Wealthy People Are Renouncing American Citizenship 210
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Axios: The number of Americans who renounced their citizenship in favor of a foreign country hit an all-time high in 2020: 6,707, a 237% increase over 2019. While the numbers are down this year, that's probably because many U.S. embassies and consulates remain closed for COVID-19, and taking this grave step requires taking an oath in front of a State Department officer. The people who flee tend to be ultra-wealthy, and many of them are seeking to reduce their tax burden. New tax and estate measures proposed by the Biden administration could, if implemented, accelerate this trend.
The IRS publishes a quarterly list of the names of people who have renounced their citizenship or given up their green cards, but it only includes people with global assets over $2 million. The numbers started swelling in 2010, when Congress passed the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, or FATCA, which increased reporting requirements and penalties for expats. But the Wall Street Journal discovered that the lists aren't up to date: A lot of people who were reported to have renounced citizenship in 2020 actually did so years earlier. "Only the U.S. and Eritrea tax people based on citizenship rather than residency," notes Axios. "For most countries, if you are a citizen but don't reside there, you aren't taxed in that country."
The IRS publishes a quarterly list of the names of people who have renounced their citizenship or given up their green cards, but it only includes people with global assets over $2 million. The numbers started swelling in 2010, when Congress passed the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, or FATCA, which increased reporting requirements and penalties for expats. But the Wall Street Journal discovered that the lists aren't up to date: A lot of people who were reported to have renounced citizenship in 2020 actually did so years earlier. "Only the U.S. and Eritrea tax people based on citizenship rather than residency," notes Axios. "For most countries, if you are a citizen but don't reside there, you aren't taxed in that country."
Exit tax (Score:5, Insightful)
The US imposes an "exit tax" on net worth above $2M.
If you have high earning potential, it is best to renounce your US citizenship before you earn your money rather than after.
U.S. Expatriation Tax [wikipedia.org]
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The US imposes an "exit tax" on net worth above $2M.
Not only that but you could become a target or pawn for the NSA or CIA. If you aren't a US citizen then you are fair game.
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And if you are. [wikipedia.org]
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2001-2007
You link is for "and if you were," not "and if you are."
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At this point you may as well just wear a t-shirt that says: "fuck it, I'm socialist, give me handouts".
OK... but only if you send it in the mail to me for free. ;)
Re:Exit tax (Score:5, Insightful)
The US imposes an "exit tax" on net worth above $2M.
It's a sham that puts Immigrants to the US in a superior position to leave and avoid the tax and discriminates against the US-Born and levels against the upper middle class who may have a few million to their name after considering their primary residence.
Particularly... People who immigrated to the US can entirely avoid the exit tax once they have lived outside of the US for more than 7 of the past 15 years; It applies to US Born Citizens and also Long term residents of 8 of the past 15 years, Anyone else like Naturalized citizens who may have become Uber-wealthy after 30 years in the US and then moved out of the US for 7 years are exempt from the exit tax.
The Ultrawealthy with appropriate planning avoid or reduce it so much that the tax will not be what it sounds like on paper. The tax is a tax on the gain from personal holdings - the Ultrawealthy are capable of becoming a beneficiary of an offshore Trusts and LLCs, or specifically,
Forming a contract where payment is made expecting future income but there is not an owned discernible asset of value redeemable for more than what it's paid for.
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So what if the money you're paid never actually enters the US?
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So what if the money you're paid never actually enters the US?
Therein lies the rub. If the IRS can prove you had overseas earnings, they can go back and seize them. Very wealthy people can set up overseas ownership structures to conceal such ownership. But since they have to be set up before the income starts to accumulate, that can be clear evidence of intent to commit tax evasion.
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Seize them? In a foreign country?
What kind of right does the US has over stuff that is not in the US and never transited though the US?
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Seize them? In a foreign country?
What kind of right does the US has over stuff that is not in the US and never transited though the US?
It is a basic principle of a society based on democratic principles that the laws we create for ourselves apply to all of us who are citizens. That's where the right comes from - we gave it to ourselves.
