'Don't Even Try Paying With Cash in China' (nytimes.com) 146
"It's hard for those of us who live outside of China to grasp how paying for everything has gone digital in the country," writes the New York Times, introducing a Q&A with technology reporter Ray Zhong (who used to live in Beijing):
Most businesses there, from the fanciest hotels to roadside fruit stands, display a QR code — a type of bar code — that people scan with a smartphone camera to pay with China's dominant digital payment apps, Alipay and WeChat. Paying by app is so much the norm that taxi drivers might curse at you for handing them cash...
Ray: Credit cards were never prevalent in China. The country skipped over a generation of finance and went straight to smartphone-based digital payments.
And the apps are simple for businesses. If a business can get a printout of a QR code, it can get paid by app. They don't need special machines like businesses do to accept credit cards or many mobile payments like Apple Pay, which are essentially digital wallets of bank cards, while Alipay and WeChat are more pure digital payments... China has a stodgy, state-dominated banking system. These apps have allowed small businesses to connect to modern financial infrastructure easily.
I know paying with a credit card isn't tremendously difficult, but making it a fraction easier to buy stuff has enabled different kinds of commerce. You probably wouldn't buy something on Instagram for 50 cents with your credit card, but people in China buy digital books one chapter at a time.
What are the downsides?
Ray: Imagine if powerful tech companies like Google knew everything you've purchased in your entire life. That's one. There are also concerns that Alipay and WeChat are so dominant that no one can compete with them.
Yet towards the end of the interview, the reporter concedes that Alipay and WeChat were "developed for China's specific needs. I'm not convinced similar QR-code-based digital payment systems will catch on elsewhere. Maybe in India."
Ray: Credit cards were never prevalent in China. The country skipped over a generation of finance and went straight to smartphone-based digital payments.
And the apps are simple for businesses. If a business can get a printout of a QR code, it can get paid by app. They don't need special machines like businesses do to accept credit cards or many mobile payments like Apple Pay, which are essentially digital wallets of bank cards, while Alipay and WeChat are more pure digital payments... China has a stodgy, state-dominated banking system. These apps have allowed small businesses to connect to modern financial infrastructure easily.
I know paying with a credit card isn't tremendously difficult, but making it a fraction easier to buy stuff has enabled different kinds of commerce. You probably wouldn't buy something on Instagram for 50 cents with your credit card, but people in China buy digital books one chapter at a time.
What are the downsides?
Ray: Imagine if powerful tech companies like Google knew everything you've purchased in your entire life. That's one. There are also concerns that Alipay and WeChat are so dominant that no one can compete with them.
Yet towards the end of the interview, the reporter concedes that Alipay and WeChat were "developed for China's specific needs. I'm not convinced similar QR-code-based digital payment systems will catch on elsewhere. Maybe in India."
Ya, and ... (Score:5, Insightful)
What are the downsides?
What if something happens to your smartphone, like the battery dies, or it gets really wet, or you drop it or there's no wifi/cell service. My cash and CC still work after all those things. Oh ya, and the privacy of cash and security, delayed payment (float) and semi-privacy of a CC.
Re:Ya, and ... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Can confirm that this is bollocks, you can use cash in China.
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More to the point: are you a Chinese national, or are you just a visitor from the West, there? If you're the latter then you might be being fed a different view of things.
Re:Ya, and ... (Score:5, Informative)
Can confirm that this is bollocks, you can use cash in China.
You can, but not everywhere, and many vendors will not be happy about it.
China is a low-trust society [wikipedia.org]. The way many big retailers work is that you take your items to the checkout, where the attendant totals them up and give you a printed itemization. You then take the paper to a separate cashier to pay. After paying, the cashier stamps your receipt, which you then take back to the checkout counter to pick up your items. It is done this way because the owner doesn't trust the checkers to not pocket some of the cash.
Cashless transactions avoid all this hassle and cut the labor cost for the retailer nearly in half. Many shops no longer even have a cashier booth. If you want to pay cash, the checkout-chick has to go find a manager.
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A cashless society also reduces costs of making and handling cash, along with eliminating a potential disease vector.
