack of citizenship, the more a city moves in to hide the illegal migrants?
What is an unbanked citizen?
Can a bank not offer a "free" charity like gov ba
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Credit Union (Score:3)
Every business and individual residing in New York would be issued a virtual wallet, connected to a state government-controlled master wallet, that could act as a viable alternative to a bank account without the fees of a for-profit bank.
Do they not have credit unions in New York?
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They could solve this easily, without implementing a costly ridiculous state system - require all banks to offer a no-frills checking account, with ATM card and online access, for free for anyone who earns less than a certain amount per year. Thats how its handled in the UK (Im not sure about the rest of the EU, but I think its the same) - every consumer orientated bank is required by law to offer free banking for everyone (and yes, you can still get paid accounts with frills and benefits) and this law is
Re: Credit Union (Score:3)
The eu regulation is that banks must offer a basic payment account, online payment service and a payment (debit) card. The fees are not specifically regulated other than that they should be "resonable" https://europa.eu/youreurope/c... [europa.eu]
In my experience, this hasn't worked 100%, those who previously had difficulty opening accounts (in my country there was a similar law concering payment accounts) are still being denied service, now with the excuse that the bank has to ensure that the account won't be used for
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Just to back up my original claim, in the UK these basic accounts are indeed fee-free: https://www.gov.uk/government/... [www.gov.uk]
As I said, I wasn’t sure about the rest of the EU, but I thought it was the same - obviously not, the UK laws exceed the EU regulations.
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That would eat into the banks profits. Here in Canada (population about 35 million) the banks are already crying about only having $15 billion for bonuses this year. Won't someone think of the poor bankers.
https://www.thestar.com/opinio... [thestar.com]
Post Office Banking (Score:2)
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No ID, ID that is not accepted anymore... a person who does not like been in a bank, in a gov building... due to reasons..
let some gov service, NGO charity work on getting that citizen ID.
It takes months for the expert to walk the citizens life and collect all the needed documents.
Photo ID is finally done.
A bank worker, gov worker and the NGO/city/charity worker all get together and create a "free" bank account for the citizen as they now have ID.
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I hate to break this to you, but medical care in the U.S. is *not* better/faster/cheaper than elsewhere.
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"Monarchy seems to be the way things are heading. Without congress to stop him, a president (any president, any party) will soon become an elected king who rules the way he wants for the duration of his mandate. It's really an odd feeling to see how quickly democracy is turning into monarchy everywhere."
Duh. The definition of a "republic" is an elected monarch. That monarch is just labelled differently since "King/Queen" implies hereditary appointment.
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That's pretty much the way things have been since Roosevelt. So going on 90 years. Get over it.
Bitcoin (Score:3)
The last thing the world needs is government issued and controlled virtual currencies, the idea gives me shivers as to how badly it could be abused by corrupt authorities.
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The IMF is already salivating at the idea of eliminating cash so they can use negative interest rates to steal the money right out of your bank account [imf.org].
"In a cashless world, there would be no lower bound on interest rates. A central bank could reduce the policy rate from, say, 2 percent to minus 4 percent to counter a severe recession. The interest rate cut would transmit to bank deposits, loans, and bonds. Without cash, depositors would have to pay the negative interest rate to keep their money with the
Decentralization is a one-time event: Bitcoin (Score:2)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitco... [reddit.com]
https://medium.com/@jimmysong/... [medium.com]
https://www.whatbitcoindid.com... [whatbitcoindid.com]
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but why the fuck would you make the jump to virtual currencies but not make them fully decentralised?
Leaving aside the power and cost of virtual currencies in the current climate and let's go straight to:
The last thing the world needs is government issued
Non government issued currencies have existed in the past. One of the great things about the government not having control over the currency or the economy is to watch it from afar when it horrendously crashes. There's a reason the world moved on from the gold standard (again) after the great depression. Th
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Accountability (Score:5, Insightful)
No transaction fees, no profits. Then who will pay for the service?
A) The merchants who accepts these payments. Yet, the proposal seems to make it free for them too.
B) "Invest" the money in the accounts. That might sound good, however I have no example of government successfully doing this
C) The public.
