Airlines Required To Refund Passengers For Canceled, Delayed Flights (go.com) 77
Department of Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg announced new rules for the airline industry that will require airlines to automatically give cash refunds to passengers for canceled and significantly delayed flights. They will also require airlines to give cash refunds if your bags are lost and not delivered within 12 hours.
"This is a big day for America's flying public," said Buttigieg at a Wednesday morning news conference. According to Buttigieg, the new rules are the biggest expansion of passenger rights in the department's history. ABC News reports: Airlines can no longer decide how long a delay must be before a refund is issued. Under the new DOT rules, the delays covered would be more than three hours for domestic flights and more than six hours for international flights, the agency said. This includes tickets purchased directly from airlines, travel agents and third-party sites such as Expedia and Travelocity.
The refunds must be issued within seven days, according to the new DOT rules, and must be in cash unless the passenger chooses another form of compensation. Airlines can no longer issue refunds in forms of vouchers or credits when consumers are entitled to receive cash. Airlines will have six months to comply with the new rules.
The DOT said it is also working on rules related to family seating fees, enhancing rights for wheelchair-traveling passengers for safe and dignified travel and mandating compensation and amenities if flights are delayed or canceled by airlines. Buttigieg said the DOT is also protecting airline passengers from being surprised by hidden fees -- a move he estimates will have Americans billions of dollars every year. The DOT rules include that passengers will receive refunds for extra services paid for and not provided, such as Wi-Fi, seat selection or inflight entertainment.
"This is a big day for America's flying public," said Buttigieg at a Wednesday morning news conference. According to Buttigieg, the new rules are the biggest expansion of passenger rights in the department's history. ABC News reports: Airlines can no longer decide how long a delay must be before a refund is issued. Under the new DOT rules, the delays covered would be more than three hours for domestic flights and more than six hours for international flights, the agency said. This includes tickets purchased directly from airlines, travel agents and third-party sites such as Expedia and Travelocity.
The refunds must be issued within seven days, according to the new DOT rules, and must be in cash unless the passenger chooses another form of compensation. Airlines can no longer issue refunds in forms of vouchers or credits when consumers are entitled to receive cash. Airlines will have six months to comply with the new rules.
The DOT said it is also working on rules related to family seating fees, enhancing rights for wheelchair-traveling passengers for safe and dignified travel and mandating compensation and amenities if flights are delayed or canceled by airlines. Buttigieg said the DOT is also protecting airline passengers from being surprised by hidden fees -- a move he estimates will have Americans billions of dollars every year. The DOT rules include that passengers will receive refunds for extra services paid for and not provided, such as Wi-Fi, seat selection or inflight entertainment.
Catching up with the EU then (Score:5, Informative)
This has been law in the EU for probably a decade already, maybe longer. Though the airlines still try and wriggle out of it using act-of-god and other special exceptions when they don't apply and as it has proven - its one thing having a law, its another thing enforcing it when you're dealing with a multinational and legal systems that are already overloaded with more important matters.
Re: Catching up with the EU then (Score:2)
My understanding is that this goes further than what is currently in place in the EU. The word "automatically" is used repeatedly whereas in the EU you need to request a refund (and provide detailed info about the flight). I am not aware of EU protection about lost luggage either, although that might just be me being uninformed.
Re: Catching up with the EU then (Score:4, Informative)
Yes and no. Automatically does sound like a step up, but the "and provide detailed info about the flight" is not a thing. You typically just give them your flight number and be done with it. I've been through this process a few times. The only time it has every been in any way complicated is when I was rebooked by the airline to a non-partner airline which then also turned out to be delayed and then KLM and TAP spent months bickering about who would pay me.
And yes there's lost / damaged luggage rules in the EU as well, maximum compensation limit is 1300EUR. That said this law seems to be more strict with its 12 hour window. AFAIK there's no legal mandate for delayed luggage in the EU, just lost or damaged.
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Re: Catching up with the EU then (Score:2)
Important to note Jet Blue and Spirit are among the cheapest options in the world. You sort of get what you pay for. European flights are not much different from American on average, but at the low end with major destinations, American flights are notably cheaper. Essentially, Americans usually pay for lack of competition, but where there is competition, the carriers operate at lower prices.