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I've never experienced that kind of shop in China, although of course China is huge so there will be massive variations. But from the south west to the east coast I had no trouble paying in cash in shops and taxis and for trains and busses.
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"only criminals use bitcoin" == "only criminals use cash"
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"only criminals use bitcoin" == "only criminals use cash"
Not at all. Cash is the traditional means of exchange of value, and backed by the government. Bitcoin is a made up digital item backed by nobody, where the ones starting it claims it has value - and somehow they magically own a bit of it. It's main use today is either for criminal use or for selling to someone else who believes that "oh, this digital shiny is going to increase in value so I can sell to someone else".
Hardly anyone is using it for normal transactions as you would do with cash, it is very po
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Most countries can do that. If you don't pay your debts, or worse, your taxes, the state can block your bank account until the situation is resolved. It affects all kinds of payment.
Cash isn't affected but against many countries nowadays limit the use of cash for crime-related reasons.
Re:Ya, and ... (Score:5, Insightful)
And the government of your country can block your bank account, suspend your credit cards, and put you in jail. I'm not sure that this is really a problem unique to the CCP.
The big data angle of giving all your data to the payment companies is a downside, but even that isn't really far off what companies like VISA/MasterCard/American Express/Etc already have, and realistically, Facebook/Google have that data on 99% of the population too.
Honestly, I don't think the downsides outweigh the positives on this particular issue. I do note however that they didn't mention what it costs to use this service, is it competitive with other payment processors?
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That sounds like the USA today....
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RENT FREE!
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Or clicking on socially unacceptiible links.
Re:Ya, and ... (Score:5, Interesting)
In China you could get hassled like that just for saying the wrong thing and being overheard saying it.
This is a bit of an exaggeration. If you are a Uyghur, you need to watch what you say. But for everyone else, unless you state your dissent loudly and in public, the CCP really doesn't give a crap. Neighbors spying on neighbors and children rewarded for ratting on their parents is something that ended in 1976 (Xinjiang excepted).
Also, local police have no political role, they are solely for criminal law enforcement. Monitoring political dissent is done by a separate organization sort of comparable to the NSA or FBI. So there is very little fear of the police in China.
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If you are a Uyghur, you need to watch what you say.
Yes, yes, because I'm so sure that they're all terrorists and criminals like the CCP says they are.
What a load of crap.
Also I've said it before and I'll say it again: you don't live in China, you just visit there. Your experience can't be representative of what it's like for a Chinese national. There's been too many stories from Chinese ex-pats for me to believe otherwise. There's too many stories overall, and I refuse to believe that they're ALL just fake news and anti-Chinese propaganda. If it all is th
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As it turns out Uyghurs did commit a series of terrorist acts and in general had a significant secession movement. China's policy in regards to this, is to be strict with a whole racial group which is debatably a poor thing to do. However, it's also poor to fail to understand this is a reaction to social movements within the Uyghur community which is effectively the same thing happening in Hong Kong. This shouldn't be any surprise considering the government is authoritarian. The governments role is to lead
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Re: Ya, and ... (Score:2)
> Yes, yes, because I'm so sure that they're all terrorists and criminals like the CCP says they are.
THAT, is a load of crap.
Re:Ya, and ... (Score:5, Informative)
you don't live in China, you just visit there.
I lived in China for several years. I speak Mandarin. My kids attended public schools in China (they also speak fluent Mandarin). I married a Chinese national (who is now an American citizen). I operated a business and owned a house in Shanghai.
There are many bad things about China. It is an authoritarian country. People there have far fewer rights and legal protections than Americans do. But let's not exaggerate. It isn't N*zi Germany, it isn't Stalinist Russia, and it isn't Maoist China. Chinese people are mostly free to live their lives as they desire. They are free to travel abroad. Unless they openly challenge the government, the ruling party doesn't care what they do or say.
Re: Ya, and ... (Score:2)
Perhaps, but with social credit and such, it is headed towards Stasi controlled Eastern Germany if it's not there yet. And from there onwards. Employing modern digital technology...
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This is historically naive. China used to be far more totalitarian than East Germany and they had a system of social surveillance and repression that was much worse than the Stasi. They aren't moving toward the Stasi, they are moving away.
