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Education

40% Of America's Schools Have Now Dropped Their SAT/ACT Testing Requirement (washingtonpost.com) 224

"A record number" of U.S. schools are now accepting nearly all of their students without requiring an SAT or ACT test score, reports the Washington Post: Robert A. Schaeffer, public education director of FairTest, which opposes the misuse of standardized tests, said the past year has seen the "fastest growth spurt ever" of schools ending the SAT/ACT test score as an admission requirement. Over the summer, more than one school a week announced the change. Nearly 50 accredited colleges and universities that award bachelor's degrees announced from September 2018 to September 2019 that they were dropping the admissions requirement for an SAT or ACT score, FairTest said. That brings the number of accredited schools to have done so to 1,050 -- about 40 percent of the total, the nonprofit said.

While the test-optional list has some schools with specific missions -- there are religious colleges, music and art conservatories, nursing schools -- it also includes more than half of the top 100 liberal arts colleges on the U.S. News & World Report list, FairTest said. Also on the list are the majority of colleges and universities in Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, the District of Columbia and the six New England states...

Research has consistently shown that ACT and SAT scores are strongly linked to family income, mother's education level and race... The University of Chicago, which abandoned the requirement last year, reported in July that its decision, along with an increase in financial aid and outreach, led to a 20 percent increase in first-generation, low-income and rural students and veterans to commit to the school.

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40% Of America's Schools Have Now Dropped Their SAT/ACT Testing Requirement

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  • by oldgraybeard ( 2939809 ) on Sunday October 20, 2019 @11:58PM (#59329648)
    the schools seeing the game is getting close to the end. Now they will accept any candidates who are able and willing to apply for a government school loan.

    In return for this monetary investment in the school the school will help them get a degree in something that "might" enable the student to pay the loans back.
    So the risk is all on the student, the school is 100% cashed out and laughing all the way to the bank.

    Just my 2 cents ;)
    • by sectokia ( 3999401 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @12:32AM (#59329676)
      It all makes sense when you have liberal candidates talking about loan forgiveness and free education. Then you set the entry requirement to zero. Soon the government is giving you a hundred thousand dollars a year to educate whoever you want.
      • by blindseer ( 891256 ) <blindseer@earthli[ ]net ['nk.' in gap]> on Monday October 21, 2019 @01:28AM (#59329746)

        Soon the government is giving you a hundred thousand dollars a year to educate whoever you want.

        Educate them to do what? Be surgeons, lawyers, engineers, professors, scientists, politicians, military leaders, bankers, and social workers? Of course not, because these occupations require an intelligence that is in the top 1/3 of the population. The people that don't have an IQ over about 105, and are admitted to university, will either fail out or end up in an education in something that doesn't require this level of intelligence. Then they end up "educated" with a degree that means nothing to anyone that is looking to hire a professional.

        It's not the education that gets people a good job, it's the work ethic and the intelligence to comprehend and apply this education that gets them a good job.

        Maybe we should be educating people in high school. This way those that have a high school education will be prepared to hold a job. We can't have that though, because that means we'd have to deny people a diploma for not attaining some minimal standards for holding down a job. We could not be so cruel to deny people a high school diploma, so we've made a diploma worthless for determining one is able for the basics of reading, 'riting, and 'rithmatic.

        • I think you're missing the point. The goal is equity among the occupations as well. The next step is to ensure that there are no wealth-earning occupations. For example, Bernie Sanders' healthcare plan includes a 40% pay reduction for physicians. I'll be just like in the Soviet Union - everyone will earn within 2-3 fold of each other no matter the profession. You'll get your alotted apartment based on the size of your family and availability (and how much you bribe the clerk), you'll take the bus to work, a

          • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @07:39AM (#59330350) Homepage Journal

            I googled the 40% claim and it seems to be a wild exaggeration, e.g. https://www.washingtonpost.com... [washingtonpost.com]

            But still, considering your health care is some of the most expensive in the world with very poor outcomes for many people a 40% cut might be quite reasonable. Medicine costs in particular need to come down by way more than 40%.

            And as that article points out some providers will actually get more money under the Sanders system.

            • by cayenne8 ( 626475 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @09:31AM (#59330628) Homepage Journal

              But still, considering your health care is some of the most expensive in the world with very poor outcomes for many people a 40% cut might be quite reasonable. Medicine costs in particular need to come down by way more than 40%.