Sure, I would prefer a European style of competition, but you need to compare apples to apples, and there isn't really
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Yes and no. Automatically does sound like a step up, but the "and provide detailed info about the flight" is not a thing. You typically just give them your flight number and be done with it. I've been through this process a few times. The only time it has every been in any way complicated is when I was rebooked by the airline to a non-partner airline which then also turned out to be delayed and then KLM and TAP spent months bickering about who would pay me.
And yes there's lost / damaged luggage rules in the EU as well, maximum compensation limit is 1300EUR. That said this law seems to be more strict with its 12 hour window. AFAIK there's no legal mandate for delayed luggage in the EU, just lost or damaged.
Yep, had to go all the way to CASA with my Air Europa claim who continually denied it even though the reason for the delay (jetbridge hitting the aircraft) was literally listed on the EU's site as eligible for compensation. Still would rather have the laws even if they aren't perfect, if this had happened in the US or Australia I wouldn't see anything from a 10 hour delay (that turned into a 24 hour delay as I missed my once-a-day connecting flight in Madrid). It took six months to get the £520 owed b
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Both the EU and the USA have signed the signed and ratified the Montreal Convention, hence the lost baggage protection is more or less the same.
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Both the EU and the USA have signed the signed and ratified the Montreal Convention, hence the lost baggage protection is more or less the same.
... if you are on an international flight.
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Domestic flights in the EU are not that common - with a notable exception of the Nordic countries. I suppose most of the EU simply copied the Monteral Convention statutes into their national passenger aviation laws so the same rules would apply for domestic flights as well. I know for sure my country did.
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Domestic flights in the EU are not that common - with a notable exception of the Nordic countries
Yes, but this whole story is about the USA, where only 43% of the population even have a passport (and don't have access to something like the Schengen Zone).
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Domestic flights in the EU are not that common - with a notable exception of the Nordic countries
Yes, but this whole story is about the USA, where only 43% of the population even have a passport (and don't have access to something like the Schengen Zone).
What's really sad is that it wasn't always that way. When I was a kid, we went to Canada and Mexico all the time, and we never had passports. The passport requirement wasn't introduced for travel by land until 2009 for Canada and 2008 for Mexico (and previously, in 2007 for travel by air to Canada or Mexico). You still had to go through customs at the border, but it was nothing like what people have to deal with today.
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That's more or less it. You have to know to claim compensation and chase up the airline to get it. They sure as hell won't tell you, or automatically credit you with compensation. That probably means if a flight is delayed that only a fraction of the people will bother to go to the effort which might involve chasing down the forms and filling them in.
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Airlines are required to tell you in the EU of your EU261 rights.
And the offer they have to make includes either a refund or rerouting at the earliest opportunity via a comparable means, which includes using competitors.
The compensation is in addition to the refund or rerouting.
That is why its not “automatic” in the EU - you still have the right to choose the option, the airline cant simply dump you and give you your money back, if you insist on getting to where you need to go then they need to
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Yeah, I think the change here is that you now have the right to be compensated for the inconvenience of flight and luggage delays in addition to your Montreal convention rights.
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EU261 is easier to enforce in Europe, as their national enforcement bodies usually have direct ability to enforce, rather than having to rely on the ability to sue to enforce (which is how enforcement is often done in the US by government bodies).
Which means that yes airlines can attempt to get out of it, but the enforcement body can just say “no, pay up” and its the airline that then has to sue the enforcement body and prove its case in civil court. Which means that EU261 court cases are few a
Re:Catching up with the EU then (Score:5, Interesting)
The EU is even stricter. If your plane is delayed by a certain number of hours you can also be claim compensation that varies depending on the delay and the flight duration. The funniest example of this happening to me & family catching a Virgin flight from Orlando to Manchester (back when the UK was in the EU). Takeoff was delayed by nearly 5 hours and the pilot floored it hoping to land under 4 hours but ultimately the flight took 4 hours and 2 minutes which was above the compensation threshold. We were able to claim 600 euro *each* for the delay which is more back than we paid for the return flight in the first place.
The interesting part to this is that of course Virgin *never* mentioned to customers they could claim compensation. But they absolutely knew they could get reamed because when the plane disembarked there were reps handing out snacks and drinks to the people coming off. The airline's calculus must be that most passengers (especially from the US) were ignorant of their rights or could be assuaged by a chocolate bar and wouldn't research the matter further. But I knew and made the claim which paid for half the holiday. We also helped ourselves to their free snacks too.
