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Education Programming

California Bill Would Require Computer Science For High School Graduation 202

At a press conference last week, a California Assemblymember joined the State Superintendent of Public Instruction in announcing a bill that, if passed, would require every public high school to teach computer science. (And establish CS as a high school graduation requirement by the 2030-31 school year.)

Long-time Slashdot reader theodp says he noticed posters with CS-education advocacy charts and stats "copied verbatim" from the tech giant-backed nonprofit Code.org. (And "a California Dept. of Education news release also echoed Code.org K-12 CS advocacy factoids.") The announcement came less than two weeks after Code.org CEO Hadi Partovi — whose goal is to make CS a HS graduation requirement in all 50 states by 2030 — was a keynote speaker at the Association of California School Administrators Superintendents' Symposium. Even back in an October 20 Facebook post, [California state assemblyman] Berman noted he'd partnered with Code.org on legislation in the past and hinted that something big was in the works on the K-12 CS education front for California. "I had the chance to attend Code.org's 10th anniversary celebration and chat with their founder, Hadi Partovi, as well as CS advocate Aloe Blacc. They've done amazing work expanding access to computer science education... and I've been proud to partner with them on legislation to do that in CA. More to come!"
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California Bill Would Require Computer Science For High School Graduation

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  • by io333 ( 574963 ) on Sunday February 11, 2024 @07:44PM (#64232862)

    Was called "programming" back then. Eventually that went away. Way to be on the ball Cali.

    • It used to be that math was a requirement. States are doing away with that now. hahahahaha

      • I had to supplement my children's education to give them a basic understanding of algebra and pre-calculus. The last of them graduated from HS a few years ago. The district called it a "temporary hiccup" things like Riemann sums and linear programming were not in any available curriculum.

        This country has been chewed up, digested, and is oozing through the sewers now.
        • Linear programming isn't covered in your child's HS, so you had to teach them linear programming.

          Simplex, or did you home-school on the Karmarkar interior-point algorithm?

      • Well, kids failed it and it made us look dumb.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Z80a ( 971949 )

      Back then, when you turned on a computer, it would prompt you with a programming language.
      Nowadays it do everything in its power to stop you from writing your own programs, with many popular devices being impossible to do so without unlocking the hardware.

      • by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Monday February 12, 2024 @03:15AM (#64233524)

        Nowadays it do everything in its power to stop you from writing your own programs

        Except for the dozens of programming languages able to run in a browser on hundreds of websites.

        A $15 Raspberry Pi Zero-W comes with C++, Python, and JavaScript preinstalled, and dozens of other languages installable with a few clicks.

        Programming is more accessible than ever.

        • by coofercat ( 719737 ) on Monday February 12, 2024 @08:49AM (#64233924) Homepage Journal

          > Programming is more accessible than ever.

          Yes and no. Back in the day, you booted up to a BASIC> prompt, and had to type something to make anything happen. In some sense, you were programming, even if you just wanted to play a game.

          Now you've got to *want* to program something to be able to program anything. That is, you've got to specifically seek out some way to do some programming. As such, a kid who doesn't know it's going to be fun might never really try it (unless prodded into it via education/parenting etc).

          I will of course concede that once you want to do some programming, there are so many more resources around to help you do it. And pretty much any error you get can be solved with a couple of web searches. Contrast to back in the day when if you wanted something to work, you had to really fix it because no one else was going to help you at all.