              It isn't really the Doctor pay that drives the cost up here in the US, it is the middle men, the HMO and bean counter types.

              You combine those with the lawyers and costs of litigation that causes the medical profession to CYA themselves often with multiple expensive tests in excess of what could actually help the diagnosis....but are done for legal coverage reasons.

              We have a lot of those causing the problems.

              Sure, Dr's get paid a lot, but they also sacrifice a lot to get started....the extra years of med school and that debt, the internship, and long hours, etc....

              By the time they are actually out working and earning money, they have to make up time salary wise, and frankly, I don't mind someone working on my body making a very healthy living.

              But it ain't the doctors themselves in the US that drive the costs up so high.

              Lots of other areas to cut way before you hit what a Dr charges in order to make his salary after expenses.

              • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

                I don't disagree, and to be clear the 40% number is a lie. It's actually a 40% reduction in the amount paid to the provider, of which a proportion goes on doctor's pay. It could conceivably be eaten by the provider and the doctor does not see any reduction, or they could stop spending money on those unnecessary tests you mention.

                So really it depends what other reforms happen at the same time, the cut in money is just one aspect of the overall plan that needs to be evaluated as a whole.

              • by meta-monkey ( 321000 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @10:47AM (#59330846) Journal

                Maybe so, but that doesn't change the fact private insurance pays about twice what Medicare pays. If you don't up the payments in M4A, then doctors take a big hit. Given the time, the expense, the difficulty, the sacrifices...doctors are will to put up with that for the big payday at the end. Without the big payday I don't know what that does to the medical field.

              • by sysrammer ( 446839 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:44PM (#59332540) Homepage

                I had shoulder surgery recently. Good doctor, young, talkative. He mentioned that when entering college, he went medical and his friend went industrial. Electrician or whatever. The friend is buying a house. Taking vacations to places.

                The doctor is paying off his loan.

          • Sounds like you buy into the fear mongering conservative propaganda pretty well. Bernie secretly wants to make the US exactly like USSR or Cuba. You think there is absolutely no possibility for a middle ground between ever-increasing wealth inequality and a totalitarian communist state?
            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              Here's the problem. I should have better health care than a 25 year old unemployed schmo who sits on his parents' couch and plays video games all day. Currently I do and I pay for it. Under Warren/Bernie suddenly my kids have the same fucking health care as the schmo.

              If said schmos new health care was as good as mine, I don't mind as long as my costs don't double. However, instead mine will get worse and his will get better and I will pay at least marginally and probably considerably more overall especially

              • I should have better health care than a 25 year old unemployed schmo who sits on his parents' couch and plays video games all day. [...] If said schmos new health care was as good as mine, I don't mind as long as my costs don't double.

                Kinda sounds like you do mind.

                However, instead mine will get worse and his will get better

                The US pays nearly 2x as much per person for healthcare as average first world countries and the outcomes are not great. Near the top for some categories (cancer IIRC), really bad for o

        • It's not the education that gets people a good job, it's the work ethic and the intelligence to comprehend and apply this education that gets them a good job.

          No matter how many times you tell yourself that it won't make it any more true. I bet it makes you feel great about yourself though. Most people making the hiring decisions are not smart enough to even recognize an intelligent person when they meet one and you have to first hire someone to see if they are hard working. Maybe jobs should require IQ test scores, but unfortunately they don't.

        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @07:31AM (#59330334) Homepage Journal

          It's always down to IQ with some people.

          Being a lawyer is not very hard. What it does require is dedication to learning a large amount of material, which is why it's likely to be one of the first clerical jobs to be replaced by AI.

          Bankers are even easier to replace by dumb machines. In fact it's been happening for years now already.

          Most surgeons are also not geniuses, they just have a lot of experience and steady hands. Most surgery is routine and has been made as safe and simple as possible. Again, it's just that you need to study for years and then work in a high pressure job for years to become a surgeon who does those routine operations, not that you need to have great intelligence.

          Anyway if you start blocking people from certain careers based on IQ they will just start gaming the IQ scores, like every other kind of exam.