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they absolutely knew they could get reamed because when the plane disembarked there were reps handing out snacks and drinks
They did not do it out of good will or to buy your silence. They could not escape providing food and drinks since the delay was above clearly 2 hours or whatever value it is. (They were hoping for the pilot to make it in 3 hours 59.) Major airlines don't handle snacks though, they let you in the VIP lounge (if you know your rights) and you help yourself.
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They had no obligation to provide snacks after we landed. That was just a cynical calculus to placate & cancel negative thoughts in passengers about the delay they just suffered. Even if one or two people on the whole flight don't claim because they got a "free" chocolate bar then its obviously worth it to the airline.
BTW I looked up delays and the threshold for 600 euro compensation on a >3500km flight is 3 hours not 4, so either I misremembered or the rules changed since this happened 5 years ago.
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Thanks, you're right, assistance (food) is due for delays on departure, not after arrival. BTW here's the link in case anyone else needs to check https://europa.eu/youreurope/c... [europa.eu]
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Actually the EU rules aren't stricter.
EU allows room to significantly change flights without refunds. This new ruling does not and requires a full refund be given.
EU does not force compensation automatically. You said it yourself, you weren't even told compensation was an option on your flight.
EU does not put a time limit on how quickly compensation needs to be processed. It's taken me sometimes months to get the compensation, here they require 7 days.
EU does not mandate compensation for delayed baggage. Th
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EU airlines are obliged to provide a refund or compensation and/or return flights at the earliest opportunity in the case of cancellation depending on circumstances and what the customer wants. Also things like accommodation, food etc. It's much stronger than what the US is announcing, covering overbooking, downgrades, connecting flights etc as you can see from the website [europa.eu]. Even in terms of what kinds of circumstance trigger compensation it is stronger.
The only significant change I see is US airlines have t
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I got a nice bump up from British Airlines when they were unable to run a scheduled flight I had booked. They told us about half an hour before take-off that it was cancelled, so I immediately booked with ANA for a few hours later. That happened to be a first class upgrade, but it was the only seat they had, so I was entitled to it and BA had to pay the price which IIRC was around £4,500, when I only paid them about £800.
These days I always go with ANA or JAL anyway, BA have been ter
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This has been the law in the US as well, just few people know about it and the airlines still try to wriggle out of it. According ot the FAA previously if any part of your flight was cancelled, you were entitled for an up to 300% refund for the distance that was not covered by the airline on top of vouchers which are a customer retention and settlement tool. These regulations actually reduce the liability.
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Israel has a similar law. On Oct 7th United stranded me in the US. No accommodation, not even minimal attempt to find me an alternative flight, of course no food. When I asked to wait it out in Conneticuit, where I could crash at a friend's house, they wanted over $5300 for the added stop.
I had to sue them in small claims. I'm still waiting for the court date to see how it goes, but I'm fairly optimistic I'll get at least something.
Someone pissed of the wrong politician? (Score:3)
Re:Someone pissed of the wrong politician? (Score:5, Insightful)
They use the regular airlines too, not all of them fly on Air Force One.
An other thing: election year, most airline travelers are registered voters.
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Someone for sure pissed of the wrong politician to get this thing pushed trough.
I’d wager more than one of it got passed into law.
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Don't be so sure the airlines don't want this. Next time the IT guy at southwest does an oopsie they will automatically issue refunds, instead of issuing refunds AND paying a fine.
Bonus Refund For Parts Falling Off During Flight (Score:1)
Or maybe like a mini gambling hub and you can put your money on an engine cover or window?
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Re:Will this lead to more canceled flights? (Score:5, Interesting)
What did happen, though, was the airlines adding a lot of buffer time to their timetables so the flight that used to take 90 minutes is now scheduled as a two hour flight.
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It's going to be hard to "cancel" a flight most of the time, when the plane still needs to be positioned at the destination later. I don't know if they can claim it's canceled if the plane still flies to the destination empty.
Here's your refund. Our contract has ended. (Score:1)
Re: Here's your refund. Our contract has ended. (Score:2)
Per the article :
The DOT rules lay out that passengers will be "entitled to a refund if their flight is canceled or significantly changed, and they do not accept alternative transportation or travel credits offered.