If you don't like it, leave and renounce your citizenship. The $2350 fee is far less than what the IRS would take every year.
Setting aside my theoretical bullshit, taxing foreign income isn't really about making some factory worker in Canada pay US taxes because he was born here.
It is about multi-multi- mil
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This article has glossed over one of the other related annoyances of having US citizenship overseas. Many smaller banks have no desire whatsoever to put up with the paperwork they have to file for a US citizen account holder, so finding a bank that will take you as a customer is a PITA.
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isn't this the reason why you see a lot of people moving money win crypto, art, or other medium that aren't heavily regulated or watched so closely? This isn't too far off from wealthy Chinese moving money out of China.
another way I've heard of is setting up a foreign entity, that then sues you, as legal settlements aren't subject to tax in a lot of places, and can get around this sort of thing.
Re: Exit tax (Score:2)
The US has the best socialist ideas sometimes.
Re:Take the property (Score:5, Informative)
That's a simplistic view that is wrong for a lot of people. There are many many dual citizens in Canada, for example, for many reasons including being born in the US when parents were at school. The IRS has claim on all these people, even some who have never lived in the US and never made any money in the US. Many of the people renouncing are people in this category. I myself am in that category. Running a business in Canada (nothing to do with the United States in any way) is problematic when the IRS demands I file and can levy taxes on me. Some taxes are covered by tax treaties, eliminated some of the double taxation. But in other areas like inheritance, even though it has nothing to do with the United Sates, the IRS wants its share. I do not plan to live in the US. Hence renunciation is fairly critical to do for the future of my business. If the law were changed to be in line with all other jurisdictions that only tax citizens who live in the country and make money there, this would be a non-issue for me and my US citizenship would not be a liability. Dual citizens can and do just ignore all this, but visiting the united states could be problematic. Furthermore the IRS requires Canadian banks in Canada to report to them the bank account balances and information of any customer who is a dual citizen. The way they enforce this is by making that a requirement for banks who wish to participate in American stock and bond markets.
So no, it's not the simple tax dodging that you make it out to be.
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Quite right. There is a significant number of *middle class* former dual Canada-US citizens living in Canada who renounced their US citizenship.
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Holy crap. I never knew having American citizenship could be such a huge liability!
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Then theres people like
Re:Did you read the article (Score:4, Interesting)
Then theres people like Thiel. Screw that guy. He made hispile here and then bugs out because he don wanna pay his fair share. Fine.
You are talking about that Thiel who said “I am proud to be gay. I am proud to be a Republican. But most of all, I am proud to be an American.” I guess proud of being an American as it's convenient.
Btw, he was born in Germany, so whatever nationality he has now, it's his third one.
Above a certain amount of money, you can change your nationality like your underwear. It's no longer your identity but becomes a commodity that goes to the highest bidder. (actually: lowest bidder when it comes to taxes to be exact)
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The one individual they mention is Eric Schmidt. Unlike Thiel, Schmidt has been very active in the Democratic Party, almost had a cabinet post under Obama, worked with Hillary's campaign, worked with Biden's campaign (Biden wanted him to run a tech task force) and now that his party is in charge again and looking to raise taxes, which he supports, he is leaving so he doesn't h
Re: Did you read the article (Score:4, Informative)
Because if you grew up in a foreign country and find out about the US's insane tax regime, you need to find a few grand to find an accountant that can get you up to date with the IRS, then pay the US$2350 fee at the consulate to actually renounce your citizenship, whenever you can manage a booking.
Stuck in there is the shitshow that is tyring to get your SSN if you're all grown up, never lived in the states after you were a toddler, etc. I ended up having to fecking *fly to the phillipenes* (closest social security office) to get mine, after around 5 attempts at the local consulate (each with a multimonth round trip time)
So.. yeah. I'd love to have given up my citizenship earlier, but they really don't make it easy, either.
And if you're too poor? Hah. Screw you harder then. We hates them poor people.