Re: Ya, and ... (Score:2)
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In China you could get hassled like that just for saying the wrong thing and being overheard saying it.
This is a bit of an exaggeration. If you are a Uyghur, you need to watch what you say. But for everyone else,
First they came for the Trade Unionists...
Anything like this, if it can be used against someone who you disagree with, can (and WILL) be used against YOU eventually.
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"May happe"
No son.
WILL happen.
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The difference is in most other countries you only get your financies frozen like that for actual criminal activity of some sort. In China you could get hassled like that just for saying the wrong thing and being overheard saying it.
Well, saying the wrong thing is an actual criminal activity in China, according to the rules imposed on Hong Kong. At least, that is my reading of the situation.
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Re: Ya, and ... (Score:2)
Iinm....
It doesn't cost anything, for the most part. The profit for wechat comes when money is transferred out of their systems into a "real" bank account. So people tend to limit how often they do that. Businesses can use it in the same way a individuals. Individuals and businesses alike can link their accounts to credit cards or bank accounts, and choose where the money comes from or goes to.
I have my account linked to a credit card and it takes it out immediately just like I use the card - I'm not sure i
Re:Ya, and ... (Score:5, Insightful)
China shills will give me endless shit, say I'm 'racist', and all sorts of shit, claim I'm falling for anti-China propaganda, but that's all bullshit. China has an awful society due to their government and it's disregard for human rights and civil rights, and their insatiable thirst to be as authoritarian as possible. Let's face it, kids: when you have over a billion people in your country and don't care much for pesky little things like 'human rights', lives are cheap. You can lose some and it doesn't hurt your bottom line, in fact it may improve it; you want all your citizens to be good little robots, follow orders unquestioningly, and anyone who doesn't fit the mold perfectly is just a waste of resources, right? Surprised they don't just grind those up into Soylent Green and feed them to everyone else.
Re: Ya, and ... (Score:2)
> claim I'm falling for anti-China propaganda, but that's all bullshit.
It sounds accurate to me, frankly.
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Re:Ya, and ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: Ya, and ... (Score:2)
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Oh the irony.
In all fairness, there aren't any small government candidates left on the national stage. It's a matter of what kind of government interference you want first. Eventually we'll get all of it.
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It's called "trust".
Big tech corporations getting between me and my money? NONE.
Government watching me? LESS THAN NONE.
They do not need to know that I bought a fucking apple on Saturday, October 31st at 3PM.
They don't need to know that I bought a computer.
THEY
DO NOT
NEED
TO
KNOW.
PERIOD!
If I VOLUNTARILY give them that information, good for them.
And I DO.
HOWEVER, I should not be MANDATED to do so.
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Pretty much. It is actually impossible to track "the terrorists" without tracking everyone, and that is the long-term goal.
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Americans.
Distrust of government is the bedrock of our belief system.
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Battery dies: this is a real limitation to this strategy. However, how often does this happen? Pretty much anyone with 2 neurons to rub together starts the day with a full cell phone battery.
Possibility of no wifi or cell service. How many stores nowadays are outside cell service, with the exception of buying guns out of Jim Bob's trunk in the middle of the forest at midnight.
Privacy of cash: this is a real thing
Privacy of credit cards: you really think credit cards give you purchasing pr
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Delayed payment aspect of cc's: it led to massive consumer debt in the US. This is not a good thing.
I have *always* paid off my CC in full every month. Using it gives me a one-month float on my money. I understand that not everyone can do this, but it's not really a problem of the CC, but rather the user.
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The problem is the business model depends on people not paying off their CC, along with other business models that try to sell stuff that people can't afford.
While ultimately it is the fault of the user, it would be nice if the users weren't being pushed so hard and the CC companies considered things like should a minimum wage person have such a high credit limit.
Re: Ya, and ... (Score:2)
If you're doing private sales of guns you don't fo it out in the country; that'll just get you robbed and/or killed. Best place is somewhere public with a large parking lot. Just meet in the back of the lot so people don't get too nervous seeing a couple people grabbing guns. Or, if the person is kinda sketchy, have them meet you in the parking lot of the local police precinct.