          • Being a lawyer is not very hard

            You think you're bitching about our stupid, arbitrary way of measuring intelligence but from the above, it's clear that you're just attempting to play-down intelligence itself.

            Par for the course, from you.

            • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              You do realize that most lawyers aren't like the ones on TV, right? Most of their work is making slight modifications to form contracts, wills, helping with house purchases, that sort of thing.

              Actually these days there seem to be a fair few who specialize in spamming DMCA notices, but as evidence of their limited intelligence I point to the fact that they don't even bother check if the receiver is in the US first.

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • Education has value on its own. Voters can either be educated or uneducated - but they still get a vote.

        • Maybe we should be educating people in high school. This way those that have a high school education will be prepared to hold a job.

          We do that already, but it has no effect. Companies love to use degree requirements as an easy to implement filter to throw out applications automatically so they don't have to consider them even when the position should not require a degree.

        • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

          by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @11:37AM (#59331076)
          Comment removed based on user account deletion
          • The lower IQ just go into government work. That is why government is on the list of the top growing jobs category. The end game is when everyone just receives their check directly from the government and do what ever job they are told to do.
      • by dwarfking ( 95773 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @07:02AM (#59330274) Homepage
        Remember free education is not free just as free medical care is not free. It is the government deciding how much it is willing to pay for the service and the universities and doctors either accept what is offered or refuse to take on the students or patients.
        • Remember that you, as an individual, have no real bargaining power against a large corporation. They have no incentive to do anything other than gouge for every penny they can get and you have no choice other than accept it or die (in the case of health care) or condemn yourself to a lifetime of low-paying shit jobs (in the case of education).

          Collective bargaining is the only way to oppose this and we don't have anything of the sort right now beyond an ineffectual government agencies suffering from regulat

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        You have it backwards. The issue is that as the economy transitions from low skill manufacturing and low skill services to jobs that require education the population needs to be educated. Otherwise the economy suffers from a lack of skilled labour and the population suffers from a lack of well paid jobs.

        Developed nations are all facing this problem and the only solution is to help more people access university level education. Loans are one option but it seems like you fucked that up royally, so time to try

        • >The issue is that as the economy transitions from low skill manufacturing and low skill services to jobs that require education

          I see little evidence of that. There are TONS of new jobs, jobs that never existed before, that require minimal intelligence & skill.
          Uber, Lift, Shift, DoorDash, GrubHub, Air B&B, people that collect & charge those scooters, people that repair those simple scooters.

          Nuts, even the number of people who cook at home is dropping like a rock. Every restaurant in town is

          • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

            There are TONS of new jobs, jobs that never existed before, that require minimal intelligence & skill.
            Uber, Lift, Shift, DoorDash, GrubHub, Air B&B, people that collect & charge those scooters, people that repair those simple scooters.

            Yes, but they are all shit jobs with no security and extremely low pay. Are those the jobs you want to build your economy and society on?

            • by Xeth ( 614132 )
              No, but what's the alternative? Just what should low-skill workers be doing? Automation won't stop feeding at the bottom of the barrel. There fortunately aren't that many people that actually top out between ditch digger and backhoe operator, so that transition went OK, without too many people being knocked out of useful existence. But there are plenty between "basic procedure following job" (line cooks, packers, etc.) and genuinely creative ones (research, engineering, art). And a lot of people are going t
              • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

                Ultimately we are going to have to reduce the amount of work we do. 3 day working week and all that.

                I think the vast majority of people can learn to do something productive.

    • "the schools seeing the game is getting close to the end. Now they will accept any candidates who are able and willing to apply for a government school loan."

      Aunt Beckys of the world, we welcome you, your money and (reluctantly) your brats.

    • Music and Art schools have never really been much on SAT scores they have different scales they use.

  • There are many people that have the ability to pass tests regardless of their ability to comprehend or apply the concepts the test is attempting to measure. Likewise, there are many that have the ability to comprehend and apply the same content but don't do well in on a test.

    These tests eliminate a great percentage of those that are clueless, but they also eliminate those that are fully capable of ''grocking'' at a high level. Not all humanity is able to communicate in the same manner. It will be interesti

    • Well, if they get accepted to a school, their progress will also be measured by testing. Seems like an entry test would be a good estimate of the ability to pass school tests later.