      • by bn-7bc ( 909819 ) <bjarne-disc@holmedal.net> on Monday February 12, 2024 @05:59AM (#64233688) Homepage
        Well Visual studio (and visual stuf\dio code if you want to dick arround with a 100 different exstensions) is only a free download and a bit of time away, C# is not a bad beginner language, esp not lastly with the top level statements the boilerplate is cut down to about 0 for beginners. OFC you stll need admin rights to install sp if you're at a locked down laptop teau that's a problem
    • Oh those classes were AMAZING I can tell you! They let the lowest of the low, the true bottom of the barrel, teach those classes.. the geography and physical education teachers. You know, the ones who had so much time on their hands they could easily squeeze in a whole third subject because they were so lazy and had so little to do in the first two. It was glorious, they would have to get clarifications every lesson, they had significantly less idea than half the class of self taught geeks, programmers, bor

  • by Somervillain ( 4719341 ) on Sunday February 11, 2024 @07:51PM (#64232878)
    With new generations actually being educated, who will be left to propose rewriting backends in node.js? (sorry couldn't resist)
  • by Bruce66423 ( 1678196 ) on Sunday February 11, 2024 @07:53PM (#64232880)

    CS is hard - and a substantial proportion of the population will not pass this. Therefore the quality of the CS offered will be rather low to ensure this doesn't lower graduation levels even further (or they'll hand out passes for nothing... a recent documentary about refugee kids reported than an illiterate kid was getting As and Bs at an Atlanta Middle School).

    • We used to call that "social promotion".

    • by ctilsie242 ( 4841247 ) on Sunday February 11, 2024 @10:41PM (#64233138)

      It depends on what level of CS they are going for. If teaching the basics of "a program does something in steps", "this is what a function does", and stuff along those lines, that sort of makes sense. Even if it is just teaching kids the basics of a PC, like what a filesystem is, what an OS is, how to install an OS, why backups are important, what types of backups... not CS per se, but basic computer literacy. There are people out there who have no ideas where their files are stored because they lived their lives using ChromeBooks or iPads, and the fact that there is so much abstracting hiding /var/mobile (on iOS/iPadOS) away.

      Maybe even a tier of basic cyber-security, just so they are not easy prey for ransomware.

  • by hdyoung ( 5182939 ) on Sunday February 11, 2024 @08:08PM (#64232912)
    I’m 100% for adding a computer SKILLS AND LITERACY requirement. Throw in a requirement related to internet skills and you’ve got a real winner. That stuff is absolutely necessary for anyone who wants to be above the poverty level in today’s world.

    But coding? Sorry, that’s a specialty under-the-hood type of skill. It’s the difference between being able to drive a car, and being able to disassemble and repair your transmission. One of these things is required, and one is a specialty profession.

    This is being pushed by SV types and computer people who are probably brilliant programmers but unable to make buttered toast or navigate a room with more than 15 people in it.

    In any case, the bottom 10 percent of students are near-functionally illiterate and always will be. Coding as a requirement for high school graduation? Ridiculous. And while we’re on the subject. Basic-level algebra/trig, physics, chemistry and biology would all rank higher in importance than coding.
    • by drnb ( 2434720 ) on Sunday February 11, 2024 @09:02PM (#64233006)

      t’s the difference between being able to drive a car, and being able to disassemble and repair your transmission. One of these things is required, and one is a specialty profession.

      To be more explicit, coding is a shop class. Its for those who have a curiosity, to learn if they have aptitude. So you offer an intro class for the curious, and more advanced classes for those with aptitude.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Basic-level algebra/trig, physics, chemistry and biology would all rank higher in importance than coding.

      Why? As skills go, being able to do some basic coding seems like it would have far more practical use in adult life.

      Remember that this is school level. These kids are not going to go straight into a dev job. They might take that skill to university, or they might use it to automate some task in their non-coding job, or it might just teach them to think logically about problems and break them down into algorithms.

      Coding is a very useful skill to have.

      • ... very useful skill to have.

        It's possible to teach that without a language: Logo was developed to teach procedure and thinking spatially (2D) to young children, maths and data were not a priority.