(You can do it without all the IRS stuff, but they could still come after you, and it would make visiting or sending gifts to family members there a pain in the ass, to say the least)
Or.. the US could follow the global model and not be an entitled shit.
Re: Did you read the article (Score:2)
Re:Did you read the article (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes I read the article. Especially the part about Biden changing the taxation around inheritance which makes my position in my business even more precarious because it's a family business entering it's 4th generation. Even though I don't live in the United States, tax law in the US does not make any distinction whether this inheritance estate transfer occurs in the US or abroad.
If a person brings his wealth into the US (in any form), then yes I agree it should be taxed. But taxing wealth abroad is problematic. Although not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, sitting as a dual citizen (living in Canada and never planning to live in the US) involved in business I completely understand where many of these wealthy folk are coming from and why they would renounce. I have no interest in giving the IRS taxes on my Canadian business.
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If a person brings his wealth into the US (in any form), then yes I agree it should be taxed. But taxing wealth abroad is problematic. Although not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, sitting as a dual citizen (living in Canada and never planning to live in the US) involved in business I completely understand where many of these wealthy folk are coming from and why they would renounce. I have no interest in giving the IRS taxes on my Canadian business.
I feel the need to be the devil's advocate here. The reason the US collects taxes for income earned outside of the country was the abundance of offshore bank accounts. Ending "Swiss" bank accounts (most were actually in the Cayman Islands IIRC) had a large amount of political support, and that's how we ended up where we are.
Trying to collect taxes on the super wealthy ended up causing huge problems for average people.
Re:Did you read the article (Score:5, Insightful)
My three kids were born in the US. They never set foot on US soil since they were 3. They are American because there was no other choice. They will soon start to earn their own income, as they are 18, 18 and 20. Please explain to me why a portion of their revenue, financial income and inheritance should go towards the IRS?
Re:Did you read the article (Score:4, Informative)
1. The Foreign Earned Income Exclusion [irs.gov] allows them to blanket exclude foreign earned income from abroad ($108,700 for the 2021 tax year, it increases every year.) from US federal income tax.
2. If you make more than that, you can exclude federal/provincial/local income taxes paid abroad from your US income tax bracket. For example, if you (by brackets) owed the US $5,000 in income tax federally, and you paid $7000 to Canadian federal + provincial - you could exclude the $7,000 of taxes paid to Canadian federal/provincial, which would wipe out all income owned in the US. (At least when I worked in Quebec, the income tax paid to Canada federal + Quebec was higher than my US federal income tax obligations.)
Most US expats working abroad don't end up owing anything unless they have $$$$, it's just the inconvenience of having to file US tax forms.
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Ways that an USC in Canada can be taxed, even with foreign tax credits and/or the FEIE, which doesn't apply to passive income.
- Gains above $250K USD on the sale of your principal residence are taxed. This is not taxed in Canada. (FWIW, we can't deduct mortgage interest in Canada).
- Gains in the sale of (shares in) a qualified small business are fully taxed ($800K CAD exclusion is not recognized)
- Gains in a Canadian mutual fund held outside of a RRSP are hideously taxed because they are considered PFICs (P
It is the good-riddance department (Score:2)
Or even the headline? These are people who had dual citizenship and gave it up because they didn't want to pay taxes. They want to enjoy the benefits of US citizenship without paying for it. F*** them. I pay taxes so that my country is defended by a military, so the schools create an educated population and so that I have roads to drive on. Then along time these bastards, wait for an economic crash like 2008 to buy up what little property I've managed to accumulate on the cheap, and then make me pay for the country they want to live in. They're still coming in and out of the United States. They're just not paying taxes to do it. You can't have Nations without citizens. You'll end up with nothing but parasites and leeches. The center will not hold.
Because I already hit submit, why should we have to go begging them to come back like freaking peasants. We're the Americans not them. We shouldn't have to count out of them and say pretty please here's some more free money don't go. When did Americans become such a bunch of spineless wimps? You think my grandfather would have put up with this shit?
Both parts requoted against troll censor mods. But my thunder was apparently stolen by the editor with the power to create the appropriate department.