I would guess (C) is the most likely option. However given the current state of public transport as an example, I am not sure how good the public payment system would be. If you neglect transit maintenance, the worst thing that could happen are delays, and people using the facilities as public bathrooms. If you neglect financial security, you have really bad results.
Investment Schemes (Score:3)
The surplus that US social security system had made in the 80's and 90's was used to invest in US treasury bonds. That money was promptly paid into the general fund, covering up some losses. Guess who is on the hook to pay off the bonds when they come due?
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Guess who is on the hook to pay off the bonds when they come due?
Those obligations are included in the National Debt total (est. $22 Trillion) and are owed by the organization that borrowed it.
There is nothing surprising here, everything is accounted for.
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The last several administrations have doubled the national debt - Bush did it, Obama did it, going back further Clinton did it, and so did Reagan - Bush '41 gets a pass, as does Carter, since they were one-term wonders/Presidencies.
The SS "debt" is part of the $20 Trillion, and as we spend down the SS surplus over the next few years it will be repaid as the Treasury converts IOUs in the so-called SS "lockbox" into cash by selling the debt to a foreign nation, simply transferring the debt currently held by S
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The public pays for everything, including that other people need to handle cash. Cash is not free.
Say what? (Score:2)
Then who will pay for the service?
What service? Why do you have to pay to be able to pay? With all the different payment methods, the only thing the banks deliver is an anti-service. Payment only got harder. Now you have to find out what payment methods are accepted and if you agree with that. In the days where cash was still accepted everywhere I could just walk into a shop and buy something.
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Citizens get a "free" bank account, working photo ID as needed.
Require a photo ID, how racist, sexist, xenophobic!
Don't you know that the poor, minorities, and women are hard-pressed to get and hold on to photo ID - the very groups this is intended to help? If requiring photo id to vote is discriminatory, why wouldn't requiring it for banking be equally discriminatory? /sarcasm
WeChat Wallet (Score:4, Interesting)
This is one area where China managed to surpass the US. In the US, there are multiple competing "virtual wallets"--none of which are (to my knowledge) cross-compatible, and all of which require a bank account (and PitA verification--I've had to deal with it).
WeChat [wikipedia.org] includes a "wallet" that does NOT require a bank account for basic use, is accepted everywhere in China (even beggars have QR codes posted so you can send them money), allows you to pay your all your utilities, and lets you send and receive money from everyone.
The downside, of course, is that the Chinese government is getting all of that data.
If Google and Apple (and whomever else) got together and created a system that was as ubiquitous and easy to use, it would be.... well... ubiquitous. It's a fair bet that US laws regarding banking will never let that happen.
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This is one area where China managed to surpass the US.
Really?
Good luck paying cash in China.
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Every Chinese business I've ever dealt with was quite happy to take my cash, and nearly all of them would also accept either of my debit cards (one Swedish, one American) without any issues.
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A) all banking in the US is government-controlled and monitored. That includes all banking apps (such as those from Google and Apple).
B) WeChat does not have "full access to your money". It probably has *less* access than US banking apps--because it doesn't require a linked bank account.
C) Nobody is comparing apps to cash or checking accounts. It's comparing apps to apps (and the infrastructure behind them). American and Chinese governments collect equal amounts of info on transactions (arguably, America
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Do you not think that WeChat has full access to the funds in the wallet? And how do you think funds get into the WeChat account? Why do the sites that talk about how a WeChat wallet getting funded talk about using a bank account to do it? https://www.travelchinacheaper... [travelchinacheaper.com]
Federal Reserve Notes Work Just Fine (Score:2)
But before that...
They will know your every expenditure. They will judge you on which businesses you patronize with it.
They will decide who you can spend with. Vendors whose political views may disagree with the admins can be locked out.
Cash is still better.... (Score:3)
Cash = privacy.
More "war on cash" crap. Good thing it's only a proposal, which there are many of.
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Privacy no one cares about outside of a few slashdot posters.
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What could go wrong? (Score:4, Interesting)
"The IVL plan calls for New York State to distribute the $55 billion per year in uncollected individual tax credits through a 'public Venmo,' a publicly-administered, non-extractive payment system that would allow recipients to spend freely within the state economy without transaction fees or delays," the report says.