        This requirement won't be CS (maths about doing calculations) and won't be teaching them to use actual tools (telnet, desktop publisher, vector/clip-art editor, spreadsheet, word processor, slide presenter) competently: It'll be a dog-fight between corporations to base the curriculum on their preferred coding language. Similar to everyon

    • More and more of our world has computers embedded in it. The value of teaching coding to kids is not to turn them all into programmers. Its to demystefy coding. When they make the stupid mistakes in coding class they will realize computers are not perfect and coding can always have errors. Than as they navigate our more and more computerized society they will know it instinctually to not always trust the computers otherwise you get thing like people driving off cliffs because GPS told them there is a bridge
  • Why? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by dskoll ( 99328 ) on Sunday February 11, 2024 @08:12PM (#64232922) Homepage

    AI will be doing this all in 10 years time. Why train kids for obsolete professions?

    I truly don't know whether or not to add a /s tag.

    • by Jhon ( 241832 )

      It's not "why", it's "why bother".

      CA is doing horrible producing students who have a good understanding of English and math. With even our poor graduation rates (lower than 85%), it's even worse than that because we've lowered our standards to achieve even that.

  • Programming teaches logical thinking and how to break problems down in to solvable pieces. Hell, just BASIC is fine.

  • by poity ( 465672 ) on Sunday February 11, 2024 @08:23PM (#64232944)

    And maybe guide them through the process of forming a business entity to minimize taxes on their gig work income?

    • And maybe guide them through the process of forming a business entity to minimize taxes on their gig work income?

      I wonder if this proposal stated what would be dropped to make room for this. Personally, as a programmer, I can think of a ton of other things I'd add first: American history, English, economics, civics, European history, psychology, non-western history, music (either performance or appreciation), languages, home economics, shop, business, how to detect bulls**t on social media. Or how about we make sure California students are competent at the curriculum we already have?

    • by bn-7bc ( 909819 )
      Tax law is complex, better outsource that to a professional sp the IRS don't slap you with a painful fine later. Yea I know it's extra exspence (yha last thing a startup in any sector needs, but just call it insurance an swallow the cost along with all the rest of the insurance you might need (depending on what your gig work is in).
  • by drnb ( 2434720 ) on Sunday February 11, 2024 @08:39PM (#64232962)
    Computer Science is not a high school topic, at best it will be an introduction to computer programming. In reality, such a class is a shop class not a core class. You offer it to kids who might be curious, and for those who have an interest you offer more. Just like metal shop, auto shop, etc. You don't force ill-prepared kids to take a programming class.

    A computer literacy class, where they learn about word processors, spreadsheet, how the internet usually lies and email and texts with links are usually malware. Yeah, that could be a required class for all, unlike programming.

    A real Computer Science class is an advanced placement level class for kids taking the advanced math classes. Its not for everyone.
    • Computer Science is not a high school topic, at best it will be an introduction to computer programming.

      I took computer classes in high school. The first semester "Computer I" class was mostly about what I'd call "computer literacy", how to perform basic operations on a computer and an introduction to various applications like a word processor, spreadsheet, database, drawing/graphics, and so on. The second semester "Computer II" class did have some programming and basics of the science like different sorting algorithms and how to build our own database.

      With computers being introduced to children at much you

      • by drnb ( 2434720 )
        Our naming conventions are different but I don't think our respective classes are that different. Wood Shop I, Metal Shop I, Auto Shop I are just the intro and basics classes. That's about all school's push students to take. Beyond that was strictly elective. II and III of the series can get into quite advanced topics. Shop classes can get quite involved, real world vocational. III probably where AP would start.
    • nailed it!

      Yes, it's really just going to be a basic computer class and it should be. They had typing class in most schools since the 80s I believe but it was not required when I was in school. That should be part of a computer class. ALL people deal with computers today so a basic foundation should be required. A tiny taste of what more there is to hook the interested in doing more on their own. A laptop rental program or something for the ones without a real computer is a good idea. Online self-learning

  • by dsgrntlxmply ( 610492 ) on Sunday February 11, 2024 @08:41PM (#64232966)
    In 2006 I was pulled aside by a chemistry professor (California 4-year system) needing a sounding board for frustration that over 40% of that semester's freshman chemistry class was lost to drop or fail. This course is a foundational requirement for all sciences, CS, and pre-clinical fields. It is in high demand, and constrained by available lab seats. The principal causes for failure were basic study habits and deficiency in ordinary algebra. The department instituted a qualifying exam and no-credit remedial pre-chemistry classes.
  • I hear they're taking reading off the SATs down there lately.