Having said that, I wouldn't be averse to some sort of special taxes targeting such people. At a minimum, anything they want to buy from America needs special taxation for the infrastructure not paid for? And there are special loyalty premiums at stores, so they deserve special disloyalty premiums, too. Plus a special category of you're-not-welcome visa with a
Re: Take the property (Score:2)
No, it is about not owing taxes at all, not avoiding them.
Obviously if you leave the US and renounce citizenship, they have to stop taxing you.
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If you renounce US citizenship you have to get another one, that will come with its own taxes. So you can't go "not owing tax at all". But you'll owe less to a different country. Cause, you know, there's more countries out there.
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You can go home but you don't get to take the ball with you.
That depends on what 'the ball' is.
I had a contract to develop a turbo encabulator for the Pentagon. Now that I'm retired, many countries are offering me vast sums of wealth to immigrate there and do the same work for them.
Re: Take the property (Score:4, Interesting)
Then you don't get to own American.
While it would be possible to do that it's not what the law says. Some European countries had this in place long ago (e.g. Italy), but dumped it.
In any case it would be a doubles edged sword, as businesses wouls be affected, too, and it would serve as an investment deterrent.
It's a national security issue at that point.
That's BS.
You're desperately looking for a cheap win-argument cheap root password. But just because your own government gives you this BS excuse every time they break the law and skin you without proper arguments (i.e. due process) doesn't mean you get to win as much as a flower pot using it in a real debate.
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You can go home but you don't get to take the ball with you. Don't wanna be American? Then you don't get to own American. It's a national security issue at that point.
The only thing more retarded than nationalism as an idea for keeping others out, is nationalism as an idea for keeping people in.
You don't own American. You own yours, and you're free to move wherever you want with it. The idea of this being "national security" just looks like you're throwing words into a comment box and hoping they'll arrange themselves into something which looks sensical. It didn't work.
Re: Take the property (Score:2)
It's funny how wealth is only a national security issue once it goes foreign, as if domestic wealth always has the best interest of US citizens at heart.
Re: Take the property (Score:2)
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In your view, only bona fide US persons should be allowed to own any US assets? Now there's a novel proposal! How about holding US dollars? In your enlightened opinion, would it be OK for non-US nationals to have a Benji in their wallet?
By the way, renouncing US citizenship places the victim on a "naughty list". After suffering through the expense and humiliation of this onerous process, and paying off foreign (I mean, US) agents, he is then treated worse than any non-US natio
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You can go home but you don't get to take the ball with you. Don't wanna be American? Then you don't get to own American. It's a national security issue at that point.
Interestingly, that's the same policy Hitler imposed on Jews leaving Germany. imagine that!
Re: Take the property (Score:2, Troll)
Re:Exit tax (Score:5, Informative)
That's not correct in my experience. For most dual citizens in Canada who renounce their US citizenship, it's just a matter of paying a fairly large fee at the consulate (somewhere around $2000 USD now), filing the right forms, visiting the consulate, swearing the truthfulness of the information, etc. And of course making sure income tax filings are up to date. Any taxes not covered by the tax treaty must be paid to the IRS. What's a bit strange is that US citizenship consists of two parts, and the consulate only deals with one part. The assumption is that after all the consular work is done, the IRS is notified and cancels you in their system, but there's no guarantee they will give you up. Although in practice I've never heard of it happening. So theoretically you could be a US citizen according to the IRS but not according to the State Department. If that ever happened, I'm sure the IRS would correct that fairly quickly, but who knows.
By the way it's not just citizens living abroad the IRS has claim over. Green card holders must also file even when they no longer live in the US. And potentially pay income taxes on their foreign income. It's really a strange system.
Sometimes it really screws over people who've never lived in the US and never will. For example, this disabled person who inherited US citizenship: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada... [www.cbc.ca]
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I read an article in a British accountancy magazine about other "accidental americans", some of who got into quite a lot of trouble with US authorities. Some never realised they were US citizens until the IRS prosecutd them.