What the hell is the " $55 billion per year in uncollected individual tax credits"?
"Every business and individual residing in New York would be issued a virtual wallet, connected to a state government-controlled master wallet, that could act as a viable alternative to a bank account without the fees of a for-profit bank.
So taxpayers will underwrite the operating expenses of this "no fee" bank?
What is the real problem? Why not simply require banks to offer no-fee bank accounts to lower-income residents? Seems a lot cheaper (for the taxpayer) and easier for the "un-banked" to ease into becoming "banked", AKA customers of actual banks.
Having the state compete with commercial banks seems like a bad idea... Think I'm exaggerating, then why are they planning on giving EVERY BUSINESS and RESIDENT a virtual wallet?
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You missed the part where the State's "virtual bank" doesn't lend or pay interest (because it doesn't lend), but has no fees so it remains attractive. Over time it will pull more and more money from traditional banks, so those banks can lend less and less.
So a state bank, which doesn't lend money, will drive conventional banks out of the lending business? Odd. Apparently you think that a vast majority of lending is because people are paying onerous bank fees, depleting them of saving for major purchases?
It's a government boondoggle, a crypto-currency word-salad that means nothing but sounds like a great idea until you take a look at what is being described.
Why must every New Yorker be issued an account in this service? There are 14 million without Bank Accou
Everything you need to know (Score:2)
"...a state government-controlled master wallet"...
Pretty much says it all.
Government ownership of the means of production (Score:3)
What's not to like about governmental ownership of the means of production — and service-provision? It worked everywhere else it was attempted!
Given the location... (Score:2)
It will consistently run at a loss with taxpayer support & patronage jobs for those who earned them.
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It HAS TO run at a loss - it collects no fees from anyone that uses it's services. One hundred percent of all administration costs will be covered by the NY state tax payer.
Certain groups? (Score:2)
...nor does it address the specific privacy needs for certain groups the lawmakers hope the system will serve, such as people who are undocumented.
I'm pretty sure this whole system is primarily for the undocumented.
And the government will track (Score:2)
This might be a felony. (Score:3)
8 U.S. Code 1324.Bringing in and harboring certain aliens - https://www.law.cornell.edu/us... [cornell.edu]
"(iii)knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law, conceals, harbors, or shields from detection, or attempts to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection, such alien in any place, including any building or any means of transportation;"
So, if NY passed a bill that "addresses the specific privacy needs for [...] people who are undocumented", it would be a criminal conspiracy for which the Sate legislature could be imprisoned for quite some time. Or even executed. No joke there, if an illegal alien kills someone else, whoever harbors them could "be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, fined under title 18, or both." Which, if enforced, would put a number of State and municipal legislators in prison or on death row. Really, any State granting drivers licenses to illegal aliens is in violation. Non-cooperative "sanctuary" policies probably aren't in violation, but when, for example, Mayor DeBlasio announced NYC would provide free healthcare for illegal aliens, he should have immediately been arrested.
If nobody dies, but NY is found to have knowingly or recklessly given these wallets to illegal aliens, the entire "master wallet" (including ALL individual wallets) could be seized. Which probably wouldn't happen, they'd just shut it down.
Translation... (Score:2)
The government can't track cash transactions, so let's get everyone to use electronic payment systems so they can be tracked.
NY soon learn why the unbanked are unbanked (Score:2)
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The Bailey Brothers Building and Loan was not a bank, Mr. Potter owned the Bank.
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They still do, they're called saving accounts (some banks pay interest on checking accounts even). And charging for services isn't predatory. Or are you working on the presumption that people aren't allowed to move their money elsewhere?
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They still do, they're called saving accounts...
And they pay about 1/30th the interest that they did when I was a kid.
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I don't pay any fees with my bank account. Nothing to deposit money. Nothing to withdraw money. Nothing to use my ATM at non-banked owned ATMS. Nothing to pay on-line. Nothing to transfer money to an account at a different bank.
I have multiple electronic deposits going in every month. I have multiple electronic withdrawals every month. I transfer money to other bank accounts every month. I use my ATM card once in a while...maybe once or twice a month. Hell, every once in a while, I'll even write an actual
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