So the airlines must offer to rebook first, and if that offer is declined, must refund. They can't unilaterally cancel the flight and refund. I wonder about the details, though. If they offer a 3 connection, 80 hour itinerary across 4 different countries, in place of a 5hr nonstop flight, it woul
Australia still in the Dark Ages of Airline abuses (Score:5, Informative)
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Yeah Australian airlines are a shitshow, but that baggage part is not an Australianism. Many airlines are not responsible for baggage and will outsource it to a dedicated logistics business that operates at a variety of airports. E.g. when I go and check in on Monday with Iberia Airlines the second my bag hits that conveyor it will be the responsibility of Swissport AG. It may be on my flight, it may not be, there's no requirement anywhere for the bag to be on your flight, and in fact people are separated f
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I know you sort of said this, but it's worth repeating: outsourcing doesn't absolve you of responsibility for who you hired.
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You and I are talking about two different responsibilities. Legal responsibility stays with the airline, but physically responsible is the person who they contracted it to. I contracted out to have dormers built on my roof. What's the state of the pre fab? No idea, I'm not the one building it, we'd need to talk to the company I contracted. Contracts do not come with automagical mind reading system.
In most airports a ground services contractor's desk is available to talk to. I see only downsides in having mu
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To hell with KLM. They lose bags and actively lie about it.
In 2017 my ex and I were flying to Stockholm (LAX-AMS-ARN), and one of our bags apparently got lost at AMS. To make things worse, we were getting on a cruise ship the next day.
I pretty much spent four days dealing with KLM, and they consistently lied to me about the status of the missing bag. Until I realized that I had purchased the tickets with American Express. I contacted Amex Global Assist and let them deal with KLM. Four days later, the
Re:Australia still in the Dark Ages of Airline abu (Score:4, Insightful)
From the day they came out I got apple airtags, and this is one of their most brilliant jobs -- tracking luggage: chuck an airtag in your bag, then you can see it pretty much realtime.
All it takes is one iphone from anyone around it to "hear" that tag, and you'll know where your bag is, regardless of what lies the airline tells you. In remote or sparsely-populated areas this could take a while, especially at night -- but eventually someone with an iphone will walk past your bag, that phone will "hear" the tag, and you'll know where your bag is.
I'll note that last year (or the year before?) Lufthansa had tried to make airtags "illegal" to put in luggage but quickly was shot down by some EU regulator or another.
Gee, I wonder why Lufthansa didn't like airtag.. has nothing do do with "safety," being as how they're powered by a CR2023 coin cell, but more like "We don't want you to know where your bag is. It is where we say it is!"
Fuck 'em. Fuck all of 'em. Every time I fly, I have an airtag on my backpack and another in my suitcase.
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AirTags were not available in 2017.
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AirTags were not available in 2017.
But they are now, and chances are some other airline will lose your bags again. Get some and keep an eye on your bags, because the airlines can't be assed to.
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Gee, I wonder why Lufthansa didn't like airtag.. has nothing do do with "safety," being as how they're powered by a CR2023 coin cell, but more like "We don't want you to know where your bag is. It is where we say it is!"
The answer is simple for airlines. Airtags generate completely pointless customer service interactions and make customers angrier. The fundamental problem is that bags are rarely lost. They are always somewhere, they have multiple barcodes on them, they are part of a complex system of getting from their wrong location to the right location, and that system itself has zero ability to deal with irate customers.
Your bag is somewhere. A ground services contractor responsible will eventually scan it in a big pil
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Don't confuse lying with incompetence. KLM is slow at responses. I have gotten the occasional email from them out of date. "It's time to check in for your flight" Bitch please I'm already at my destination.
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Australian Airlines are still in the dark ages, and can screw the passenger for all its worth. From no person answering the phones, ignored emails, and unaccountability for cancelled flights. Recently when using 'Credits' the price of the airfare jumped up Vs no credits. I think the best was a First Class Businessman who bags did not arrive was told 'Here, call this number - missing bags have nothing to do with us (when bags contained conference display samples) defeating the cost of flying over in the first place. In Australia, in some cases, the bags do NOT go on the same plane - and you are not told this when you check in - nor told at the other end. Workers illegally fired during covid have not been compensated yet - no triple damages here ! Our politicians are cheaply bought off.
I should explain to our European and American viewers playing along at home, Australian airlines means QANTAS, who have the lions share of the Australian domestic market and a significant share of the international market. Virgin Australia is the only national competitor and they have many of the same problems as QANTAS, REX gets rave reviews but their network is tiny in comparison.