Boris Johnson was a dual national (born in the US to British parents) and renounced his US citizenship AFTER having to pay US tax on property he inherited in the UK.
Yes, Tom Barrack wished... (Score:2, Funny)
Non-resident taxes (Score:3, Insightful)
The US is almost unique in requiring non-resident citizens to pay income tax on their earnings (above a threshold of about $110,000). There are certain other provisions for non-residents to avoid double taxation, but it all gets pretty complex and you can understand why some wealthy Americans who can take out citizenship in their country of residence decide that it's easier to just renounce their US citizenship.
Re:Non-resident taxes (Score:5, Informative)
Complexity is such that it hits people who never were US citizens or held permanent residence there. I literally have to sign a document stating that "I have no US tax liabilities" with all my banks for example.
It's quite ridiculous how much of an overreach US has on this issue.
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Yeah I have to jump through a lot of hoops because of this shit too.
I transferred some of my employer's shares to my personal brokerage account, which is EU based, but uses Interactive Brokers. I thought it was going through the Irish subsidiary, but the employer's account thinks otherwise and basically I can't confirm that I have "no US tax liabilities" because it sees the IBKR account. Is this correct? Will I be committing fraud if I just remove the account linkage? Will I go to joil next time I visit my
Paperwork worse than Tax (Score:4, Insightful)
The US is almost unique in requiring non-resident citizens to pay income tax on their earnings (above a threshold of about $110,000).
That's the really stupid thing about this though they do not really require them to pay tax since any foreign tax you pay on your income counts as a tax credit - even if the income is unearned - and the US generally has lower tax rates than most other western countries.
So really the US just requires its citizens living abroad to fill in mountains of complex paperwork for little to no tax revenue. Worse, it threatens you with massive fines and imprisonment if you get anything wrong while at the same time providing zero advice on how non-US financial matters translate into the US system leaving to make an honest attempt and hope that will suffice. However, there are also some carefully placed traps e.g. any poor US citizen who innocently purchases a Canadian ETF or mutual fund while living in Canada will trigger a small avalanche of forms plus penalty taxes - and probably even more penalty taxes if they do not notice the trap until years later.
So the "tax" US citizens pay is more one of stress and time worrying and figuring out how to do all the stupid paperwork and avoiding prison or fines. I would guess this is easier for those with $2M+ to pay an accountant to just fill it all in for them which is why you do not see more giving up their citizenship. What I would be interested to see is the statistics for those with under $2M in wealth since those are the ones really being hit by this nightmare.
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The paperwork is a mess. I can't be the treasurer of any of my clubs because that would require filling out a form providing the IRS details of those clubs since some of them sometimes have more than the equivalent of US$10,000 in a bank account. Joint businesses have the same threshold so if I loan a friend some cash for their business, it may need to be reported to the IRS. That gets very odd because if the business uses either imported products or exports another set of rules come inplay and those rule
Re:Non-resident taxes (Score:5, Insightful)
The US is almost unique in requiring non-resident citizens to pay income tax on their earnings.
After independence, the US suddenly cared a lot less about that no taxation without representation ideal.
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Non-residents still get other benefits like Uncle Sugar assisting them via the local embassy when they do stupid shit. There are far greater benefits to US citizenship than a useless vote.
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Re:Non-resident taxes (Score:4, Interesting)
I believe you would vote based on wherever you lived when you were 1, before you moved to Ireland.
It's a little more complicated if you're a citizen who has never resided in the US. Most, but not all, states will allow you to vote if it's where your parents most recently resided. Link. [fvap.gov]
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The threshold (it's actually a deduction) only applies to earned income.
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Yes, but that is only half the story.
As others have said ther eare two other things to go with this. This is based on what is happening to a good mate of mine.