  • by dcollins ( 135727 ) on Sunday October 20, 2019 @11:59PM (#59329652) Homepage

    As the number of colleged-aged students is bottoming out, colleges are in a competitive race to the bottom to reduce admissions and graduation standards to keep their numbers, "retention", and income up. Likewise, lots of colleges are in the last year or two abolishing any basic math requirement (like 8th-grade algebra) to graduate.

    Projected population graph here, 2014-2030: http://www.chmuraecon.com/blog/2015/september/15/the-decline-in-college-aged-students/ [chmuraecon.com]

  • Sounds good for the business...

  • by SmaryJerry ( 2759091 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @12:40AM (#59329686)
    SAT tried to take into account area a student lives in and family background. They give a better score based on background "adversity." Colleges are right to ditch the SAT. Is there any better reason to drop a test that is supposed to measure ability than the fact it now measures difficulty in obtaining ability instead?
  • by quenda ( 644621 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @12:50AM (#59329694)

    SAT was introduced so that kids could gain entry on merit, their ability, even without family connections.

    Research has consistently shown that ACT and SAT scores are strongly linked to family income, mother's education level and race.

    Well, of course it is. All those things are highly correlated to scholastic aptitude or IQ, which is what the test is looking for.
    Does the "link" go away when controlling for IQ? That might mean wealthier people are gaining an unfair advantage by coaching their kids for the test, so it no longer reflects their innate ability.

    On average, rich kids are smarter than poor kids, and that correlation increases if their parents accessed higher education based on merit.
    Are we abandoning merit for racial and class quotas?

    • Re: (Score:2, Troll)

      by blindseer ( 891256 )

      Are we abandoning merit for racial and class quotas?

      Of course.

      This will not end well.

    • by nagora ( 177841 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @01:39AM (#59329770)

      The problem is that this reaction is not solving the issue - it's pretending that it doesn't exist. These schools and universities should be looking at ways to eliminate the connection between wealth and education, so that smart kids from anywhere can be found and developed as far as they can go. Instead, they're just pretending that there's no such thing as smart kids and treating everyone the same.

      It's always been the case that people opposing meritocracy tend to be the ones with no merit.

      • by karmatic ( 776420 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @05:08AM (#59330092)

        "These schools and universities should be looking at ways to eliminate the connection between wealth and education"

        That only happens if we eliminate the ability of wealthy parents to educate and provide for their young.

        My parents were poor. They were also smart, and worked hard to educate me. I'm not poor, and my spouse and I are already putting things in place for the children we don't have yet to have access to good education at whatever their level may be.

        Intelligence leads to wealth. It also increases the power of education. We can't compensate for a lack of intelligence by throwing money at it - we've been trying for a long time.

        There's also the race issue, but nobody wants to touch that with a ten foot pole.

        https://www1.udel.edu/educ/got... [udel.edu]

        That's one of the tragedies of affirmative action - when you put children in schools they are not academically prepared for, you end up setting them up to fail.

      • There's also the fact that the USA tends to define merit in terms of wealth, regardless of whether that wealth was earned, inherited or stolen.

    • Are we abandoning merit for racial and class quotas?

      SAT 'Adversity Score' Is Abandoned in Wake of Criticism
      https://www.nytimes.com/2019/0... [nytimes.com]

      Of course, they're only somewhat abandoning it. Even though they've ditched the monolithic "adversity score," the separate socioeconomic criteria are still being made available to schools as context for students' scores

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      If ACT and SAT scores are correlated with income, mother's education level and race (a proxy for poverty) then it seems like it should be possible to intervene and help students with low scores.

      Since your schools system is so badly broken and all the money is in colleges perhaps colleges are a good place to start.

      We can tell that it works by looking at graduation rates.

      • by quenda ( 644621 )

        If ACT and SAT scores are correlated with income, mother's education level and race (a proxy for poverty) then it seems like it should be possible to intervene and help students with low scores.

        Income, mother's education level and race all correlated to hereditary IQ. Obviously in the US, higher IQ often leads to greater educational opportunities and income potential.
        The "A" in SAT stands for "aptitude", which by definition is not something that can be changed. The question is not whether richer kids on average have higher aptitude (they do), but whether the SAT accurately reflects that or if scores are inflated by other factors such as coaching.
        Race is not a "proxy for poverty" - that is just w

    • On average, rich kids are smarter than poor kids

      Used to be more that way; now they're damn near equally stupid on average.