  • You can't force kids to learn how to program. No one would hire a kid that was forced to do it. You have to want to learn it and most schools already have some computer course as an elective already. Besides, the barrier to entry and self-education is almost non-existent these days.

    I'd rather they invest some time into developing life skills like personal finance and trade skills like auto shop. My mechanic says there is a dearth of mechanics, especially young mechanics with basic skills that would like

    • especially if they are employees of a dealership or large auto-repair shop.

      But, hey, so are people who code!

      • Who told you that? The basic grunt won't get anything. You just have to stick with it a while, earn your stripes, get your certs. If you're a master diesel mechanic you are making more than most college grads.
      • EVs are a lot simpler and need little maintenance. Most of it will be just replacement of large parts instead of repair. We are going to need far less auto mechanics going forward. Think TV repairmen. Not many around anymore. Nowadays electronics are so cheap and so compactly packed when something goes bad you dont repair , you replace. Same is going to happen with cars as the complexity goes down to a level where repair is not possible and and at repairable scales there wont be much repair needed.
  • by WindBourne ( 631190 ) on Sunday February 11, 2024 @09:38PM (#64233044) Journal
    Quit wasting $
    CA's public school is decaying fast. There are undeveloped nations with SUPERIOR school systems to CA's public schools.
    CA, in fact America, needs to focus on getting our core right esp. in the primary schools. In secondary, for first 2 years, expand on that, and then allow for last 2 to move ppl into arenas that make sense. It makes no sense for someone that is not going to go to higher education to take up C. Sci. Instead, make sure that they have REAL LIFE SKILLS.
  • Sure, if more people knew what a linked list was, we'd live in a better world.

      At the very least this will give young people the opportunity to discover if they might have an unexpected aptitude for the subject.

  • by zkiwi34 ( 974563 )
    But no one will care. Why? Because there a) are not enough CS teachers, and no plan to recruit, train and retain them, and b) an almost certainty that it will never be funded and resourced properly, and c) will have no interest or involvement by colleges (they never have), and d) have not even the pretence of preparing kids for a future major or minor in CS. Noting that I was suckered into rubber stamping CS standards for CA. Even then it was apparent that Google was driving this. What for? Still not appar
  • As a computer geek, it seems like requiring computer geeks to advance in sports and social gatherings.
  • This is my state, and it never ceases to amaze me that the limits are off on the stupid here in our government.

    California schools are currently turning out highschool graduates who are dumber than ever before. They lack math skills, English skills, knowledge of history, geography, government, basic science etc, but they know how to deploy condoms and dental dams, are pretty sure there are 50+ human genders, and think the state was once racially segregated (it never was) and hosted slavery (never did). Into

  • In China there are local places to buy electronics. Fry's, Weird Stuff, HSC, and Radio Shack gone. We can only hope than Anchor Electronics can hold out.
  • I did some tutoring in a fairly low achieving school where fifth graders were taking a (I think required) "computer science" class. I was surprised - until it turned out it was mostly learning how to use Word and should have been called something else (perhaps "computer applications").

    Students certainly should be able to use and build a basic spreadsheet and use a basic word processing application before graduating from high school. This might be done thorough a "computer literacy" class -- but certainly sh

    • By calling the class "Computer Science" the school can check off a required box on government mandates.

    • What I've seen ranges from basic computer understanding which is sorely needed as the college students I see are pathetic and a step back from previous generations. A few almost never used a computer because they had a smart phone instead... and they thought the charger *was* the USB cable! (not the "butt" that they plugged into the wall...their term not mine.)