1 - The reporting requirements. Just to prove he's not earning more than that amount, a good mate of mine has a MOUNTAIN of paperwork to be sent to the IRS. As others have mentioned, there is also a magic limit of $10,000 at any one instant (not a sustained period, like the moment he got paid) but in combined bank accounts (with wife) that also needs
Even renouncing citizenship is unfair in the US (Score:2)
In case you didn't know, renouncing one's citizenship costs you more in the US than everywhere else in the world [nomadcapitalist.com] - namely a flat fee of $2350. Meaning, as always, if you're not wealthy and you want to do what rich people do to avoid paying taxes, it costs you a lot more comparatively.
Plus 20% of everything you own, plus ten years (Score:4, Informative)
$2,350, plus 20% of everything you own. That's 877A.
If you own a company perhaps, or just a 401K, the US government acts as if you sold all of of it on the day you leave the US, and taxes you 20% of the value.
They can continue to tax your income from the business or whatever for 10 years after you leave.
The US hates successful people now.
Hasta La Vista, baby. (Score:2)
Top 10 Easiest Countries Americans can immigrate to. [youtu.be]
Re:Hasta La Vista, baby. (Score:4, Informative)
Immigration and gaining citizenship are completely different things though. I'm planning on moving out of the United States as soon as I retire (which is about 10 years away), but I damned sure won't be renouncing my citizenship.
Being a US citizen just has too many advantages compared to a lot of countries in the world. That's why for this its mostly rich people doing it: they can afford to gain citizenship in another country with similar or better advantages (eg, Japan, Germany, Sweden, etc). Middle class people leaving the US are typically seeking places with cheaper costs of living that typically have less valuable passports (and poor people generally aren't leaving period - they simply can't afford it).
If I were rich I would go (Score:2, Interesting)
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We have the best government money can buy,
What's the problem?
[sarcasm]
Re:If I were rich I would go (Score:5, Funny)
Unchecked capitalism is just as destructive to a country as communism
Hence the old Soviet satirical comment: "Capitalism is the exploitation of man by man; Communism is the exact opposite."
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Moving between two equal opportunities is not a zero cost ordeal. The OP is 100% correct. The USA provides nothing you can't get in many other places in the world, or even better. Heck having been around the world and lived in more countries than I can count on my appendages, this is true in some form or another of any civilised country.
However I currently live in a country which costs me more to live in and results in a lower net wealth than another I could potentially choose. This does not mean I'm better
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If you're rich, you're probably going to US for medical treatment, not leaving it. It's expensive, but you can get the latest and greatest treatment, rather than whatever public system has cleared you to have.
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Devil of your study is in its details. Every treatment where you want newest, most advanced treatment to have improved chance of survival (for example breast and colon cancers), US leads.
Every treatment where excellence of basic care is key, and/or lifestyle is more important (maternal mortality, childhood diseases), they lose.
Conclusion: your study isn't measuring treatment quality for top tier medicine. It's measuring health outcome differences in basic care and typical lifestyles of each nation and how m
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Well, here is an article about a small hospital in northern Germany that has patients from all over the world, including the US:
https://www.weser-kurier.de/br... [weser-kurier.de]
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Germany, Austria and Switzerland have a niche industry where there's a small handful of specific cancer treatments that are top of the world. Russia has a specific group of drug weaning treatments that are also top of the world.
For pretty much everything else, you go to US for top of the world treatment. There may be a handful of other exceptions, as well as politically sensitive patients who go to Swiss clinics for treatment because travelling to US is either too risky or simply impossible.
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True for specific few cancer treatmets, for which top tier is in Austria, Switzerland and Germany. You also forgot best care for certain drug weaning, which is in Russia.
But for overwhelming majority of top treatment, US remains the place to go.
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Let me introduce you to the concept called insurance. Medical insurance, Home Owners In
Too small, not wealthy (Score:5, Informative)
Look, if you do not have $2 million, then you are NOT wealthy. Even if you are making a million a year.
If you pay no tax, and withdraw 4% of your account (standard suggestion for the wealthy) every year, you need at least $3 million a year to have a salary of $120,000.
The IRS list contains 733 people, not 6k+
That is still a lot of money, if not a lot of people. It has to be more than $1.4 billion, and is probably much more than $14 billion.
But the problem is not severe and never has been.