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Possibility of no wifi or cell service. How many stores nowadays are outside cell service
Every store if you haven't paid your cell bill, or if your plan doesn't include data.
Or is the Chinese cellular market different enough from the U.S. cellular market that that's not an issue?
Re:Ya, and ... (Score:5, Insightful)
What if something happens ... or there's no wifi/cell service.
Then they use cash like they always did. Don't take the headline too literally, there is still a fallback.
However, I was in the US during a blackout, and many shops closed because they could not even process cash without mains power.
Re: Ya, and ... (Score:2)
Not to derail, but that is why we need distributed battery storage. (Many businesses are located in places where it is illegal to store any significant quantity of generator fuel.)
Re: Ya, and ... (Score:2)
It works for a billion people... no issues. Why would it be different for you?
We Chat payment is quite amazing. Scan the qr and send money. Itâ(TM)s simple. If itâ(TM)s a Resturant you can order items from the menu and pay before you order. No need for someone to take your order.
Send money in a chat. Pay for a cab. Itâ(TM)s all micropayments. Itâ(TM)s better than cash because itâ(TM)s on your phone.
There are lots of downsides .. What happens when your battery is flat, etc. everyone
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Nice when you can switch off opposition so easily (Score:3, Insightful)
And across the world, many governments are keen to follow their example, because what could be better to get rid of that annoying thing that is opposition?
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Let's face it, the totalitarian government of the PRC
A bit of hyperbole there! China has not even tried to be totalitarian since the days of Mao.
That would require far more control and efficiency than the central government possesses. Rules are made, but enforcement levels vary widely, especially outside the major cities.
Beijing does not even know what local authorities are doing , - e.g. they can only guess at the level of debt.
As for the general population, this Economist article says 98% of Chinese pay no income tax. Even if over the threshold, they do
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No it's not hyperbole. It may not be accurate, but it is the true desire of the Xi and the CCP. Technology is allowing the CCP to exert more control over the daily lives of people now than at any time in history, at multiple levels from local right up through the higher levels of government. Whether or not they really can control individuals (they can't), the CCP sure tries, as witnessed by the great firewall of china and the rewriting of history, like the Tianamin Square Massacre. I've talked to chinese
Re: Nice when you can switch off opposition so eas (Score:2)
> but it is the true desire of the Xi and the CCP.
How can you POSSIBLY know that?
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OTOH, how much has having Trump in power emboldened the CCP? Seems like since Trump and his attacking allies more then foes has made a situation where China feels emboldened.
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Let's face it, the totalitarian government of the PRC is of course keen to abolish cash payments because that allows them to remove anyone's financial existence with a flick of a switch
It also cuts down on the ease of bribes and black market transactions.
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Let's face it, the totalitarian government of the PRC
Let's have this discussion again after November 3 + 1 day.
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Yes, Because if we exchange executives, we'll be living in our OWN totalitarian government.
Backed by violent mobs hell bent on *INSERT HERE*
Taxes (Score:4, Insightful)
The bottom 1/4 to 1/2 of China lives by buying, selling and trading without reporting anything to the Chinese government. Now, the government has a record of every transaction. It was generally understood that these people could go about their lives. Once someone starts doing more business and has more than a few employees, the government starts chasing them for taxes. Big companies in China do pay, more or less, the taxes they owe.
It would be easy to go into an area with minorities and start arresting everyone for fairly serious tax evasion. China does a lot of selective law enforcement. It would be hard to argue that these people didn't do anything wrong. They did break the law. Plus, none of these people keep paper receipts or accounts to show their expenses, so it would be very difficult to show correct gains and then calculate the actual taxes owed.
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Take this example [reclaimthenet.org] of Visa blacklisting Andrew Torba (CEO of Gab)'s entire immediate family.
VISA blacklisted them for hate speech. Now, before you got spouting off about free speech, you are free to say whatever you want. You are not free from the consequences of your free speech.
This is no different than advertisers boycotting talk show hosts or other similar people because of the comments they make. And remember, the con artist has openly stated for people to boycott news media becau
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You're free to say whatever you want in north korea, but you're not free from the consequences of getting shot in a backalley.