      I've seen AP inspired too; it was embarrassing and even wrong at points but looked like it had a lot of discrete math... now Discrete Math wouldn't h

      • by bn-7bc ( 909819 )
        well they wher half right and half wrong, sinche the charger has to be adapted to the specific battery pack in the device what they plug inro tha wall socket is really a psu. But I agree calling a USB cable a charger is kind of shocking, at a stretch I would them calling it a charging cable since they have probably only used it for charging. But yea I'm nitpicking here
  • California Bill...is he in any way related to Florida Man? I think we should be told.

  • Bigger Question (Score:5, Insightful)

    by RitchCraft ( 6454710 ) on Sunday February 11, 2024 @11:18PM (#64233188)

    Where are you going to get the teachers for this? I was a high school computer science teacher for 18 years. I have a background in programming. During my two year course I taught students computer repair (CompTIA A+), networking (Network+ and the first two semesters of CCNA), and programming. Programming was a 9 week introduction using Python. To keep the students engaged and interested I used game programming techniques. The students I had were already interested in technology and had to apply for the 50 seats available per year. Even then only about 20% of the students actually could make sense of programming, and of those maybe one to three each year actually had true potential. To my point, where are you going to find enough programming teachers with a programming background? Simple answer, you are not. Schools will end up retasking math teachers to teach something like Scratch. You know, with great programming theory like, "think of a variable as a bucket you can put things into." That scenario alienates those that actually have potential, or at least get it, because it's being dumbed down so much. You need teachers that have actually programmed to teach a programming class.

  • One will only teach something if God Corporate asks them to, because it needs more drones with a certain skillset. The other will only teach material that gives them warm fuzzies, like that's the proper rubric for producing strong thinker citizens.
  • Most people won't be designing software or computer internals.

    How about focusing on math, reading, speaking and writing? For bonus basic business and finances? Many graduates seem to have a problem with all those things, and a good job and good personal life can use those fundamental things.

    I had not one computer class and I'm making a living in devops. A high schooler needs computer science like a fish needs a bicycle.

  • by Required Snark ( 1702878 ) on Monday February 12, 2024 @12:30AM (#64233308)
    Don't get your knickers in a twist, this is not about education, it's about fundraising.

    The three primary sponsors ar all in the Bay Area Caucus, i.e. Silicon Valley. One represents Menlo Park. They are doing this so that when they knock on the doors on the doors of moneybags types in their districts they have a talking point. It's low hanging fruit. If they were in agricultural areas it would be about farming/agribusiness, say in rural California. If it was the South it would be about putting Jesus in the classroom. (BTW, this is one of the next targets of Republicans, the end of church/state separation.)

    It's all about how legislation is for sale to the highest bidder. When push comes shove, your vote can be negated by special interests who write big checks.

    In the current budget crunch in California this is going nowhere, but it shows how things really work.

  • Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gweihir ( 88907 ) on Monday February 12, 2024 @12:55AM (#64233348)

    All I see here is "cargo cult teaching". CS and even coding is not something people generally need or want or are good at.

    Is this still about some way-too-large IT enterprises wanting cheaper coders? That will not work.

  • ...in some countries around the world. In many others, it's just accepted as a requirement for good jobs, English being the international language of science, commerce, & diplomacy, so everyone takes it whether it's compulsory or not. English is incredibly useful in many different ways for the majority of people.

    & BTW, where I am & elsewhere that I've seen, there's no "graduation" from high school; everyone takes a bunch of exams & selective post-secondary institutions set their own pref
    • Then again, 'Murica could just continue with the popular narrative that criminality & violence are the best ways to succeed in life, as promoted by some of their most successful film & TV franchises. Failed high school? Why not steal cars or rob banks for a living? The USA has a long history of idolising criminals.
  • It's not computer science - I very much they are going to cover topics like theory of computing and information, algorithms, big O notation, etc. If anything, it will be nothing but code monkeying.

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