US Citizen has a lot of advantages, especially for the wealthy. Tons of countries love to invite people in, but they do NOT respect them, just the money. If you are fleeing to avoid taxes, you are NOT going to Canada, Western Europe, Australia, etc.
Instead we are 3 kinds of places:
1) Muslim countries, like the United Arab Emirate
2) War torn places like Somalia
3) Small high end luxury countries like Bermuda that cater to the wealthy at a high price. These want your money and everything is expensive.
Re:Too small, not wealthy (Score:4, Interesting)
The taxes are pretty much the same across income brackets between the US and the EU, according to family and acquaintances who live and travel both ways. The real question is "What are you getting for those taxes?"
IMHO Germany, Netherlands, and the Nordic countries are the best as far as actually having a good system for taking care of people. But of course, I am biased by my own ancestry.
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Huh? No not at all. The taxes are wildly different. What is equal is the total cost of living. I pay taxes through the nose. On the flip side when I tore my Iliacus it cost me 0 EUR. When my kids go to school it will cost them 0 EUR. My wife is doing a masters degree. Okay that costs money. 2,000EUR. The end result after expenses is very similar, but this is all funded largely from taxes which are wildly different between the USA and EU when you calculate to the take home pay.
In Europe the "tax" ultimately
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Besides, nice cherry picking with the 100,000 Euro, try a closer to average wage of US$50,000 (around GBP 36,000) and you'll find the difference is a few grand at the very best, and as mentioned, we don't have to pay for health insurance no do I need to worry about starving if I lose my job.
In the US, $118,000
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I'll just add that if you're a billionaire and renouncing your US citizenship to avoid paying US taxes, what's your problem? How much frelling money do you frakking need? /rant
Expats (Score:5, Interesting)
Puerto Rico
Low cost of living. You can import nearly anything you could want, and it's easy as supply chains/shipping networks piggyback on the US's, as import rules are similar, if not exactly the same. *Very* low taxes. A short plane or boat ride to a whole bunch of other Caribbean islands. A lot of US expats are landing there.
Re:Expats (Score:5, Informative)
Puerto Rico is US territory. If you're an American living there, you're not an expat.
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The problem doesn't just impact the rich or super rich. It impacts *everyone*. My three kids were born on US soil. They are de facto American. I've had to declare their revenue for 10 years now. Their revenue is zero for now but that's about to change. It already cost us 7.5k€ in lawyers to make sense of where to declare what as the system in France is quite different from the US.
Soon they'll start working and the problem is going to be really important.
Please explain to me what my kids are getting in
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I guess the disconnect for me is whether you or your kids are only US citizens, not dual citizens with France and thus "stuck" dealing with US tax system because you have no other citizenship.
If you and they are citizens of France and don't have any reason beyond some kind of tourism impulse to go to the US, what happens if you just ignore US tax law? Does the US come after you in France for unpaid taxes? In other words, what's the risk/problem here?
I can see where it would matter if your kids only had US
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land of the free* (Score:2)
For most countries, if you are a citizen but don't reside there, you aren't taxed in that country Talk about pwnage lol
why bother leaving? (Score:4, Insightful)
An overview (Score:4, Informative)
This site [expatnetwork.com] gives a broad overview of what and how to renounce your U.S. citizenship. In short, you pay a fee ($2,350) AND an expatriation tax which is based on your assets the day before you renounce, with the first $699,000 being tax free. You also should have a passport from another country or you could be stateless.
Taxing non-residents (Score:2)
The US policy of taxing non-resident citizens means those citizens pay US taxes without getting any benefits for it. It's not exactly taxation without representation, but it's something similar. Wasn't there a revolution about that?
Of course, expat Americans have no real power, and stopping taxing non-resident citizens likely wouldn't be a popular move at home, so they are screwed.
I am so glad I'm not a US citizen. My parents moved to the US when I was an infant, but luckily they saw the light and le
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Another important benefit is that they can come back anytime
Whoopee. That's a basic responsibility of any government to its citizens.