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VISA blacklisted them for hate speech. Now, before you got spouting off about free speech, you are free to say whatever you want. You are not free from the consequences of your free speech.
Because there is no legal definition of hate speech, any speech the canceler doesn't like can be declared as such. If you enjoy defining "consequences" as being locked out of the whole banking system and going homeless, Chinese style cancelation is coming to us. Watch for it to be tested in California and Oregon first.
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Remember to comfort yourself with this when it comes your turn.
If they have the ability to do this, it WILL eventually be used on you...
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so good at keeping Paypal/Square/Stripe et al from starting up
Remind me again how I settle my Paypal/Square/Stripe accounts. And what will happen to these outfits (or even my local bank) if Visa et all just says "We will no longer do business with you. Because you do business with people we don't like."
MC, Discover, Amex, ACH (Score:2)
Remind me again how I settle my Paypal/Square/Stripe accounts.
Mastercard. Discover. American Express. ACH with the bank routing number and account number.
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Mastercard. Discover. American Express.
They all pretty much stay in lock step with Visa.
ACH
Nope. Banks need Visa/MC, etc. If the credit card companies black list a business and the banks don't go along, the credit card companies will pull their business from that bank.
Ban wepay and alipay (Score:2)
Hold on to your loved ones (Score:2)
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What're you smoking?
Biden is the very definition of a Big Government politician.
50 years in government.
What's he accomplished, other than being a petty time-server?
Oh, and influence peddling.
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Duh (Score:2)
"Imagine if powerful tech companies like Google knew everything you've purchased in your entire life."
In China it's the communist government not the "powerful tech companies". Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg wouldn't be able to play their silly ass games 5 minutes there.
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Unfortunately your point gets dangerously close to being critical of China's government, and smart people don't have to be told not to do that.
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What is your security clearance citizen ?
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what's the danger of being critical of China?
Big tech watching your purchases? (Score:2)
" Imagine if powerful tech companies like Google knew everything you've purchased in your entire life."
>Looks at my Amazon purchase history....
confirming payment (Score:2)
i've always wondered how the merchant (or taxi driver) knows they've actually been paid in case some with a fake app or fake phone pretends to pay. i think he still needs to have equipment like a smartphone with a merchant app,
Developed for China's needs (Score:2)
What, like constant and total surveillance?
Interesting (Score:2)
...so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name...
Cash is all but obsolete in China (Score:5, Informative)
A couple of years ago work sent me to Beijing on a project. I have travelled a lot, but never to mainland China. I had heard about WeChat Pay (and Alipay), and was told it would be best to set that up. I looked into setting up myself with an account.
Getting a WeChat account was easy, but setting it up for WeChat Pay was not. Unless I had a Chinese National ID or a Chinese Bank account (or knew someone with those), setting up WeChat Pay as a foreigner was next to impossible (I understand it may be somewhat easier now). I made the mistake in thinking cash and credit cards would be acceptable.
Practically noone accepted credit cards, not even Western branded places like McDonalds. About the only places they did work was my hotel (pre-paid though work, but credit card for expenses) and airport duty-free. I did expect that to a degree.
What I did not expect is widespread reluctance to deal with cash. People seemed genuinely displeased when I pulled out physical RMB to pay for things. I had been warned in advance about counterfeit cash being a common problem. What I did not expect is that counterfeiting to be so widespread that noone trusted physical cash anymore, and as a result people who wielded cash were met with a similar level of distrust. The only thing that worked in my favour was the fact that I was clearly a foreigner. I expect someone who appears to be native Chinese would have a harder time.
One of the other guys on the project had set up WeChat Pay, and people seemed much nicer to him when he used that.
If I were to head back to China (not likley given I work for another company now), I would absoluetly jump through the hoops of setting up WeChat Pay before going.
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While I never had any issue setting up WeChat Pay or AliPay in China, it is indeed, somewhat oddly, easier to just open a traditional bank account and get a UnionPay card. (Which you get immediately upon opening.)
IMHO the UnionPay card, with contact-less payments (directly or through Apple Pay) is more convenient than dealing with the WeChat or AliPay app on your phone. The downside is that using UnionPay (or cash) means paying the full price. WeChat or AliPay users often enjoy discounted rates.