    • "On average, rich kids are smarter than poor kids"

      Careful. They do better because they are more likely to be fed, get sleep, and have access to technology in the home. And the parents have time to oversee things like homework, and maybe hire a tutor. End result is better test scores, not a smarter person.

  • Did people stop to think why colleges wanted to use these tests? This was done to show that the admission process was blind to race, sex, income, etc. The score was a standard by which all could be measured, and based on skills that an applicant would need to be successful at university. These skills being their intelligence in the "three Rs", reading, writing, and 'rithmetic.

    From the fine article:

    Research has consistently shown that ACT and SAT scores are strongly linked to family income, motherâ(TM)s education level and race.

    You know what is also linked to family income, mother's education level, and race? Inherited intelligence.

    • by cowdung ( 702933 )

      Well these tests weren't very good at figuring out how good you are at math either. They ask very simple math problems but expect you to be very fast.

      When I took the test I was doing very well in national math contests that had very tough questions but for which you had a lot of time to solve (you know.. like in college).

      So this thing doesn't really do a good job at measuring your skills. At least it wasn't very good at measuring mine.

      • Well these tests weren't very good at figuring out how good you are at math either. They ask very simple math problems but expect you to be very fast.

        Being fast at simple math correlates well to being able to manage more complex math. This is a test to determine if a person attending high school is suited for education at university. Since high school math rarely goes beyond algebra, trigonometry, and geometry, they have to keep the testing within that set of knowledge. Going above that might give better detail on the applicant's math skills but this is a test for people to get into university, not to graduate from university.

        So this thing doesn't really do a good job at measuring your skills. At least it wasn't very good at measuring mine.

        Then perhaps you should have chosen other options to display your skill to university admission boards.

        The reason SAT and ACT scores are used is because they show high correlation to success at university. The goal isn't to measure precise levels of skill in every subject, but "good enough" for university admission.

    • I'm a fan of standardized tests, but they aren't blind. Lots of kids go to SAT prep classes, private SAT tutors, etc. Also, some schools have SAT prep classes. Those kids are prepared for the TEST. Other kids aren't as fortunate, and are just thrown into the test not knowing what to expect. If you aren't getting lunch, you certainly aren't getting SAT prep classes.

    • There's plenty of evidence that there is a large component of intelligence that is inheritedAnd yet that's still a whole lot less than certain idiots would like to believe.

  • by DatbeDank ( 4580343 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @01:09AM (#59329710)

    Don't let this fact make you think these institutions are doing a charitable thing.

    There's a dirty little secret amonst colleges now. Every major institution is seeing declining enrollment and applications YOY.

    This is a directly caused by the decline in birth rates and outrageous tution costs.

    Not needing sat/act scores is a desperate attempt to boost those numbers.

  • We saw how things went when anybody with a pulse could get a home loan.

    I wonder how things will play out when anybody with a pulse can get a student loan and qualify for just about any college or university. I somehow get the feeling that things won't end well either.

    “History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme.” – Mark Twain

  • by cold fjord ( 826450 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @01:26AM (#59329734)

    . . . like "Diversity Inclusion Equity" or something . . .

    University of Chicago to stop requiring ACT and SAT scores for prospective undergraduates [chicagotribune.com]

    A growing number, including DePaul University, have opted to stop requiring the SAT and ACT in their admissions process, saying the tests place an unfair cost and burden on low-income and minority students, and ultimately hinder efforts to broaden diversity on campus. But the trend has escaped the nation’s most selective universities.

    Isolated trend? Portents of something bigger going in?

    'Social justice warriors' are ruining engineering, prof warns [campusreform.org]
    Engineering professor: Academic rigor enforces 'white male heterosexual privilege' [washingtonexaminer.com]
    Social Justice Culture is Now Infiltrating the Study of Medicine [legalinsurrection.com]
    Doing Physics While Black [mindingthecampus.org]
    TRENDING: Educators work to combat racism, whiteness in math [thecollegefix.com]
    Progressive war on science takes dead aim at math [uncommondescent.com] ("trigger warning")

    What could possibly go wrong?