If they're in another country, all infrastructure, social, medical, law enforcement, etc. is provided there.
Yes. Because they pay taxes there . Almost all countries tax residents. The US is one of a few (maybe only two?) that are greedy enough to tax both residents and non-resident citizens. It's called double taxation.
Not everyone has a real choice (Score:5, Informative)
Some countries do not allow dual citizenship [insider.com]. If you want to live there and be a citizen there you have no choice but to give up US citizenship.
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Indeed it's complex. The list of countries are far larger than just the ones mentioned in your link, but critically that information in the link also tells only part of the story. E.g. in Europe many countries do not allow dual citizenship, but all of them are subject to an overriding EU law (including the Netherlands) which states you can keep dual citizenship if you are financially disadvantaged due to your status.
I for one am a dual citizen of a country where where it is not allowed to be a dual citizen
Clearly, we should tax the poor more (Score:2, Funny)
The poor are less able to trade their US citizenship for foreign citizenship, so it is harder to avoid US taxes.
Talk of a wealth tax may have spooked people (Score:2)
Escape jet (Score:2)
Americans are waking up and realizing how fucked over they got by the 1%. They are getting grouchier and the rich ones don't want to wait until the pitchforks and torches are visible outside the big iron gates.
FATCA will fuck you (Score:2)
The most fundamental of freedoms is the freedom to choose one’s own government. The US government, however, seems not to understand the concept of competition. You see, unlike the old USSR, the US does not deny this right. The US government is smarter than that, choosing instead to allow its valued citizens to migrate to other countries, and simply imposing US
Re:Sick in the head (Score:4, Informative)
you don't have $2M in retirement funds? better start saving or your old age will be in poverty. That's just middle class assets if you're near 60.
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These extraordinarily rich people are sitting on piles of disposable cash and stock that surpasses what the rest of the country will ever hold combined!
False. Most wealth in the US is held in retirement accounts and pension funds. For example, CALPERS - the California teacher's pension fund - is by itself worth about as much as most of America's billionaires combined.
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They don't lose any protections. These agencies Don't protect individuals. Their sworn duty is to serve the public - which includes everyone here: both citizens and guests, Law enforcement have to protect even those of the public who are unauthorized visitors who are present illegally.
Also, you can bet those wealthy individuals spend some money on fortifying their personal security, often hire personal bodyguards, etc.
Presumptively if they're renouncing citizenship they live in a different country al
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And you can bet that, as wealthy people, their chosen country of residence will do what it can to provide them with proper security.
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"The IRS publishes a quarterly list of the names of people who have renounced their citizenship or given up their green cards, but it only includes people with global assets over $2 million."
They do, that's kind of the whole point of the article.
Come on, it's in the summary. You don't even have to click through to an article.
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These are high net worth individuals, who just lost the protection of FBI and other American law enforcement agencies. Lots of people would be interested in providing them with "security".
The names of renunciants are published quarterly.
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It's a mistake to assume that rich = Republicans. There's a ton of people from all income brackets in both parties. Rich Republicans tend to have fortunes built on oil, real estate, construction, etc. Rich Democrats tend to have fortunes from technology, entertainment, media, etc.
And obviously there are some exceptions to those rules too, but trust me there are plenty of rich people on both sides.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: This is why (Score:2)
Nah, just do property tax with exemption for owned (ie. unencumbred except for a mortgage) homes and farms up to a given value limit.
Land is impossible to hide, everything else can be gamed.
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snau snau snau
You have to actually listen to people in good faith to know what they say.
Republicans: *whining about the taxes*
Democrats: "Byeiiee"
Re: (Score:3)
It's quite simple: Renunciations began skyrocketing in 2013 after FATCA came into effect in 2010. FATCA places a pretty heavy reporting burden about foreign bank accounts on US citizens and banks who have US citizens as customers. This, in turn, made it difficult for US citizens to get or keep bank and brokerage accounts outside of the US. There was a three-year lag time because US citizens overseas first had to figure all of this out, then had to go through all of the paperwork to renounce, and renunciatio