As an Australian, I'd rather swim to London than fly QANTAS, after stranding 40,000 of their own customers just to screw ove
We need this in Australia... (Score:2)
There has been talk of introducing some sort of rules for compensation and things in Australia but the airlines have lobbied hard against it.
Any argument the airlines make that such a scheme will push up airfares is BS, the EU has had a scheme for years now and you can still get dirt cheap tickets on low-cost airlines like Ryanair.
This is UN-AMERICAN! (Score:5, Funny)
The only thing that matters in America is making the C-suite as rich as possible as fast as possible. Nothing else is important. The business-speak for this is "shareholder value", but the shareholders are just an excuse to raise the stock price. Since exec payout is a healthy multiple of stock price, the benefit to the execs is the real point. That's what counts.
Given how much money is spent on lobbying and campaign contributions, it's only fair that the law enforce guaranteed executive compensation. And ultra-low taxes at the top end. The one-percent has paid to own the government, and like any investment it must have a high yield payout. If the politicians don't do their job protecting the rich they should be fired like any worker who can't keep up. Inefficiency, or being old or sick is no excuse. Shape up or end up in the gutter where you belong.
Boeing is the ultimate success story in American big business. The upper management had twenty year of incredible payouts while they drained the company dry. They walked away with all the loot and they are now fully funded members of the American oligarchy. They and their decedents will live the high life pretty much forever. No matter what lies you've been fed, the vast bulk of wealth in America is inherited. Once a family gets to the top it's a multi-generational ride. Occasionally someone falls off the gravy train, but the train keeps on running no matter what.
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WHy dO you hAtE aMeRiKKKa, YOU DiRTy coMMie?
GEEZ ... spot the compromised /. account ... as if a compromised /. account is worth anything
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If people want to get as much for the goods and services(work) that they provide, while paying as little as possible for the good and services they consume, why isn't it fair that businesses do the same?
if nothing else (Score:2)
...the administration's dawning realization that they might indeed lose to Trump in November prompts them to actually enact regulations like this, it might make an election year actually worthwhile instead of the the misery it otherwise usually is.
Wow, first the non-competes ... (Score:2)
... checks calendar - yep, election year.
Still, I'll take it, lol!
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This is actually a reduction of the prior liability which was 300% of any leg of the flight that was cancelled in addition to alternative transportation. This basically guts the FAA's current rules on it and is going to leave a lot more people stranded, because now 'regulations tell us' that you get cash and fuck off.
Perhaps I've just been lucky.... (Score:4, Informative)
I recently had United cancel the flight for a family vacation literally the night before the departure date. They offered to find me another flight, but there wasn't an immediately available flight with them. A couple of clicks later and I was issued a refund. No arm twisting or drama required. I ended up using another carrier so I could still fly out on the original departure date and the refund credit showed up on my credit card account a few days later.
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Half hour delay at a time (Score:1)
DoT (Score:2)
It's too bad that it took DoT to enforce the most basic tenets of commerce law when ostensibly that's the Courts' job or even the FTC when courts fail.
Good to see corruption only wins 99% of the time!
Pulling away from gate should be a delay (Score:2)
Re: Pulling away from gate should be a delay (Score:2)
We shouldn't be calling them refunds; they should be called "penalties"
Deliberate overbooking (Score:2)
Now they just need to make the standard overbooking illegal. "But we need to overbook so we can break even" No mate, you need to charge fares that break even without fraudulently selling seats that are already reserved. "But then we'll be running below capacity when people don't show" Right, mate. But those no-shows have *paid* for the seat they aren't occupying. See previous answer and don't or rebook refund no-shows. "But then air travel will be more expensive." Oh, such a tragedy that passengers pay the
In related news... (Score:2)
details? (Score:3)
We need to know the details, or maybe this will be how it works:
"Sorry, your $200 flight has been cancelled. You will need to rebook for tomorrow. Here is your $200 back.
"Sir, your flight you are booking for tomorrow does not qualify for economy fare; lowest available fare is $1500."
How about 'if you sell a ticket' someone flies (Score:1)
No more overselling seats. You can only sell each seat on a flight one time, to one person.
Airlines will just pad flight time even more (Score:1)
Stupidest Sentence - Half-nalysis (Score:1)