    A 'Dubious Expediency': How Race-Preferential Admissions Policies on Campus Hurt Minority Students [ssrn.com]
    Why teen girls who are as good at math as male peers pick humanities jobs [nypost.com]
    Asians get the Ivy League's Jewish treatment: Column [usatoday.com]
    Microsoft staff are openly questioning the value of diversity [qz.com]

    Bonus:

    Medieval Studies scholars deem field too white [thecollegefix.com]
    ‘The Unbearable White of Medieval Studies’ [spectator.org]

  • by geowiz ( 571903 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @01:31AM (#59329754)
    education and degree will be ignored. elonmusk already does this. there will be basic abilities testing. that will of course have a hidden iq component in area where that is associated with success. more omportantly will be ability to do tue job. as elon says paraphrased: in an interview i ask HOW a person arrived at the answer to any accomplishment they list. this quickly separates the actual achievers from the posers. (shades of Melanie Griffith in Working Girl) in reality already i discount most degrees and fancy college titles. in fact some of the most famous are now clearly negative. if I jear someone has a PhD my question always is "how did you advance your field of research" if they answer with their thesis i give little credit unless its outstanding. i saw a revealing ted talk about phds recently. 1/1000 people in europe are now getting a phd. it has become simply another marathon run to get a better merit badge rather than the organic mark of distinction for an exceptional acheivement ny someone working in a filed for years. and of course the universities love the long costly path and cheap labor as wrll as owning all IP any phd candidate might create along the way.
  • Replace with ASVAB (Score:3, Insightful)

    by BeemanIT ( 4023223 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @01:43AM (#59329772)

    how about we replace with ASVAB and have those who are physically able to, to serve time in military then have govt pay for education. Hopefully by the time they're done with military they'll know what they want to do with their lives instead of Gender studies.

    • Re: (Score:2, Troll)

      by blindseer ( 891256 )

      how about we replace with ASVAB

      That's an excellent idea. The ASVAB is already built to determine one's fitness for a variety of occupations/ratings/specialties. There's a single composite score that is used to determine if one is even eligible for enlistment. The scores from the individual sections of the test can show one's fitness for certain majors in university.

      and have those who are physically able to, to serve time in military then have govt pay for education.

      You do realize that this already happens, don't you? Of course you do.

      Hopefully by the time they're done with military they'll know what they want to do with their lives instead of Gender studies.

      One way to end this abundance of worthless degrees in "whatever studies" is to base one's ability to

      • Hmm, I have found that some children can be very naive, but generally grown-ups are more sensible when dealing with Vets. I once had to tell a crooked realtor who tried to steal from me: "I'm an Army Officer, working in the Middle East, where once in a while, I need to deal with some really awful people..." The money in question miraculously found its way back to my account very soon after that discussion.
      • Another thing I learned while attending university under the GI Bill is that a lot of people at universities don't like the military. They'll happily take GI Bill money but then have professors tell students in class that people in the military are stupid, racist, rapists, and baby killers. Either they didn't know I was a veteran, or they didn't care.

        When I was in grad school I found quite a few of my classmates had never known anyone in the military and were surprised when they found out I was a veteran. Their outlook was shaped by popular media and it was not that they didn't like the military but they didn't understand it. They didn't know the "military" isn't a monolithic group of similarly minded people, but a group with a broad set of experiences and viewpoints focused on a common mission. I never had a professor that denigrate the military, most

    • how about we replace with ASVAB and have those who are physically able to, to serve time in military then have govt pay for education.

      No one's saying it but the problem with the SAT is that, despite what a pile of shit it's become, it's still too effective at separating out the dummies. If anything, implementing an ASVAB-type test would worsen things: you'd find out that most applicants don't have any aptitude for anything other than a sex change (jury's out on whether they retain the topknot).

  • So studies show that test scores are linked to family income and the mother's education...

    Okay but does that mean the test proves that low income and/or undereducated mothers raise children that cannot keep up or does it show that smart children don't get into college due to their moms/financial situation?

    Because if it's the former, it would be the freaking point of the test and I'd have to agree with another poster here that this smells like a money grab by the schools.