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What I did not expect is widespread reluctance to deal with cash. People seemed genuinely displeased when I pulled out physical RMB to pay for things.
When a significant portion of customers pay cash, handling cash is just part of everyday business, no problem.
When 99.9% customer pays electronically, the 0.1% who pay cash is a huge PITA. Their business is almost cashless by now, and this one guy (you) insisted on paying cash, now they just hope they have enough spare change for the transaction. And then afterwards they have to either find some way to spend the cash (everyone else also don't want to take it), or take a trip to the bank to deposit it.
Sounds a bit like Scandinavia (Score:5, Informative)
I’ve lived in Denmark for two years now. In that time, I’ve never once seen physical currency.
We have a number of different ways to pay, from the ubiquitous Dankort (a debit card, accepted pretty much everywhere due to the fee structure), Master- and Visa cards (Mastercards are more common for some reason), MobilePay (an app-payment solution originally built by Danske Bank almost a decade ago that enables QR-code or NFC payments, but also allows direct transfers to anyone else in the country via their phone number), Apple/Samsung pay (somewhat less common, but certainly used frequently), and specialist apps (for example, I use MenuPay, which is offered to business customers and enables their staff who pay via app at participating restaurants to get 10-30% discounts).
Non-payment infrastructure is also in place, such as Storbox - a business signs up, a customer registers their card, and all receipts between parties that have registered are automatically sent electronically instead of printed.
There’s a huge degree of digitalization in this society, and it works amazingly well.
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It's the opposite here in Switzerland. Sure, there's the Twint QR code/phone number system, as well as Apple Pay, credit cards, and debit cards, but cash is king. No one will bat an eye if you go buy a 3CHF loaf of bread and hand them a 100CHF bill. Gas stations have a little sticker that says they won't accept 1000CHF bills or higher, but that's about it. And it's more likely you'll find a cash-only place than a no-cash-accepted place (although both are rare-- almost everyplace takes everything). (For refe
Utter nonsense (Score:3)
I pay cabbies in Beijing with cash all the time. It's never a problem. Why would it be? Cash payments are much more likely to involve a tip.
That said, if you exclusively pays with 100 RMB bills and then demand exact change, yes, you may, occasionally, be cursed at. While tipping is not the norm in China, nickel-and-diming a cabby after you pull out your wad of 100 bills is definitely considered an asshole move.
Cards are more hygienic (Score:2)
Here in the People's Republic of Birmingham, most shops prefer payment by card, because it reduces the risk of transferring the coronavirus. Smaller shops have a problem, I think, because they get charged for card transactions. However, all shops are glad of any trade they can get, these days, so everywhere does contactless card for small payments. I bought a card for paying bus fares, so I do not need cash for that any more. It must be getting on for two months since I got any cash out. The only reason I g
Similar in Sweden (Score:2)
This is not just what you bought (Score:2)
This sort of system doesn't just tell the government what you bought. It tells them when you bought it, and therefore generally where you were when. That can tell them who you were near. (Did you both pay and leave at about the same time?)
I suspect that doesn't usually make cut and dried "disappear that guy" evidence, but it's an easy, mechanizable way to make a short list of people to spy on harder. Heck, you can give your spies a list of places and times of the subjects movements for the past month be
So what? (Score:2)
Ray: Imagine if powerful tech companies like Google knew everything you've purchased in your entire life. That's one.
That's one idiotic and paranoid argument, and that's it.
A hundred years ago did the local grocer also know what each person in their neighbourhood bought and he was probably picking his nose moments before he touched the bread. Nobody cared back then what he knows.
Today's businesses don't care half as much about an individual as one may hope for. They care for themselves and how they appear in public, but they don't go further than this. Goods are still being traded in volumes and there is no time for indiv
Imagine if powerful tech companies like Google (Score:2)
Or, perhaps, the government of Fascist China? I think that might be more of an issue than Google.
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How is the #1 "downside" not "because everything you purchase gets factored into the Chinese Social Credit Score system?" Instead they worry about fucking Google?
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I thought this was an article about how shitty China is.