    If it's the latter, it would be a sen

  • While the test-optional list has some schools with specific missions -- there are religious colleges, music and art conservatories, nursing schools

    * religious schools
    Ok

    * music and art conservatories
    Ok

    * nursing schools
    Wtf

  • The year I took the SAT I placed very highly in Math contests and the National Math Olympics (4th and 9th). I also placed 2nd in a National Practical Physics contest. I also did well in Math later in college. However, the Math contests I was good at had few, very very hard questions. The SAT was essentially a speed test. I didn't practice enough so my score, while not terrible, wasn't that awesome either.

    These tests test how well you've studied for them. Not your natural ability.
    I'm glad that for grad schoo

    • Exactly. It means you have practiced the test and can solve the problems quickly. It helps when you have taken/seen the test before, or have had prep classes and know the type of questions. I took the SAT three times and scored better each time, even though the questions were different each time.

  • ...that this means the schools have replaced these relatively objective (but by no means perfect) tests with anything more objective, do you?

    No, the requirement now merely is for someone dumb enough to believe any degree is of equal value ("marketing", "sports medicine"), willing to sign up for some ridiculous lifetime loan, while checking some "diversity" virtue-signaling boxes. The school gets a pile of $ while the student gets debt and a degree likely of little actual value (well, it gives you something

  • In the US, higher education is all about getting a job.

    Scores on any testing can be shown to be generally linked to income, and mother's education. Why? Because mom has the greatest impact on the kids if she stays home. Which mom's stay home? The one's with the dad with the highest income. Or alternatively, the one's that work and can pay for the tutors. Opportunity and outcome are not the same.

    Is this causation? Is race linked? No - it's only correlation. There are many kids who don't have these advantages

  • So how is the SAT/ACT as a predicter of outcomes? The original intent was to get students that will be able to graduate. (Parental education level and race, are strongly connected to graduation rates.) Is there some other way to help students know if they have a chance? Do schools care about the graduation rate at all?
  • The summary conveniently omits the fact that SAT scores are also correlated with the probability of finishing college.

    Could it be that these colleges are lowering the bar so they can collect more tuition?

  • If it's a school focused on art or writing, then they would be better to go by artistic aptitude, which I don't think can be judged by the a test like the SAT.
  • You know when I watched idiocracy I thought it was a sad potential for some distant future but didn't really think it would happen. Now we sit solidly on that path with the collapse seeming to have entered free fall less than a decade ago.

    I mean sure, why base college admissions on proven aptitude that is just silly. It isn't like liberal arts relate to merit anyway.

  • This is all very reminiscent of Thomas Hardy's "Jude the Obscure", a reflection of the changing of British education across the classes in the final decades of the 1800's. In some sense, the conflated issues of education with gender, race, and class in America seem like an recapitulation of late-Victorian era reforms in general. Certainly, British society survived. America will too.
  • by Voice of satan ( 1553177 ) on Monday October 21, 2019 @11:17AM (#59330972)

    I was raised in a country where university is subsidized. Tuition is low, 1k dollars-ish. But if you live far from the cities and you are poor, you are still screwed because the housing expenses are high. The same if you live in a bad place where studying is hard, like a noisy one or a small household where you don't have a place to study.

    Also, there are no requisites for most higher education: Got a high school degree ? You are in ! You suck at maths ? No problem !

    So ? Progressive paradise ? Of course not ! Flunking rates, especially at first year, are very high. After too many failures, you are expelled from the system. Selection of the underclass through failure.

    We had a few ghetto people in my faculty. I recall one who was very happy he had chosen engineering in lieu of physics. Why ? Because engineering has an entrance exam and a low flunking rate while the science faculty has not. 90 % of first year physics students flunked. He came from a bad school so he thought he was unlikely to be part of the happy 10%. He said "if i managed to pass the entrance exam like the others, i have the same chances as the others".

    Passing an entrance exam was reassuring to us. It meant we had decent chances of completing our degree. Also, it served as justification for the prep course we took in high school. It improved the chances of the serious ones and allowed us not to be dragged down by the low requirements of high school in general. It was empowering.

    If you water down the preparation of the disadvantaged, you weaken them even more. Sure, they will enrol in first year. But they will end up dropping out or choosing worthless degrees where the requirements are weak too.

    P.S. What is a "top 100 lib art college !?" Isn't it like a top chart of elevator music ?

"Yes, and I feel bad about rendering their useless carci into dogfood..." -- Badger comics

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